Performance maps and insurance

[mcbutler]

Hi all,
For a while now people have occasionally posted the 'should i/shouldnt i' question ref informing your insurance company if you have a performance map on your ECU.
Well after listening to a road traffic officer 'Owen' in Devon I learned today that any vehicle involved in a serious RTA has its ECU removed and analysed for performance maps.
So that's that question answered - declare it...

 

[R.E92]

That's an interesting claim but I'd question the feasibility of it. Aside from the obvious question about the police having the resources and will to carry out such a task I doubt they have the capability. Also not sure what benefit that would be to the police after the car has already been crashed, after all it's the insurance company that is the only one to benefit from the car being deemed uninsured.

There's a lot of people out there with modified ECUs that have no idea. There's a huge market for remapping commercial vehicles and fleet cars and they don't get returned to stock before heading to the auctions. Not all remaps have the intention of making a vehicle faster, some are just intended to bypass certain emissions rubbish like EGR valves and adblue that are a serial menace to the reliability of vehicles.

Sounds a bit like that urban myth about TV detector vans being able to tell if your house is receiving a TV signal. It worked to scare enough of the low-hanging fruit into submission.

 

[enuff_zed]

I would imagine by 'serious' they mean life changing injuries or death, in which case the investigations run much deeper.

 

[B21]

Sounds a bit like that urban myth about TV detector vans being able to tell if your house is receiving a TV signal. It worked to scare enough of the low-hanging fruit into submission.

The ‘urban myth’ was a fact..it was prior to digital TV and flat screens easy to both work out if there were TV’s switched on in a particular area and in fact work out to a very high degree of bearing accuracy which house in a street the TV was and also which frequency the TV was listening too, so you could discriminate between say a BBC channel and an ITV channel..

 

[B21]

FWIW here’s an extract from guidance for forensic investigation in the case of fatal accidents..


The key requirements of vehicle examination include:

establishing the pre-collision mechanical condition of the vehicle, controls, switches and other components
in conjunction with the forensic collision investigator, considering the likelihood of a vehicle-related factor having caused or contributed to the collision
identifying and recovering forensic material (for example, mechanical components/vehicle borne electronics) from vehicles
recording details of the position and extent of the damage
identifying whether any devices have been fitted to the vehicle and to secure available electronic data from vehicle ECUs


Further details here..

https://www.college.police.uk/app/roads-policing/investigation-fatal-and-serious-injury-road-collisions

 

[Ole gits rule]

Hi all,
For a while now people have occasionally posted the 'should i/shouldnt i' question ref informing your insurance company if you have a performance map on your ECU.
Well after listening to a road traffic officer 'Owen' in Devon I learned today that any vehicle involved in a serious RTA has its ECU removed and analysed for performance maps.
So that's that question answered - declare it...

Well, that seems odd IMHO, my next neighbour had a Toyota Rav4 hybrid, as he exited a roundabout the car basically stopped dead and he was hit from behind by the following car, the Rav4 was written off

At no point did he police or insurance company remove the ECU to check what had gone wrong, my neighbour thought it would be as the car was brand new (2 months old) and he believed they would be checking to see if there was an issue with the hybrid systems.

My Bro-in-law also works for plod and was a traffic officer for 15 years and now works as a serious crash investigator and he has never mentioned removing an ECU to check for re-maps.
.

 

[rdm05z4]

So, if it is true, they are checking ECU's for re-maps then it is like checking a planes black box.

 

[B21]

Hi all,
For a while now people have occasionally posted the 'should i/shouldnt i' question ref informing your insurance company if you have a performance map on your ECU.
Well after listening to a road traffic officer 'Owen' in Devon I learned today that any vehicle involved in a serious RTA has its ECU removed and analysed for performance maps.
So that's that question answered - declare it...

Well, that seems odd IMHO, my next neighbour had a Toyota Rav4 hybrid, as he exited a roundabout the car basically stopped dead and he was hit from behind by the following car, the Rav4 was written off

At no point did he police or insurance company remove the ECU to check what had gone wrong, my neighbour thought it would be as the car was brand new (2 months old) and he believed they would be checking to see if there was an issue with the hybrid systems.

My Bro-in-law also works for plod and was a traffic officer for 15 years and now works as a serious crash investigator and he has never mentioned removing an ECU to check for re-maps.
.

I think you are missing the point..no one is going to turn everything upside down for an every day run of the mill non fatal prang..

Where the shits going to happen is when you have someone who’s going to spend the rest of their life in a coma or high dependency…

Then the police and/or the insurance and/or the lawyers are going to try and find the thing they can nail the defendant on..

I’ve seen it first hand when a certain company director went backwards through their high performance car following an accident …they pulled everything and were able to reconstruct very accurately the whole crash event..unfortunately for the litigant everything was stock and a ok and it in fact showed that the ESPmsystems tried to save the said person from his own folly…

 

[mcbutler]

Hi all,
For a while now people have occasionally posted the 'should i/shouldnt i' question ref informing your insurance company if you have a performance map on your ECU.
Well after listening to a road traffic officer 'Owen' in Devon I learned today that any vehicle involved in a serious RTA has its ECU removed and analysed for performance maps.
So that's that question answered - declare it...

Well, that seems odd IMHO, my next neighbour had a Toyota Rav4 hybrid, as he exited a roundabout the car basically stopped dead and he was hit from behind by the following car, the Rav4 was written off

At no point did he police or insurance company remove the ECU to check what had gone wrong, my neighbour thought it would be as the car was brand new (2 months old) and he believed they would be checking to see if there was an issue with the hybrid systems.

My Bro-in-law also works for plod and was a traffic officer for 15 years and now works as a serious crash investigator and he has never mentioned removing an ECU to check for re-maps.
.

I think you are missing the point..no one is going to turn everything upside down for an every day run of the mill non fatal prang..

Where the shits going to happen is when you have someone who’s going to spend the rest of their life in a coma or high dependency…

Then the police and/or the insurance and/or the lawyers are going to try and find the thing they can nail the defendant on..

I’ve seen it first hand when a certain company director went backwards through their high performance car following an accident …they pulled everything and were able to reconstruct very accurately the whole crash event..unfortunately for the litigant everything was stock and a ok and it in fact showed that the ESPmsystems tried to save the said person from his own folly…

And here is the guy who reads the post SERIOUS RTA not a shunt on a roundabout or being the obviously non guilty party. Hes making a video on the subject for a YT channel he works with, Ill post a link when i get it

 

[mcbutler]

This is the short video made by Owen the traffic officer on my friends excellent instagram/youtube channel GCM.
Owen said that some do slip the net as many police officers are not fully traffic are unaware of this apparently!
Owen features regularly on the channel and a lot of info there about number plates/new phone laws/window tinting/spoilers/exhaust noise-burbles etc etc. Well worth a browse to get it from the guy who knows
Link is to instagram
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CeiPMrKjCto/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

 

[Ole gits rule]

Hi all,
For a while now people have occasionally posted the 'should i/shouldnt i' question ref informing your insurance company if you have a performance map on your ECU.
Well after listening to a road traffic officer 'Owen' in Devon I learned today that any vehicle involved in a serious RTA has its ECU removed and analysed for performance maps.
So that's that question answered - declare it...

Well, that seems odd IMHO, my next neighbour had a Toyota Rav4 hybrid, as he exited a roundabout the car basically stopped dead and he was hit from behind by the following car, the Rav4 was written off

At no point did he police or insurance company remove the ECU to check what had gone wrong, my neighbour thought it would be as the car was brand new (2 months old) and he believed they would be checking to see if there was an issue with the hybrid systems.

My Bro-in-law also works for plod and was a traffic officer for 15 years and now works as a serious crash investigator and he has never mentioned removing an ECU to check for re-maps.
.

I think you are missing the point..no one is going to turn everything upside down for an every day run of the mill non fatal prang..

Where the shits going to happen is when you have someone who’s going to spend the rest of their life in a coma or high dependency…

Then the police and/or the insurance and/or the lawyers are going to try and find the thing they can nail the defendant on..

I’ve seen it first hand when a certain company director went backwards through their high performance car following an accident …they pulled everything and were able to reconstruct very accurately the whole crash event..unfortunately for the litigant everything was stock and a ok and it in fact showed that the ESPmsystems tried to save the said person from his own folly…

Not missing the point at all, my brother in law investigates fatal crashes every week as a serious crash investigator - he has never ever mentioned removing a ECU from a car to check for a remap - maybe forces have different rules but he investigates only the most serious accidents not run of the mill bumps.

 

[B21]

According to the document I linked to there are separate roles for accident investigators and forensic investigators…it looks like your brother in law is a collision investigator not a forensic investigator ..in which case it’s not surprising that he’s not pulled ECUs…

 

[tiglon]

In a fatal or very serious RTA where there is probability of criminal culpability I can believe they examine the ECU - at least occasionally, if they have the man power that week and if they can be bothered, and especially if the case has been in the media.

As for whether you should tell your insurance company about a remap? I can't see any reason not to. It cost me a small admin fee and one long painful conversation trying to explain that a remap is not a chip.

 

[mcbutler]

In a fatal or very serious RTA where there is probability of criminal culpability I can believe they examine the ECU - at least occasionally, if they have the man power that week and if they can be bothered, and especially if the case has been in the media.

As for whether you should tell your insurance company about a remap? I can't see any reason not to. It cost me a small admin fee and one long painful conversation trying to explain that a remap is not a chip.

Solid addition to the thread - agreed

 

[mr.tourette]

In a fatal or very serious RTA where there is probability of criminal culpability I can believe they examine the ECU - at least occasionally, if they have the man power that week and if they can be bothered, and especially if the case has been in the media.

As for whether you should tell your insurance company about a remap? I can't see any reason not to. It cost me a small admin fee and one long painful conversation trying to explain that a remap is not a chip.

Solid addition to the thread - agreed

This is interesting with my renewal coming up..I always declare my mods but on all the comparison sites it always say in the engine modifications section something along the lines of "chipped engine" or chipped ecu cant quite remember which you never actually see the words engine remap on any of these sites so thats the box I always check..this year its something like £65 difference when i check that box which seems harsh for a small bhp bump on a n/a car ..I'm debating not declaring it at purchase and then calling the next day to have a conversation and seeing how the diffence stacks up in terms of possibly just a small admin fee being put on

 

[Argyll Andy]

In a fatal or very serious RTA where there is probability of criminal culpability I can believe they examine the ECU - at least occasionally, if they have the man power that week and if they can be bothered, and especially if the case has been in the media.

As for whether you should tell your insurance company about a remap? I can't see any reason not to. It cost me a small admin fee and one long painful conversation trying to explain that a remap is not a chip.

Solid addition to the thread - agreed

This is interesting with my renewal coming up..I always declare my mods but on all the comparison sites it always say in the engine modifications section something along the lines of "chipped engine" or chipped ecu cant quite remember which you never actually see the words engine remap on any of these sites so thats the box I always check..this year its something like £65 difference when i check that box which seems harsh for a small bhp bump on a n/a car ..I'm debating not declaring it at purchase and then calling the next day to have a conversation and seeing how the diffence stacks up in terms of possibly just a small admin fee being put on

Another option Steve is to go through the quote saying no, them when it give you the price it normally says something like take me too or call insurer to discuss details and at that point say the car is not chipped, clicking that box would’ve been technically incorrect so your phoning to make them aware of remap and see if it bumps the premium. If not buy it there and then as your conversation linked to what’s done to your car is recorded incase of any further issues. Worth a punt

 

[mr.tourette]

Solid addition to the thread - agreed

This is interesting with my renewal coming up..I always declare my mods but on all the comparison sites it always say in the engine modifications section something along the lines of "chipped engine" or chipped ecu cant quite remember which you never actually see the words engine remap on any of these sites so thats the box I always check..this year its something like £65 difference when i check that box which seems harsh for a small bhp bump on a n/a car ..I'm debating not declaring it at purchase and then calling the next day to have a conversation and seeing how the diffence stacks up in terms of possibly just a small admin fee being put on

Another option Steve is to go through the quote saying no, them when it give you the price it normally says something like take me too or call insurer to discuss details and at that point say the car is not chipped, clicking that box would’ve been technically incorrect so your phoning to make them aware of remap and see if it bumps the premium. If not buy it there and then as your conversation linked to what’s done to your car is recorded incase of any further issues. Worth a punt

Yep thats exactly what I was thinking mate,I'll declare all bar the remap then call around the best few quotes and see what it then costs to add the remap

 

[Nictrix]

I wonder how many people have bought cars that were previously remapped and they dont know about it.
How can you tell your insurance company your car has been remapped if you dont know.

 

[Argyll Andy]

I wonder how many people have bought cars that were previously remapped and they dont know about it.
How can you tell your insurance company your car has been remapped if you dont know.

I’ve thought about this before and since it’s seems to be the common consensus that a map can be easily discovered by hooking up to a computer if this was to happen I’m confident that the original remap would’ve left a discoverable time and date stamp showing it was before my ownership. I’d argue the previous owner hadn’t told me and I don’t have the knowledge or hardware to know how to access this information

 

[B21]

I wonder how many people have bought cars that were previously remapped and they dont know about it.
How can you tell your insurance company your car has been remapped if you dont know.

What if you bought a used vehicle and don’t know if it’s been modified?

You have an obligation to answer Insurers’ questions honestly to the best of your knowledge and belief. If you didn’t know the lights weren’t the standard specification or that the previous owner had to pay for the heated windscreen option, this would be unlikely to cause an issue in the event of a claim. If, however the car had a spoiler or artwork, it would be difficult to argue that you thought it was the norm. Our advice would be if in doubt, ask your Insurer.

What would happen in the event of a claim if I didn’t disclose a modification?

This would depend upon the circumstances. If your failure to disclose vehicle modifications is judged to be deliberate and reckless, Insurers are within their rights to avoid payment of claims and treat your insurance as invalid.

If the disclosure is deemed to not be deliberate, but the Insurers can prove they would have charged an additional premium for the risk, they are able to proportionately reduce the settlement of any claim to reflect this.