Roof Shenanigans- E85 2003/08 Production Model

A

ann.nonco

Member
Hi all, hope all is well!

I've recently had some issues with my BMW Z4's roof that hasn't been working of such.
The situation is as follows,
  • When the roof is closed - no lights/button pressed no response
    When the roof is manually opened - red light flashing
    When the roof is manually closed - red light flashing then after a while light disappears.

I've manually tried opening it using INPA but it does not work unless(!!) if I manually close the microswitch in the boot.
The metal hook is still there and there is an audible click when the contacts close so physically it looks fine.

When I put an object in the microswitch (closing the contact) strangely pressing close on INPA will fully operate the roof normally and lock it.
I can't seem to close it while the microswitch is manually closed (with the object placed earlier) so when I remove it and open the contact - INPA close function seems to properly close the roof.

All my error codes is just one at AUSSENTEMPERATUR (temp in German) at 12 GRAD C (Celsius).

Would this perhaps be a simple issue of replacing the microswitch and temperature sensor on the car?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you. :D
 
ann.nonco said:
When I put an object in the microswitch (closing the contact) strangely pressing close on INPA will fully operate the roof normally and lock it.
I can't seem to close it while the microswitch is manually closed (with the object placed earlier) so when I remove it and open the contact - INPA close function seems to properly close the roof.
Click to expand...

I’ve reread that many times and I still can’t work it out what works and doesn’t.

You could unscrew the rear micro switch and short the contacts temporarily. That will rule out that as an issue.
Your parcel shelf should be pushing it down so just make sure that’s down or out of the way.

The red flashing lights are just confirming that the hall sensors are registering the roof as not fully open or closed.

Do you never get an amber flashing light?
 
[ref]ann.nonco[/ref], are you in the UK?
If so, whereabouts. Maybe one of us could take a look?
 
Thank you for all your replies!

@markplant
My right side door works fine (both up and down), while my left door opens fully with the one touch function but requires a constant pull to go back up.
As a Japan spec vehicle I was told that this was a safety feature which was also implemented in some other places as well across the world.
My Z4 was Japan spec then it was imported to New Zealand a few years ago.

Many forum posts state that resetting the position/learning/actuation helps with it but I've tried it many times with no avail.

@Street
I'll try that!
When I got the car the parcel shelf was missing entirely so there isn't anything that would be blocking the top's travel down into the boot.
I only get red flashing lights when the top is manually released from lock.
When I fully tighten the roof to close the red lights disappear and no response from the buttons as per usual.

I have never seen a flashing amber light, only seen it hold orange when I press down the button.

I'm planning to check the wiring for the ambient temp sensor as that was being shown on INPA.

@enuff_zed
Thank you for your help!
I'm unfortunately so far away in New Zealand so I unfortunately can't take your offer but thank you so much for your kindness!

Code: 
Date:
88/30/23 17:32:06
ECU:
CVM IU
Jobstatus: OKAY
Variant:
CVM IV
RESULT:
2 errors in error memory
18
Bedientaster 'Öffnen' permanent auf GND
Error frequency : 7
Aussentemperatur
sporadischer Fehler
12.00 Grad C
19
Bedientaster 'Schliessen' permanent auf GND
Error frequency: 1
Aussentemperatur
sporadischer. Fehler
SSSSSSSS---
=2222222ニニニニー---
12.00 Grad C

This is the error messages that were present on the Body > Convertible Top ECU.
I do get a proper reading on the dashboard (12 degrees Celsius [It's winter in NZ]) so I suspect it might be something with the wiring.
 
The orange light is the micro switch. Short it as I mentioned above and see how you get on.

You can take the micro switch apart. I’ve had one where the metal arm had been bent and not always making a connection.
 
A bit of an update,

@Street
The roof operation on INPA only works when I short the microswitch in the boot with an object that closes the metal connection.
With the short the roof closes and opens with only the close soft-top function, never with the open soft-top function at all.

To Open ->
Microswitch shorted, close soft-top function perfectly opens the roof with the windows dropping down.
If microswitch isn't shorted neither open/close works at all in INPA.
Roof buttons do not work.

To Close ->
With the microswitch not shorted close soft-top function perfectly closes the roof with the windows closing once finished.
If microswitch isn't shorted the motor will unlock from the back but the pump will keep asking it to go back down so I need to undo the short.
Roof buttons do not work.

I can also now see an amber/orange light as on the switch on the bottom not the top out of the two.

Would this be a clear tell-tale sign of a bad boot microswitch?
 
Can we put aside INPA and go back to basics so we can visualise it please.
1. Do you have a parcel shelf, is it fitted properly and is it in the lower position?
2. Sit in the car, roof up, windows up, ignition on.
3. Press the roof down button. What happens?
4. If only the amber light comes on it’s a microswitch issue. Short across the plug which should make the system think it is closed.
5. Repeat 1 to 3. What happens.

Really difficult to diagnose this so please bear with us and go through these steps for now,
 
Hi @enuff_zed

1. Do you have a parcel shelf, is it fitted properly and is it in the lower position?
2. Sit in the car, roof up, windows up, ignition on.
3. Press the roof down button. What happens?
4. If only the amber light comes on it’s a microswitch issue. Short across the plug which should make the system think it is closed.
5. Repeat 1 to 3. What happens.
Click to expand...

1. I don't have a parcel shelf. The boot is empty and there are no obstructions.
2. N/A
3. No light comes up and there are no noises.
4. Shorting the microswitch in the boot still makes no difference.
5. No improvements unfortunately after repeated attempts.
 
Hi All,
I've done some troubleshooting just to follow up my previous reply and I suspect that it might be a wiring loom issue for the moment.

https://zroadster.org/threads/z4-e85-roof-problems-vsw-short-circuit-to-ground-fixed.39549/
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=135077

I've found these two similar articles, especially the first one being very close to my situation with the same exact error messages although I don't have the GapTech module.

I'll be doing some further investigation but after removing the headliner plastic the wires up until the hinge it looked good (even after cutting open the protective sleeve) so I'll probably have to look deeper into the whole harness.
 
ann.nonco said:
Hi @enuff_zed

1. Do you have a parcel shelf, is it fitted properly and is it in the lower position?
2. Sit in the car, roof up, windows up, ignition on.
3. Press the roof down button. What happens?
4. If only the amber light comes on it’s a microswitch issue. Short across the plug which should make the system think it is closed.
5. Repeat 1 to 3. What happens.
Click to expand...

1. I don't have a parcel shelf. The boot is empty and there are no obstructions.
2. N/A
3. No light comes up and there are no noises.
4. Shorting the microswitch in the boot still makes no difference.
5. No improvements unfortunately after repeated attempts.
Click to expand...
OK, and you've already done the window reset so that shouldn't affect it.
You could try with the windows both down, just in case?
If you have no parcel shelf then you definitely need to bypass that micro-switch permanently of course.
It is unlikely that both relays have failed or all three fuses blown, though worth checking them anyway.
So we're left with either the control module or a wiring fault in the roof loom.
[ref]bigwinn[/ref] is the knowledgeable one regarding the roof loom. Stuart, would you expect nothing at all, or would the front still unlock?

The control module sits behind the LH seat, hidden behind the square grille in the outer trim panel. I'm guessing it won't be easy for you to source a replacement, unless you can find another owner willing to let you do a diagnostic swap?
 
enuff_zed said:
ann.nonco said:
Hi @enuff_zed

1. Do you have a parcel shelf, is it fitted properly and is it in the lower position?
2. Sit in the car, roof up, windows up, ignition on.
3. Press the roof down button. What happens?
4. If only the amber light comes on it’s a microswitch issue. Short across the plug which should make the system think it is closed.
5. Repeat 1 to 3. What happens.
Click to expand...

1. I don't have a parcel shelf. The boot is empty and there are no obstructions.
2. N/A
3. No light comes up and there are no noises.
4. Shorting the microswitch in the boot still makes no difference.
5. No improvements unfortunately after repeated attempts.
Click to expand...
OK, and you've already done the window reset so that shouldn't affect it.
You could try with the windows both down, just in case?
If you have no parcel shelf then you definitely need to bypass that micro-switch permanently of course.
It is unlikely that both relays have failed or all three fuses blown, though worth checking them anyway.
So we're left with either the control module or a wiring fault in the roof loom.
[ref]bigwinn[/ref] is the knowledgeable one regarding the roof loom. Stuart, would you expect nothing at all, or would the front still unlock?

The control module sits behind the LH seat, hidden behind the square grille in the outer trim panel. I'm guessing it won't be easy for you to source a replacement, unless you can find another owner willing to let you do a diagnostic swap?
Click to expand...

Hard to say as all the loom issues I’ve had have been mid cycle- not opening or closing- I guess due to the majority of movement on the loom at that point
 
The loom by the window is a weak point, I'd check the wires there first. One of mine had snapped and required fixing, there's a mesh wrap you have to cut in order to see the individual wires.
 
Hi all,

OK, and you've already done the window reset so that shouldn't affect it.
You could try with the windows both down, just in case?
If you have no parcel shelf then you definitely need to bypass that micro-switch permanently of course.
It is unlikely that both relays have failed or all three fuses blown, though worth checking them anyway.
So we're left with either the control module or a wiring fault in the roof loom.
bigwinn is the knowledgeable one regarding the roof loom. Stuart, would you expect nothing at all, or would the front still unlock?
Click to expand...

I've tried it with the windows down and it makes no difference.
Thank you for the microswitch tip!
Relays are all okay after testing it with a multimeter and all fuses are OK.

Control Module seems to be fine as INPA and ISTA-P seem to communicate it without issue but the error messages (temp ground) really seems to be a loom issue at this point.

Does anyone have any tips on removing the whole loom?
I can't seem to get access down into the module as once the loom passes through the most bottom hinge even removing the LH seat rear trim it's still inaccessible unless maybe if I remove the roof entirely.

The loom from the locking motor until the hinge is fine after removing the mesh front to back - there are no bends or cuts from what I see so maybe it's even further down.
 
Okay so an update for the Z4 under question, I think that my Z4 might be haunted with electrical gremlins right now.
I haven't had time to check the full wiring loom but currently the roof does not open at all using INPA. Not due to low battery voltage as it's constantly on a tender.

I was driving on the highway today when suddenly at 80km/h the roof decided to open by itself :thumbsdown: (latch and pump activated - sound and operation confirmation) then with the roof opened the latch proceeded to constantly lock and unlock randomly. I think the wire short has become more serious so I need to have a look into the whole thing, for the meantime the latch motor has been disconnected so it should stop moving around.

The hydraulic pump bowden cable release does not work so I need to replace that, same as the stowage lock release cable is somewhat overextended so I think that has failed as well. When I pull both cables they don't do anything.

I've taken apart the front console that houses the up/down roof buttons but they all seem fine without any bends so I think it might be somewhere near the passenger b pillar (Japan spec so it's RHD) where all the modules and connections congregate. The buttons flash UP RED constantly so it still thinks it's up when I've manually locked it in place.
Need to source a new wiring loom but before that maybe take the roof out entirely and have a look at all the wiring connections as INPA reports the OPEN button is constantly reporting it's being pressed on. 

Otherwise the car itself is fine, need to get some coilovers and new bushings. It's still a blast to drive so I'm happy. :driving:
 
Stowage lock release cable???
Do you mean the black button with string on that is below the microswitch housing?
That is a manual release for the centre storage door if the lock fails.
The top button between the roll hoops unlocks the roof when it is down.
 
enuff_zed said:
Stowage lock release cable???
Do you mean the black button with string on that is below the microswitch housing?
That is a manual release for the centre storage door if the lock fails.
The top button between the roll hoops unlocks the roof when it is down.
Click to expand...

That's what it says on TIS (bmwtechinfo) - yes the black button with string and the red hoop/clip bowden cable both failed :(

More specifically, the black button is called the stowage lock and the red plug is called a ring.

I feel that with the sudden open there might be more broken items but that's TBA for now.

Also since the button does not work while the latch/motor works it's definitely a bad wiring break/short somewhere.
 
Stowage lock as in centre console stowage.
Lock your car with the boot open. Then pull the string and the storage should unlock
 
Big update!
Replaced the top module and centre console switch centre but it did not solve anything.
I've identified the issue after hours of tracing back in INPA and Wiring Diagrams shared on the internet for the BMW E85.

The connectors between X201 to X200 (three wires that run from the latch to the connectors in the body) are damaged. :thumbsdown:

https://imgur.com/a/HpywOlQ

It would constantly report as the OPEN button being pushed on and on INPA it would report the button actuation as OPEN plus temperature error code.

I've moved the wires in the shared photo around a bit and it works now but when I close it due to the movement of the roof hinge the wires get upset again.
So it's three wires to splice and re-solder to fix the issue.

Does anyone have any advice in regards to the wire thickness?
I have some 20 and 18 gauge wire on hand but was wondering if I should use a thinner wire.

Furthermore I can't seem to have access to the torx screw (not enough space for a ratchet even when bent) so I would need to remove the plastic as seen in the photo;
But the plastic even with many screws removed doesn't want to come out.

If anyone could advise if there are any hidden screws or bolts for the plastic back panel that would be greatly appreciated!

PS: The wires were in a mess by the previous owner so I'll clean up the mess as seen in the image. :roll:
 
Roof Fixed! :thumbsup:

The dreaded roof issue has finally been fixed on my z4, the cause being this.
QGNa9eY

https://imgur.com/a/QGNa9eY
The previous owner who owned the car had done the motor location modification in a improper way, causing wiring harness X13037 to become crimped and causing all sorts of intangible issues.

I had run the course of checking all pin assignments (relays/fuses/modules/lamps/signals/canbus) and was to no avail so was in the process of ripping out the wiring harness where I noticed some tension between the bolt and the wall as seen in the image here:
Q3BvGi2

https://imgur.com/a/Q3BvGi2

It was such a sloppy job that after all these endless hours and nights it was just a bolt that was causing this whole kerfuffle.

The buttons work find and the ground fault is now gone (for now).

I've also refreshed the data wires for wiring harness x200 which should at least keep it running for a few more years.
The wires running from the top module to the latch motor wasn't the problem but was due for a refresh anyways.
VJOTCyr

https://imgur.com/a/VJOTCyr
Some flux and shrink tubing does the trick :thumbsup:

Just two extra photos to ensure that the following crimps don't affect the x200 wiring harness but may look damaged.
xsWdbqx

https://imgur.com/a/xsWdbqx

Now to fix the hydraulic fluid leak, and replace the cracked headliner plastic...

Thank you to everyone that contributed to this repair! :)
 
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