Roof issues...

J

Joe4

Member
Hi all,

This is my first post here (apart from in the newbies section) so forgive me if somebody has posted this question before, I've tried my best to search for the answer...

I recently bought a lovely 2.5i in grey, absolutely spotless condition apart from the dreaded roof motor/pump, which I initially planned to relocate without taking the hood off through the boot...

After spending hours swearing and jumping in and out of the boot every 5 minutes due to feeling claustrophobic :roll: I was unable to get the bottom half of the motor casing free, so decided to go the route of taking the hood off and giving the drains a proper clean while I was at it... Good job I did as I found two Yankee candle air fresheners underneath the motor casing, helping the other muck to block up the drain hole... How they got there I have no idea haha

I managed to successfully remove and replace the hood using a combination of advice read from previous posts on this great forum and watching YouTube videos...

Anyway to cut a long story short I was able to relocate the pump into the boot; and as a bonus a bit of wd40 and cleaning got the old motor running smoothly! However the pump was leaking at the banjo bolts and so had lost the majority of its hydraulic fluid. After topping this up with the roof fully down and tightening the banjo bolts (right hand side of the pump) I was able to run the motor and get the roof to raise under its own steam. However after repeated attempts, the roof will not go down without assistance. The front locking mechanism unlatches and I can hear the pump whirring in the boot, but it doesn't move until I push the roof just past vertical, where it then smoothly lowers.

I've checked the fluid level after repeated cycles of the roof and topped up to about 3/4 of the way on the reservoir, not sure if this is correct as my reservoir doesn't appear to have any max/min markings.

It seems strange to me that the roof does not struggle to lift and close, but doesn't even attempt to move until pushed open even with the motor running.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience of this problem and any solutions would be greatly appreciated, Sorry for the long post!
 
Mine does the same. I keep thinking fluid levels. If you push the button and it unlatches and moves then stops, latch it again then open it. If it's the same as mine, it will open fine, which makes me think it's the fluid pressure.
Let me know how you get on.
Also does it go all the way down?
 
Sgr74 said:
Mine does the same. I keep thinking fluid levels. If you push the button and it unlatches and moves then stops, latch it again then open it. If it's the same as mine, it will open fine, which makes me think it's the fluid pressure.
Let me know how you get on.
Also does it go all the way down?
Click to expand...

Just popped outside to try it now,

so what you mean is hold the open button until it unlatches, then the close button for it to relatch, then hold the open button again?

just gave that a go it doesn't seem make any difference on mine... it unlatches on the front locking motor, then the rear pump motor spins and there absolutely no movement, however if i try to push the roof without holding the open button it stays locked in position, only when I'm pressing the button and the motors running will it allow me to push the roof back, and when it gets to where the roof is vertical it lowers smoothly as if under the power of the motor, but I'm guessing its just gravity taking over from the force of my hand pushing it open if that makes sense?

I think your right about it being pressure related....also odd is that when I'm raising the roof you hear motor spin freely then the tone changes slightly as I assume the pressure builds and the motor is under load, then the roof comes up no problem, but when trying to go down it just spins freely...
 
Same issue here. When used for the first time in a a few days, press the open button, unlatches moves about 30mm and then have to give a little assistance with one finger and then it carries on its self un assisted. Closes no problem. Go to open again and no problem. Open in about 8 seconds. Since I have had the car the roof has never gone down enough to latch its self open, unless I get out and push it into the latch. Driving with it open unmatched has never been a problem. Others on here have commented about theirs not latching open. Common problem.
 
Yeah i forgot to add that mine doesn't latch closed either... :scratchhead:

Another possible cause that springs to mind is that when i removed the motor to free it up, the part that houses that little plastic disk with holes in and a peg with a spring on it (impeller maybe?) fell out, as i couldn't see any particular way for it to go back together i just popped it onto the motor shaft and put the peg in one of the holes... I'm wondering if this could have an effect on the pressure the pump outputs in either direction?
 
Cookie, I'm wondering if yours could be a bit of air getting into the system gradually, by lowering and raising the roof i believe the pump self bleeds? which would then solve your problem for a few days.
 
The latch motor is purely electrical and not part of the hydraulic system that operates the roof up and down. A couple of things to check. Firstly the plastic resoviour that hold the fluid has a + sign on outside above half way up, the fluid level needs to be about that point. The pump is self bleeding so after a couple of cycles up and down it should have purged all the air, but the motor needs to be as upright as possible , if it's tilted too far over it wouldn't work correctly . You also need to check that you have the pipes connected correctly , they are numbered, if you look at the black pipes you should see numbers on each pipe, 11,12,13 and 14 . Pipes 11 and 13 and 12 and 14 should be paired up with each other on a bango bolt . There should be a cooper washer between the pump housing and the first pipe, one in between the pipes and then one on top betfore the bolt holds it all together on each banjo .
The motor runs the pump, and in theory the hydraulic fluid is simply pumped into the hydraulic rams, this happens like this .....

Hydraulic fluid in the system and pipes is pushed by the pump down two of the hydraulic pipe to the rams, remember two pipes per ram, one for up, one for down, as the fluid enters the ram piston it moves the ram up or down ( depending on button pushed ) and the fluid already in the ram on the other side of it that is being displaced by the rams movement returns to the resoviour via the second pipe, remember two pipes per ram one for up one for down. , so ..... if the pump is not upright enough the pump pushes some air and some fluid, its likely that the fluid in the cap is covering only one pump port if tilted too much, so it will work one way, pushing fluid only and not the other way as it's pushing fluid and air, so you have to help it with your hand .

The other thing that could be a problem is the motor running the pump isn't working as strongly one way. The motor spins in both directions, ( up button one way, down button the other way ) remove the motor and put it in a bucket of diesel or duck oil, run it submerged for about 5 mins each way , take out, wipe of excess to try it in the car again .

The pin on the plastic rotor can go in any hole.
Also did you used the correct hydraulic fluid ? It should be H22 hydraulic fluid, other fluids are normally too thick
The hydraulic nature of the system means that it's very hard to move the roof by hand if the pump isn't running or you haven't pulled the bypass cable . .

Good luck
 
Welcome Joe,
I see you're in Cardiff. I'm in Bristol and can relocate and usually revive motors, if you need a hand. Drop me a PM if you want assistance
 
Thanks Number5 I may be in touch if I'm unable to fix this myself, Appreciate the in depth response dietcokeman thanks for taking the time!

I checked my fluid level and its slightly above the + symbol, i also checked the pump was upright... however what you said about the fluid not getting to all of the ports makes sense.

With this in mind i noticed that the bowden cable assembly seemed stiff, when i bought the car it was already in the open position leading me to believe it had been this way for some time... upon removing the cable assembly from the outside of the pump i noticed the ball bearing type thing had seized so a bit of wd40 and a tap with a hammer while the down switch was pushed helped to free this. However this has had no effect on the discussed problem here.

Im wondering does this ball bearing push against a set of valves inside the pump? if so do you think it is possible that the valve for the pull side of the hydraulic lines could be stuck partially open giving the push hoses power but not the pull? if this is the case i think a strip down and clean of the pump could possibly fix the problem...

Without the bowden cable pulled out, the roof will not push back manually without operating the open switch as you explained above, however when it get to the point where the motor/gravity takes over, if i take my finger off the switch I'm able to push the roof open manually... not sure if this is of any interest... Also at this point i can rock the roof back and forth between fully open and the dead spot in the roof opening with seemingly equal ease in either direction ( so i assume its the motor/pump closing the roof at this point not just gravity) , in the point between fully closed and where the pump starts to take effect there is absolutely zero movement when attempting to open to correspond with the noise of the motor spinning, not even a weak attempt on the roofs part to move under its own steam. ( I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here... if thats the case let me know and i can attempt to upload a video :D )
 
I would discuss it with Mike on this forum (ducklakeview). The man is a genius and he will sort you out or know what to do. Or Number 5 if he is nearer to you.
 
Joe4 said:
This is a possible cause, yes. It sounds like you have a fluid flow problem . Have you checked that all the hydraulic lines are without an kinks ? These lines are fairly robust but if one line is bent slightly you will experience fluid flow issues. It's possible of course that something is also blocking a line internally but this is rare.Check the lines and if they are all without issue I would turn your attention to the bypass valve which could also cause the problem, and don't forget what I said about the motor, in all the ones I've done( about 20 ) I've had two that were the motor not running at full strength one way. You need to do what I suggested above , running the motor fully submerged in a bucket of diesel or duck oil, for 5 mins each way. This will clean the motor internal for the full power each way .
Click to expand...
 
Dietcokeman said:
The latch motor is purely electrical and not part of the hydraulic system that operates the roof up and down. A couple of things to check. Firstly the plastic resoviour that hold the fluid has a + sign on outside above half way up, the fluid level needs to be about that point. The pump is self bleeding so after a couple of cycles up and down it should have purged all the air, but the motor needs to be as upright as possible , if it's tilted too far over it wouldn't work correctly . You also need to check that you have the pipes connected correctly , they are numbered, if you look at the black pipes you should see numbers on each pipe, 11,12,13 and 14 . Pipes 11 and 13 and 12 and 14 should be paired up with each other on a bango bolt . There should be a cooper washer between the pump housing and the first pipe, one in between the pipes and then one on top betfore the bolt holds it all together on each banjo .
The motor runs the pump, and in theory the hydraulic fluid is simply pumped into the hydraulic rams, this happens like this .....

Hydraulic fluid in the system and pipes is pushed by the pump down two of the hydraulic pipe to the rams, remember two pipes per ram, one for up, one for down, as the fluid enters the ram piston it moves the ram up or down ( depending on button pushed ) and the fluid already in the ram on the other side of it that is being displaced by the rams movement returns to the resoviour via the second pipe, remember two pipes per ram one for up one for down. , so ..... if the pump is not upright enough the pump pushes some air and some fluid, its likely that the fluid in the cap is covering only one pump port if tilted too much, so it will work one way, pushing fluid only and not the other way as it's pushing fluid and air, so you have to help it with your hand .

The other thing that could be a problem is the motor running the pump isn't working as strongly one way. The motor spins in both directions, ( up button one way, down button the other way ) remove the motor and put it in a bucket of diesel or duck oil, run it submerged for about 5 mins each way , take out, wipe of excess to try it in the car again .

The pin on the plastic rotor can go in any hole.


Also did you used the correct hydraulic fluid ? It should be H22 hydraulic fluid, other fluids are normally too thick
The hydraulic nature of the system means that it's very hard to move the roof by hand if the pump isn't running or you haven't pulled the bypass cable . .

Good luck
Click to expand...

My motor is laying down after being re-located, no problems there.
 
sticky said:
Dietcokeman said:
The latch motor is purely electrical and not part of the hydraulic system that operates the roof up and down. A couple of things to check. Firstly the plastic resoviour that hold the fluid has a + sign on outside above half way up, the fluid level needs to be about that point. The pump is self bleeding so after a couple of cycles up and down it should have purged all the air, but the motor needs to be as upright as possible , if it's tilted too far over it wouldn't work correctly . You also need to check that you have the pipes connected correctly , they are numbered, if you look at the black pipes you should see numbers on each pipe, 11,12,13 and 14 . Pipes 11 and 13 and 12 and 14 should be paired up with each other on a bango bolt . There should be a cooper washer between the pump housing and the first pipe, one in between the pipes and then one on top betfore the bolt holds it all together on each banjo .
The motor runs the pump, and in theory the hydraulic fluid is simply pumped into the hydraulic rams, this happens like this .....

Hydraulic fluid in the system and pipes is pushed by the pump down two of the hydraulic pipe to the rams, remember two pipes per ram, one for up, one for down, as the fluid enters the ram piston it moves the ram up or down ( depending on button pushed ) and the fluid already in the ram on the other side of it that is being displaced by the rams movement returns to the resoviour via the second pipe, remember two pipes per ram one for up one for down. , so ..... if the pump is not upright enough the pump pushes some air and some fluid, its likely that the fluid in the cap is covering only one pump port if tilted too much, so it will work one way, pushing fluid only and not the other way as it's pushing fluid and air, so you have to help it with your hand .

The other thing that could be a problem is the motor running the pump isn't working as strongly one way. The motor spins in both directions, ( up button one way, down button the other way ) remove the motor and put it in a bucket of diesel or duck oil, run it submerged for about 5 mins each way , take out, wipe of excess to try it in the car again .

The pin on the plastic rotor can go in any hole.


Also did you used the correct hydraulic fluid ? It should be H22 hydraulic fluid, other fluids are normally too thick
The hydraulic nature of the system means that it's very hard to move the roof by hand if the pump isn't running or you haven't pulled the bypass cable . .

Good luck
Click to expand...

My motor is laying down after being re-located, no problems there.
Click to expand...

They can work laid down. It's all to do with where the ports are , if the ports are under the fluid level then all is ok, but if they aren't it won't work correctly . Putting the motor upright as possible ( the ports are at the base of the pump housing ) avoids any issues. Fluid level will obviously makes a difference too . Of course anyone is welcome to ignore any advice I offer, my posts are only trying to be helpful to the OP .
 
Ok I'll get onto that today, the lines seem ok to me, I've released them from the aluminium hoop on the motor side to give plenty of slack and avoid kinking them... With a blockage or kink I assumed the pump/motor would begin to strain as it pushes the fluid against the blockage?

When running the motor in a bucket of diesel do you not get an immediate fire? :lol: I had a few sparks from the brushes when I was testing the motor with jumper leads on an old car battery, or are you using a lower powered battery to do so?
 
Dietcokeman said:
sticky said:
Dietcokeman said:
The latch motor is purely electrical and not part of the hydraulic system that operates the roof up and down. A couple of things to check. Firstly the plastic resoviour that hold the fluid has a + sign on outside above half way up, the fluid level needs to be about that point. The pump is self bleeding so after a couple of cycles up and down it should have purged all the air, but the motor needs to be as upright as possible , if it's tilted too far over it wouldn't work correctly . You also need to check that you have the pipes connected correctly , they are numbered, if you look at the black pipes you should see numbers on each pipe, 11,12,13 and 14 . Pipes 11 and 13 and 12 and 14 should be paired up with each other on a bango bolt . There should be a cooper washer between the pump housing and the first pipe, one in between the pipes and then one on top betfore the bolt holds it all together on each banjo .
The motor runs the pump, and in theory the hydraulic fluid is simply pumped into the hydraulic rams, this happens like this .....

Hydraulic fluid in the system and pipes is pushed by the pump down two of the hydraulic pipe to the rams, remember two pipes per ram, one for up, one for down, as the fluid enters the ram piston it moves the ram up or down ( depending on button pushed ) and the fluid already in the ram on the other side of it that is being displaced by the rams movement returns to the resoviour via the second pipe, remember two pipes per ram one for up one for down. , so ..... if the pump is not upright enough the pump pushes some air and some fluid, its likely that the fluid in the cap is covering only one pump port if tilted too much, so it will work one way, pushing fluid only and not the other way as it's pushing fluid and air, so you have to help it with your hand .

The other thing that could be a problem is the motor running the pump isn't working as strongly one way. The motor spins in both directions, ( up button one way, down button the other way ) remove the motor and put it in a bucket of diesel or duck oil, run it submerged for about 5 mins each way , take out, wipe of excess to try it in the car again .


The pin on the plastic rotor can go in any hole.


Also did you used the correct hydraulic fluid ? It should be H22 hydraulic fluid, other fluids are normally too thick
The hydraulic nature of the system means that it's very hard to move the roof by hand if the pump isn't running or you haven't pulled the bypass cable . .

Good luck
Click to expand...

My motor is laying down after being re-located, no problems there.
Click to expand...

They can work laid down. It's all to do with where the ports are , if the ports are under the fluid level then all is ok, but if they aren't it won't work correctly . Putting the motor upright as possible ( the ports are at the base of the pump housing ) avoids any issues. Fluid level will obviously makes a difference too . Of course anyone is welcome to ignore any advice I offer, my posts are only trying to be helpful to the OP .
Click to expand...

OK,
 
Ignore my question about the diesel catching fire :lol: I just did a search and found a video of a motor running happily in a bowl of diesel.
 
No it won't catch fire ! Another check you could do before removing the motor , is simply swap over the hydraulic lines in the pairs they are in . This way if the motor is weak in one direction the systems will struggle to move the roof in the opposite direction from the way it struggles now .
 
Ok, so I have tried most things now. Moved the motor to an upright position, topped up the fluid, removed the Bowden cable completely, checked the hydrolic lines.....no difference. Still needs a push to start and won't go all the way down. I removed the shelf completely to see if there was any obstructions and checked the folds.....no difference. What next?
 
Removing the Bowden cable removes the ability to operate the valve but if the valve is seized part open removing the cable won't solve anything . Lubricator the ball and tap it with a hammer , they seize , but with a little working in and out ( hammer tapping ) and lub they normally free up .
 
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