New battery
- Thread starter Timdon
- Start date
There are predominately only 2 things that cause a battery to fail early..
1) Sulphation of the plates caused be over discharge...basically battery goes high impedance (voltage is monitored in real time by IBS anyway so registration wont make any difference).
2) Boiling off of electrolyte due to overcharging (temperature of battery is also monitored in real time by IBS so registration won’t make any difference).
It really is as simple as that.
1) Sulphation of the plates caused be over discharge...basically battery goes high impedance (voltage is monitored in real time by IBS anyway so registration wont make any difference).
2) Boiling off of electrolyte due to overcharging (temperature of battery is also monitored in real time by IBS so registration won’t make any difference).
It really is as simple as that.
ph001 said:
It's not the state of charge that it needs to be given. It can estimate that based on the voltage of the battery and the capacity. It's the capacity that the IBS module needs to be given. It gets this from looking at the capacity of battery that has been programmed into the car (hence why you need to code the car if changing to a different battery type) and adaptations for that battery (which is the purpose of the registration, to set these back to to "new" battery defaults).
I'm not debating that your battery works without being registered. But surely as someone with 17 years of work in the battery charging industry you can appreciate that there is a lot of science behind charging cells.
The state of charge of the battery is really just capacity remaining anyway so the two are virtually the same thing. Both can be calculated rather accurately by simply measuring voltage.
There has been a lot of science behind charging lead acid batteries just fine for the last 50 years. How the hell car manufacturers managed all this in the past without an IBS and battery registration is a wonder of the modern world!
There has been a lot of science behind charging lead acid batteries just fine for the last 50 years. How the hell car manufacturers managed all this in the past without an IBS and battery registration is a wonder of the modern world!
ph001 said:
A knackered old battery might read 12.3 volts at full charge whereas the brand new battery should see above 12.7. The car will have a variable charging curve which uses the age of the battery as a variable.
That's progress I suppose. Same with coil on plug ignition systems, lambda sensors and direct injection. They worked without it 30 years ago, but weren't nearly as fast and efficient. Some people want carburettors and distributors back and complain about the complexity of modern technology, but the rest just get on with it.
One of the primary justifications of IBS was to allow effective implementation of efficient dynamics - the umbrella term used to describe all manner of measures to increase engine efficiency and reduce emissions. One of those was braking energy regeneration, a somewhat confusing term whereby the alternator only charges the battery when the car is coasting, braking, or decelerating.
The ECU has a rather strict set of parameters that it looks at to decide whether or not it will engage brake energy regen. One of those is remaining battery capacity and part of that algorithm looks at amps and hours in vs amps and hours out (i.e. remaining Ah capacity). That was the main premise behind registering the capacity of the battery at install.
Look deeper into how lead acids degrade though and you will find the rate of degradation enormously variable. They even vary by as much as 10% right out of the box. Manufacturers knew they couldn't rely solely on 'time since install' and 'amps & hours in/out' to ascertain capacity so the algorithm was written so that cell voltage overrides everything. Something that is monitored in real time. It's also the reason why connecting an external charger directly across your battery has no negative effects whatsoever (but hang on, doesn't the IBS now have a load of incorrect data in it as to the charge state of the battery???)....oh yes it does, buy hey it doesn't seem to matter. Well that's because:
THE ONLY RELIABLE way to ascertain if a battery is fully charged is to put a constant voltage across it and look for charge current tailing off (well you can also look at specific gravity of the electrolyte but that's hardly practical). It's just how lead acid batteries work, and always have done. Yes, batteries have got better in terms of electrolyte storage (i.e. AGM), impedance and longevity (silver, calcium etc) but they still approach full charge the same way as they always have done, and nothing involved with battery registration will make the slightest bit of difference to that.
I have enjoyed discussing the technicalities of all this but ultimately people will just make up their own mind whether to bother with registration or not. I've tried to keep things as factual as possible with established science on how lead acids work rather than bluntly saying things should or should not be done and I'm probably going to leave it at that.
The ECU has a rather strict set of parameters that it looks at to decide whether or not it will engage brake energy regen. One of those is remaining battery capacity and part of that algorithm looks at amps and hours in vs amps and hours out (i.e. remaining Ah capacity). That was the main premise behind registering the capacity of the battery at install.
Look deeper into how lead acids degrade though and you will find the rate of degradation enormously variable. They even vary by as much as 10% right out of the box. Manufacturers knew they couldn't rely solely on 'time since install' and 'amps & hours in/out' to ascertain capacity so the algorithm was written so that cell voltage overrides everything. Something that is monitored in real time. It's also the reason why connecting an external charger directly across your battery has no negative effects whatsoever (but hang on, doesn't the IBS now have a load of incorrect data in it as to the charge state of the battery???)....oh yes it does, buy hey it doesn't seem to matter. Well that's because:
THE ONLY RELIABLE way to ascertain if a battery is fully charged is to put a constant voltage across it and look for charge current tailing off (well you can also look at specific gravity of the electrolyte but that's hardly practical). It's just how lead acid batteries work, and always have done. Yes, batteries have got better in terms of electrolyte storage (i.e. AGM), impedance and longevity (silver, calcium etc) but they still approach full charge the same way as they always have done, and nothing involved with battery registration will make the slightest bit of difference to that.
I have enjoyed discussing the technicalities of all this but ultimately people will just make up their own mind whether to bother with registration or not. I've tried to keep things as factual as possible with established science on how lead acids work rather than bluntly saying things should or should not be done and I'm probably going to leave it at that.
A
Anonymous
Guest
TopDMC said:
To distill it down. If you have an E89 then you need an AGM battery....there are two sizes one for non stop start and one for stop start.
Stop start was only fitted to later 18/20/28 manual models.
You can fit the bigger battery to all cars.
If the incoming battery is the same size (capacity in ah) as the outcimimg it needs to be registered.
If it’s a different capacity then it will need to be recoded and registered..
Hope that’s clear...
tintoverano
Active member
it is not a must, but perhaps you are better off at the end according to this below:
Efficient Use of Energy for Enhanced Driving Dynamics: Intelligent Alternator Control and Regeneration of Brake Energy
The objective pursued by BMW's engine development specialists is to maximise the standard of driving dynamics developed from every litre or gallon of fuel. And indeed – the combustion engines featured in BMW's latest models offer a significantly higher level of efficiency than the power units in former model generations, consuming less fuel but providing more power and performance.
The fact nevertheless remains that even today only about 25–30 per cent of the energy contained in fuel is actually used for driving the vehicle. Most of the energy consumed is still converted into heat, although the fuel burnt also serves to generate electrical energy for the on-board network. To make the development of electrical energy in the vehicle more efficient.
BMW has developed Intelligent Alternator Control (IAC) serving to generate electric power exclusively in overrun and when the driver is applying the brakes. On the road, this means more energy for enhanced driving dynamics when driving under power with the engine “pulling” the car, for example when accelerating. And to enhance driving efficiency to an even higher level, IAC also incorporates a system for regenerating brake energy. The demand for electrical energy is consistently increasing in the modern automobile. Air conditioning, telecommunications, entertainment, as well as new components for enhanced safety and driving dynamics such as suspension management, Active Steering, engine management, and ABS all require electric power. Hence, the generation of electricity for the car’s on-board network consumes an increasing share of the power generated by the engine. Precisely for this reason BMW has developed IAC in order to generate electrical energy in the car even more efficiently and use that energy for a wider range of purposes and functions.
BMW is pursuing two objectives in this process: First, to limit the overall consumption of energy without any loss of function. Second, to control the conversion of energy from fuel into electric power with enhanced efficiency, minimising losses in the overall energy balance. BMW’s current models already incorporate important features and technologies to reach both of these objectives, intelligent management of the flow of energy already being ensured in series production. One example is the new electrical coolant pumps in BMW's straight-six power units already operating exactly – and only – when required, meaning that they develop their maximum output and performance only at high and very high speeds, while remaining passive immediately after the engine has been started, ensuring in this way that the engine is warmed up more quickly. This alone helps to reduce fuel consumption in the EU homologation test by approximately 2 per cent. BMW has also developed a further energy management system now monitoring the status of the battery in an increasing number of model series: The Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) ensures a sufficient level of electrical energy at all times for starting and re-starting the car, preventing any overload in the supply of energy and the risk of discharging the battery as a result. Following clearly defined priorities, the flow of energy to functions serving exclusively to enhance motoring comfort (such as the seat heating or air conditioning) may therefore be reduced, providing sufficient energy at all times for safety-relevant functions and maintaining an adequate reserve for starting
the engine.
Controlled generation of electric power preventing the loss of energy.
Apart from fuel consumption, Intelligent Alternator Control is also able to enhance the time of energy conversion in the interest of maximum efficiency. So far, electrical energy has been generated consistently under all driving conditions and in all phases of motoring, the alternator is driven permanently by a belt running on the crankshaft. In future the alternator is to be driven primarily when the car itself has no need for engine power, that is in overrun or when applying the brakes, while remaining “passive” when the car is under power, with the engine “pulling” the vehicle. This will provide a greater share of the energy contained in the fuel for actually propelling the vehicle, for example when accelerating, with the onboard network being supplied with power exclusively by the battery under such conditions. The alternator, in turn, only becomes active again when the engine switches to overrun or if the battery charge is insufficient.
Brake Energy Regeneration: Turning the brakes into a source of energy.
The objective of this development is to generate electrical energy without using engine power and, accordingly, any of the energy contained in the fuel. Such “inexpensive” electrical energy is generated not only during overrun via the alternator, but also when applying the brakes through recuperation of energy released in the process, a power converter fitted directly within the brake system converting the energy generated upon application of the brakes into electric power and thus feeding energy previously wasted on the brake discs into the car’s on-board network. Direct conversion of fuel into electrical energy is restricted to just a few exceptional cases. An important prerequisite for energy management geared to current driving conditions is to control the battery charge specifically as required. Depending on ambient conditions, therefore, the battery is charged to only about 80 per cent of its capacity whenever the engine is pulling the vehicle, always maintaining an adequate reserve for the consumption of energy at a standstill and for starting the vehicle. A higher charge level is generated only when the vehicle is in overrun or upon application of the brakes, that is in phases with a better energy balance. With the number of charge cycles increasing thanks to these specific control functions, BMW combines Intelligent Alternator Control with modern AGM (absorbant glass mat) batteries able to handle a far higher load than conventional lead/acid batteries by embedding acid in microglass fibre mats between the layers of lead. Such batteries are able to store energy for a long time even when charged and discharged frequently.
Efficient Use of Energy for Enhanced Driving Dynamics: Intelligent Alternator Control and Regeneration of Brake Energy
The objective pursued by BMW's engine development specialists is to maximise the standard of driving dynamics developed from every litre or gallon of fuel. And indeed – the combustion engines featured in BMW's latest models offer a significantly higher level of efficiency than the power units in former model generations, consuming less fuel but providing more power and performance.
The fact nevertheless remains that even today only about 25–30 per cent of the energy contained in fuel is actually used for driving the vehicle. Most of the energy consumed is still converted into heat, although the fuel burnt also serves to generate electrical energy for the on-board network. To make the development of electrical energy in the vehicle more efficient.
BMW has developed Intelligent Alternator Control (IAC) serving to generate electric power exclusively in overrun and when the driver is applying the brakes. On the road, this means more energy for enhanced driving dynamics when driving under power with the engine “pulling” the car, for example when accelerating. And to enhance driving efficiency to an even higher level, IAC also incorporates a system for regenerating brake energy. The demand for electrical energy is consistently increasing in the modern automobile. Air conditioning, telecommunications, entertainment, as well as new components for enhanced safety and driving dynamics such as suspension management, Active Steering, engine management, and ABS all require electric power. Hence, the generation of electricity for the car’s on-board network consumes an increasing share of the power generated by the engine. Precisely for this reason BMW has developed IAC in order to generate electrical energy in the car even more efficiently and use that energy for a wider range of purposes and functions.
BMW is pursuing two objectives in this process: First, to limit the overall consumption of energy without any loss of function. Second, to control the conversion of energy from fuel into electric power with enhanced efficiency, minimising losses in the overall energy balance. BMW’s current models already incorporate important features and technologies to reach both of these objectives, intelligent management of the flow of energy already being ensured in series production. One example is the new electrical coolant pumps in BMW's straight-six power units already operating exactly – and only – when required, meaning that they develop their maximum output and performance only at high and very high speeds, while remaining passive immediately after the engine has been started, ensuring in this way that the engine is warmed up more quickly. This alone helps to reduce fuel consumption in the EU homologation test by approximately 2 per cent. BMW has also developed a further energy management system now monitoring the status of the battery in an increasing number of model series: The Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) ensures a sufficient level of electrical energy at all times for starting and re-starting the car, preventing any overload in the supply of energy and the risk of discharging the battery as a result. Following clearly defined priorities, the flow of energy to functions serving exclusively to enhance motoring comfort (such as the seat heating or air conditioning) may therefore be reduced, providing sufficient energy at all times for safety-relevant functions and maintaining an adequate reserve for starting
the engine.
Controlled generation of electric power preventing the loss of energy.
Apart from fuel consumption, Intelligent Alternator Control is also able to enhance the time of energy conversion in the interest of maximum efficiency. So far, electrical energy has been generated consistently under all driving conditions and in all phases of motoring, the alternator is driven permanently by a belt running on the crankshaft. In future the alternator is to be driven primarily when the car itself has no need for engine power, that is in overrun or when applying the brakes, while remaining “passive” when the car is under power, with the engine “pulling” the vehicle. This will provide a greater share of the energy contained in the fuel for actually propelling the vehicle, for example when accelerating, with the onboard network being supplied with power exclusively by the battery under such conditions. The alternator, in turn, only becomes active again when the engine switches to overrun or if the battery charge is insufficient.
Brake Energy Regeneration: Turning the brakes into a source of energy.
The objective of this development is to generate electrical energy without using engine power and, accordingly, any of the energy contained in the fuel. Such “inexpensive” electrical energy is generated not only during overrun via the alternator, but also when applying the brakes through recuperation of energy released in the process, a power converter fitted directly within the brake system converting the energy generated upon application of the brakes into electric power and thus feeding energy previously wasted on the brake discs into the car’s on-board network. Direct conversion of fuel into electrical energy is restricted to just a few exceptional cases. An important prerequisite for energy management geared to current driving conditions is to control the battery charge specifically as required. Depending on ambient conditions, therefore, the battery is charged to only about 80 per cent of its capacity whenever the engine is pulling the vehicle, always maintaining an adequate reserve for the consumption of energy at a standstill and for starting the vehicle. A higher charge level is generated only when the vehicle is in overrun or upon application of the brakes, that is in phases with a better energy balance. With the number of charge cycles increasing thanks to these specific control functions, BMW combines Intelligent Alternator Control with modern AGM (absorbant glass mat) batteries able to handle a far higher load than conventional lead/acid batteries by embedding acid in microglass fibre mats between the layers of lead. Such batteries are able to store energy for a long time even when charged and discharged frequently.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I think if you spend your time googling the battery manufacturers they ALL state that advanced cars with regeneration need AGM, the ones with stop start will need an AGM but maybe with larger capacity..
A
Anonymous
Guest
Tinker15 said:
https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/battery-finder?type=pc&year=2010&make=16&model=8033&engine=31018&etn=580+901+080%7C570+901+076%7C&rec_etn=570+901+076%7C&ss_etn=580+901+080%7C570+901+076%7C&literal_search=%7B%22type%22%3A%22Passenger+Car%22%2C%22year%22%3A%222010%22%2C%22make%22%3A%22BMW%22%2C%22model%22%3A%22Z4+Roadster+%28E89%29%22%2C%22engine%22%3A%22sDrive+30+i+%28190+kW+%2F+258+PS%29%22%7D
http://batteryfinder.ecobat.tech/numax-agm-automotive-start-stop-1.html
OK so I’ve bought a Varta Silver Dynamic battery with the same Ah and CCC as the one fitted but AGM. What will I I need to reset on the car if I fit it myself? I can get it registered when I take my car for an oil service at a local independent next week.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Tinker15 said:
If you do it yourself you will need a Carly type app or equivalent..
If you are going next week for a service get it done there, simple, no hassle, a week, based on battery for battery swap is not going to be a short term issue..just do it!
IMHO of course!
A
Anonymous
Guest
Make it so!Tinker15 said:Thanks guys. Battery fitted, windows and clock reset and everything seems to be working as it should.Will have the battery registered next week.
