Remapping
- Thread starter Ricey
- Start date
Everyone seems to write their expertise based on their feelings!!!
Has anyone can trow in some numbers any differences in 0-400m or 0-100km or better 60-120km?????
This might really change my decission. If the car feels more drivable I would assume that even the from stall performance is not affected at some point the rolling performance of the cars should benefit something???? Am I wrong here?
ıf there is very few hp increase and I won't be able to see any gains on the performance why would I do it?
Has anyone can trow in some numbers any differences in 0-400m or 0-100km or better 60-120km?????
This might really change my decission. If the car feels more drivable I would assume that even the from stall performance is not affected at some point the rolling performance of the cars should benefit something???? Am I wrong here?
ıf there is very few hp increase and I won't be able to see any gains on the performance why would I do it?
RichardG said:
And you trust a random mapper who simply buys files in and writes them to your ECU, or fannies around on a dyno all day fiddling with fundamentals when specifics may well have been tuned in for very good reasons by the original engineers!
Yes they have targets to meet, but they also have a huge budget, huge expertise, and made the things in the first place.
I don't doubt that when changes are made, such as you might on a track/racing orientated modified engine, or when using forced induction etc, that a re-calibrated setup is essential, but by and large for normal good road car NA petrol engines, there just isn't that much to find without impacting the oem's original tolerances setup for emissions, but also likely many other factors too.
IF you must make changes as I said, make them thoughtfully. ESS are likely the experts in this field having tuned many engines to much higher power, with warranty, not some random chip tuning company that buys files in, has a dyno and looks like they know what they are doing, and can just claim something else is wrong with your car hence your failure or whatever.
Too many bad companies out there!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Dave, have I upset you in a previous life, you seem to exception to quite a few of my posts and I have not made that many, I think you miss my point I am not saying BMW make bad maps or they don't do the best they can, what I am some other posters have said is that the standard BMW maps have to meet certain legistative and commercial criteria and because of that some compromises have to be made, I am not advocating going to 'Sids Garage' because they have just bought a laptop and think they might give it a go, manufacturers do update maps from time to time as further research and development is done and improvments found, there are enough independant engine tuners out there who do work for the big companies behind the scenes that they can and do write maps that conveniently miss the blips the manufacturers have to put in to get the cars homoligated and this is where the improved drivability comes from it's just filling in the holes, if you ever get the chance look at some before and after dyno printouts and you'll see what were talking about,
If I was considering it,I have to say that I would only go to a reputable tuner with the backup and history to remove as much of the risk as possible.
You haven't upset me don't worry, I've just seen enough of the 'reputable' tuners do crap jobs to make you be VERY careful who you believe when it comes to tuning.
I only want to help people not waste money on the wrong product.
Even a good review from someone who simply drove their car in and out and thought the changes were good isn't necessarily a good review.
If someone had say 5 different remaps applied to their car, some empirical testing done to prove the gains/smoothness/MOT passability/cold and hot running capabilities/driveability etc, and did some critical analysis on that, as well as the perceptional gains, and then presented the data, then fair enough.
The problem is most changes are made in isolation with only the perceptional reference to the previous operation of the car. Where dyno data is given it is very often not independent (we don't even need to go there to suggest why that is important I hope
)
How many people fit an air filter and assume there are benefits at all without testing, or even trying out all the different brands to find the best bang for their buck? I just think it's important to KNOW what you have been sold, and if it does what it's been promised to do, and if it is the best one for your needs.
Can anyone honestly say they bought a remap and it was exactly as they expected/wanted afterwards without having tried any others?
In time I will probably work on the mapping for my Z4, infact I'm eager to get started, I'll start with the basics and work my way through with logical empirically measured steps over months and achieve specific goals that I would imagine any 3.0 Z4 driver would approve of (being one myself)
I most certainly wouldn't hand over £300+ to a tuner without any in-depth information on their changes, why they made them, and a two week full money back road test, before and after independent dyno runs and do that with as many different places as I could to assure myself what I had actually WAS an improvement, and not just a 'change' at huge expense
No hard feelings intended, just want to see people get the right stuff for the right reasons as I've seen far too many people buy the wrong stuff for the wrong reasons
Dave
I only want to help people not waste money on the wrong product.
Even a good review from someone who simply drove their car in and out and thought the changes were good isn't necessarily a good review.
If someone had say 5 different remaps applied to their car, some empirical testing done to prove the gains/smoothness/MOT passability/cold and hot running capabilities/driveability etc, and did some critical analysis on that, as well as the perceptional gains, and then presented the data, then fair enough.
The problem is most changes are made in isolation with only the perceptional reference to the previous operation of the car. Where dyno data is given it is very often not independent (we don't even need to go there to suggest why that is important I hope
)How many people fit an air filter and assume there are benefits at all without testing, or even trying out all the different brands to find the best bang for their buck? I just think it's important to KNOW what you have been sold, and if it does what it's been promised to do, and if it is the best one for your needs.
Can anyone honestly say they bought a remap and it was exactly as they expected/wanted afterwards without having tried any others?
In time I will probably work on the mapping for my Z4, infact I'm eager to get started, I'll start with the basics and work my way through with logical empirically measured steps over months and achieve specific goals that I would imagine any 3.0 Z4 driver would approve of (being one myself)
I most certainly wouldn't hand over £300+ to a tuner without any in-depth information on their changes, why they made them, and a two week full money back road test, before and after independent dyno runs and do that with as many different places as I could to assure myself what I had actually WAS an improvement, and not just a 'change' at huge expense
No hard feelings intended, just want to see people get the right stuff for the right reasons as I've seen far too many people buy the wrong stuff for the wrong reasons
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Only once, and that was on a Corrado VR6 with a respected VW tuner in the early 90's where he did my bottom-up engine rebuild which included uprated/bigger valves, head, ports, throttle body, new cams, new variable intake manifold, etc. and as each mod was added the custom chip was modified to take advantage of it and then we added another custom chip to control the variable intake manifold as the standard open/close points didn't deliver in the right places to match the other modifications.
Actually I was expecting lots of power and a little torque increase, and I ended up with lots extra of both - those 993s at Castle Combe didn't know what what stalking them and they all thought I'd supercharged it
My 2c worth.
Totally agree with the huge difference I found in my 320d which e-maps did. Very happy with that.
Don't be too focused on the effect of maximum power increase. It is 'n=more area under the graph' you are after.
More power but not torque? You will only get that by increasing the rev limiter.
Power = torque x revs. Get more torque and you get more power. Don't believe me - look at any power and torque chart. They always cross at 5600 rpm because BHP is a multiple of torque.
Have fun tuning the Z4 but don't spend more time thinking about tuning it that getting out there and enjoying it!
Sceptre
Totally agree with the huge difference I found in my 320d which e-maps did. Very happy with that.
Don't be too focused on the effect of maximum power increase. It is 'n=more area under the graph' you are after.
More power but not torque? You will only get that by increasing the rev limiter.
Power = torque x revs. Get more torque and you get more power. Don't believe me - look at any power and torque chart. They always cross at 5600 rpm because BHP is a multiple of torque.
Have fun tuning the Z4 but don't spend more time thinking about tuning it that getting out there and enjoying it!
Sceptre
emaps replied and gave me a £245 quote to do at home. I'd guess a little less if I went there and more for greater travel.
They can't do groups as in their repsonse they advise the Z4 is more tricky to do than other applications of the engine, as it uses a different Siemens ECU.
Might just drop by and talk to them sometime
They can't do groups as in their repsonse they advise the Z4 is more tricky to do than other applications of the engine, as it uses a different Siemens ECU.
Might just drop by and talk to them sometime
A
Anonymous
Guest
i've only had my Coupe since Monday, but before buying it I had discussed getting it remapped with the tuner who did all the work on my last car, an EVO VIII MR. He suggested I would see a little bit of BHP and Torque increase but that the remap would also improve fuel efficiency and possibly drivability.
I'm quite keen on getting it done but I think I may wait for the car to come out of warranty next April before doing so. That is all
I'm quite keen on getting it done but I think I may wait for the car to come out of warranty next April before doing so. That is all
I will repeat my question hopefully will get some answers.
Has any of the tuners (does not have to be bmw specific) can prove the performance gains by time measurements.
I searched a lot but none of the tuners seem to be brave enough to execute real world test even though it is quite simple to do them with drift box.
I would really loved to see the differences in 0-400m 0-100km 60-100km???
I personally do not believe there would be any improvement on these figures, hence I am having hard time to understand what it is meant by the drivability improvement.
I am not against remaping hoever I think it has to be done to highley modified engines and the best way would be to use a stand alone management system
Has any of the tuners (does not have to be bmw specific) can prove the performance gains by time measurements.
I searched a lot but none of the tuners seem to be brave enough to execute real world test even though it is quite simple to do them with drift box.
I would really loved to see the differences in 0-400m 0-100km 60-100km???
I personally do not believe there would be any improvement on these figures, hence I am having hard time to understand what it is meant by the drivability improvement.
I am not against remaping hoever I think it has to be done to highley modified engines and the best way would be to use a stand alone management system
When Lotus launched the Elise they put a standard 1.8 rover engine in, but with their own mapping. The result was only an extra 4hp if I recall, but the engine felt far more responsive (weight difference of an elise vs MGF aside) and far more enjoyable over the whole rev range, making the engine feel more suited to a sports car.
I expect that there is a performance benefit on my 323 0-60, albeit probably about the same difference between a well maintained and unloved example of the same engine. The car definitely has more performance 70-110mph. I have no hard evidence to quantify this, but I know that my peak speed getting to the bends on my favourite [track!] are at least 5mph greater.
As I said before don't get a map on a standard engine to try and find hp numbers; get it to improve your enjoyment of the drive. After all, you're not trying to shave tenths off of a lap time!
I expect that there is a performance benefit on my 323 0-60, albeit probably about the same difference between a well maintained and unloved example of the same engine. The car definitely has more performance 70-110mph. I have no hard evidence to quantify this, but I know that my peak speed getting to the bends on my favourite [track!] are at least 5mph greater.
As I said before don't get a map on a standard engine to try and find hp numbers; get it to improve your enjoyment of the drive. After all, you're not trying to shave tenths off of a lap time!
JimExpl said:
JimExpl thanks for the input. I think this is where we should be focusing. Very intresting info, at least for me. If some other folks can give examples like this one I would definately get a remap. I am not after the hp or nm numbers. Time improvements counts more for me.
Memo, totally agree with your viewpoint.
No tuner will offer this because most tuners are just selling on someone elses work anyway, and they simply can't afford to get a car to test with in the first place.
I'd not even be a guinea pig for most tuners having seen plenty of remaps from 'reputable' tuners... scary stuff!
Of course there will be reputable tuners out there. I'm fairly certain ESS have proved their worth, yet people on here will happily look at someone like eMaps for this car when they have had little or no visible experience with these cars to start with.
Most mobile remappers won't even check a car before applying the mapping, ie, possible faults that exist and don't show issue at a standard level of tune, but may well do a week or so into the new mapping at tighter tolerances.
I'm certainly not an authority on this engine and it's tuning potential, but I'd say I'm fairly familiar with the vast array of non-specialist tuners offering generic stuff and how you really are better off saving your money and using a specialist with a wide range of experience and diverse tuning with this engine (ie, ESS)!
Dave
No tuner will offer this because most tuners are just selling on someone elses work anyway, and they simply can't afford to get a car to test with in the first place.
I'd not even be a guinea pig for most tuners having seen plenty of remaps from 'reputable' tuners... scary stuff!
Of course there will be reputable tuners out there. I'm fairly certain ESS have proved their worth, yet people on here will happily look at someone like eMaps for this car when they have had little or no visible experience with these cars to start with.
Most mobile remappers won't even check a car before applying the mapping, ie, possible faults that exist and don't show issue at a standard level of tune, but may well do a week or so into the new mapping at tighter tolerances.
I'm certainly not an authority on this engine and it's tuning potential, but I'd say I'm fairly familiar with the vast array of non-specialist tuners offering generic stuff and how you really are better off saving your money and using a specialist with a wide range of experience and diverse tuning with this engine (ie, ESS)!
Dave
I had my 330ci remapped by Simon at emaps. It only added 17hp but it did smooth out the flat spots and made the engine feel more responsive. (Early z4 share the same engine don't they?)
Off subject, I had a test drive in a 3.0 roadster - do the doors all sound metallic when shutting?
Off subject, I had a test drive in a 3.0 roadster - do the doors all sound metallic when shutting?
mattb said:
Good to hear that people speak well of his work.
Early Zeds certainly had tinny sounding doors and really need some sound deadening sticking on the panels. Later models BMW addressed and added some soundprrofing
http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp?c=shop&cat=93&subcat=170&subcat2=174&id=
ESS Tuning offer 5bhp and 3lbft of torque for the M54B30, using more rpm's, removing speed limiter, and upping the min fuel grade requirement.
I'm just unsure how other tuners can get 3x higher gains when buying maps in, while ESS Tuning who offer highly customised tuning and superchargers and so on, are apparently getting it so wrong when another 10bhp is evading them.
I'd like to get some independent dyno results from an eMap remap...
Dave
ESS Tuning offer 5bhp and 3lbft of torque for the M54B30, using more rpm's, removing speed limiter, and upping the min fuel grade requirement.
I'm just unsure how other tuners can get 3x higher gains when buying maps in, while ESS Tuning who offer highly customised tuning and superchargers and so on, are apparently getting it so wrong when another 10bhp is evading them.
I'd like to get some independent dyno results from an eMap remap...
Dave
Mr Whippy, Have you got an ESS chip?
Whilst I'm pretty green when it comes to BMW I've done ALOT of natural aspirated tuning work on cars in the past and I would not consider a remap / chip from a company in another country. Other than harder to deal with as no face to face contact, making it harder to resolve should there be a problem. The map would be a generic map and not specific to the car. e-maps will adapt the map to suit your car and be able to check all is ok. But my main concern is the specification differences between the countries. The ESS map will have been developed in the US where the quality of the fuel is less with lower RON ratings. Whilst i don't know if there are any differences in BMW engines, I have also come accross cars where the engine compression ratio is less in the states (reduces risk of pinking/detting) to allow for poorer fuel grades. so the ESS map won't have been optimised for cars in the uk. Hence maybe why they quote lower gain figures. Although the lower figures could be attributd to the yanks often refering to hp at the wheels opposed to flywheel hp as often refered to over here.
I can only find positive comments about e-maps:
http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6728&p=102517&hilit=emaps#p102517
http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7477&p=114776&hilit=emaps#p114776
Whilst I'm pretty green when it comes to BMW I've done ALOT of natural aspirated tuning work on cars in the past and I would not consider a remap / chip from a company in another country. Other than harder to deal with as no face to face contact, making it harder to resolve should there be a problem. The map would be a generic map and not specific to the car. e-maps will adapt the map to suit your car and be able to check all is ok. But my main concern is the specification differences between the countries. The ESS map will have been developed in the US where the quality of the fuel is less with lower RON ratings. Whilst i don't know if there are any differences in BMW engines, I have also come accross cars where the engine compression ratio is less in the states (reduces risk of pinking/detting) to allow for poorer fuel grades. so the ESS map won't have been optimised for cars in the uk. Hence maybe why they quote lower gain figures. Although the lower figures could be attributd to the yanks often refering to hp at the wheels opposed to flywheel hp as often refered to over here.
I can only find positive comments about e-maps:
http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6728&p=102517&hilit=emaps#p102517
http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7477&p=114776&hilit=emaps#p114776
No remap, yet. Certainly something I will look at with more research.
Just from my pov, when I went into remapping my last car I did lots of research and found the information out there given from tuners was almost non-existant. No before/after independent dyno work, little to no empirical testing on the road before/after, and absolutely no explanation from tuners about what is changed except "optimised the values"... depsite BMW having done the same, and ending up with a different result
I have no idea who e-maps buy their maps from, and even if I did that doesn't tell me much about how they achieve their gains, and what tolerances they remove to aid their power gains.
ESS I *do* know have worked with these cars very closely, developing the best supercharger kits out there for these cars over many years, supercharging the M3 CSL engine out to 550-600bhp, stomping the Ring in the Loaded CSL for 1000's of kms without issue. They are probably as specialist as you can get for people who understand why these engines were tuned the way they were from the start, and what the limits of them really are.
Not sure about the US fuel RON concern, iirc, it's rated differently anyway, so their 95 is an EU equivalent of about 98... I think their average pump fuel at least matches, if not is superior to our 95 anyway.
I don't mean to put down others comments on their remaps, but positive comments only seem to reach as far as having more pull low down, and that immortal line, removing flat spots. I'm not sure what flat spots these are but at WOT my car is smooth as silk from idle to the limiter.
If there is more pull low down, is it actually generating more peak torque low down, or is the throttle just giving more body opening at smaller inputs at lower engine speeds?
Again, I'm no expert on this car yet, but I've yet to see much evidence of any of these improvements and power gains from independent testing.
A decent assessment of the standard car will be my first step, before any tuning, and then when changes are made they can be referenced and measured back against oem. It will be interesting to see, if I ever do bother with a remap, what the differences are, and if they are generally positive things...
My first port of call will be primary engine breathing... namely the air intake/filter and exhaust backbox. Two easy and cheap to modify parts that can make a decent difference if there are areas we can improve (pretty sure the intake is as good as it'll get, but will take a look anyway)
Dave
Just from my pov, when I went into remapping my last car I did lots of research and found the information out there given from tuners was almost non-existant. No before/after independent dyno work, little to no empirical testing on the road before/after, and absolutely no explanation from tuners about what is changed except "optimised the values"... depsite BMW having done the same, and ending up with a different result
I have no idea who e-maps buy their maps from, and even if I did that doesn't tell me much about how they achieve their gains, and what tolerances they remove to aid their power gains.
ESS I *do* know have worked with these cars very closely, developing the best supercharger kits out there for these cars over many years, supercharging the M3 CSL engine out to 550-600bhp, stomping the Ring in the Loaded CSL for 1000's of kms without issue. They are probably as specialist as you can get for people who understand why these engines were tuned the way they were from the start, and what the limits of them really are.
Not sure about the US fuel RON concern, iirc, it's rated differently anyway, so their 95 is an EU equivalent of about 98... I think their average pump fuel at least matches, if not is superior to our 95 anyway.
I don't mean to put down others comments on their remaps, but positive comments only seem to reach as far as having more pull low down, and that immortal line, removing flat spots. I'm not sure what flat spots these are but at WOT my car is smooth as silk from idle to the limiter.
If there is more pull low down, is it actually generating more peak torque low down, or is the throttle just giving more body opening at smaller inputs at lower engine speeds?
Again, I'm no expert on this car yet, but I've yet to see much evidence of any of these improvements and power gains from independent testing.
A decent assessment of the standard car will be my first step, before any tuning, and then when changes are made they can be referenced and measured back against oem. It will be interesting to see, if I ever do bother with a remap, what the differences are, and if they are generally positive things...
My first port of call will be primary engine breathing... namely the air intake/filter and exhaust backbox. Two easy and cheap to modify parts that can make a decent difference if there are areas we can improve (pretty sure the intake is as good as it'll get, but will take a look anyway)
Dave
Dave with all due respect you seem anti remapping, but you have no real world experience of one, thus not ideally informed to comment on there lack of effectiveness.
Surely it would be better if we heard unbiased opinion and measurements from people who have actually had one done
I don’t mean to flame you btw
Surely it would be better if we heard unbiased opinion and measurements from people who have actually had one done
I don’t mean to flame you btw
