N52 3.0SI improvement potential vs LSX swap kit

20posaunen

New member
After reading quite a bit on the forums here about the small HP increase potential of N52 engines and the big $$$$ owners spend to squeeze out a few extra HP, I'm wondering why no company has developed an e85 LS swap kit.
It seems like a great solution for those who want the bigger power gains, but love their z4 and don't want to buy a bigger, heavier car. As prices for the e85 continue to drop and there are more higher-mileage cars available, this should be a legitimate option!

If so many can make it work for a MX-5, why not the larger BMW e85?
https://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/
http://miataroadster.com/v8-roadsters/v8-roadsters-lsx-mounting-kits/g-67691.aspx
http://monstermiata.webs.com/v8monsterkit.htm

The e36 has a kit:
http://www.vorshlag.com/index.php?cPath=1_4_63

It works in a z3, too:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/04/29/2000-bmw-z3-m-roadster-ls1/
http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6822

The primary obstacle, besides ECU, would probably be routing the exhaust. And that sounds like a problem that could be fixed with side pipes! 8) Seriously though, if an established shop (like Vorshlag) could create a kit that solves the major fitment and application issues, I believe there would be significant interest.

It's just too much of an undertaking for most of us to go it alone:
http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=841655
http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50644&start=60

But I'd wager that most of us would like a 500hp+ LS7 inside our beautiful, sweet handling e85 z4! Am I right?!?
 
20posaunen said:
But I'd wager that most of us would like a 500hp+ LS7 inside our beautiful, sweet handling e85 z4! Am I right?!?

Go look and see how many miles people make in cars with insane engine swaps.

There is a reason that those cars prmarily are standing still. Not on sheer technical aspects but you loose a lot of driveability/usability.

It's nice to have such car as a hobby, use it as a track car, or at shows, but you'd have to be pretty brave to do a euro trip with it.
Do you use your Z for holidays?

Most of those topics seem to die out and never show a finished product.
 
GuidoK, you're being ridiculous!

Try telling BMW that a 500+hp V8 engine is going to make the 5 series completely undrivable and that people will only use it on the track to to go to car shows...

You don't have to drive everywhere with your right foot buried in the carpet :roll:

LS engine would be great in the Z4 :)
 
No you don't get my point.
I don't mean that you cant drive the car because of the horsepower, but that it looses so much useability and reliability.
If your car stops on the track its no fun, but if you're in the middle of nowhere in italy or france it's a whole different story.

Or do you drive +10k miles/year in an LS swapped z4 and use it for your holidays etc?
 
I think GuidoK means that these conversions seldom run 100% And that you will find that garden shed engineering is not quite as good as the might of a global motor company like BMW. They dont spend millions of R&D to make cars work right feel right and drive right just for fun.

Sure some people poses the ability and knowledge to do these things. But most dont. And its not just a case of sticking a big V8 in the front and getting it running.
 
No I have a highly tuned 500+hp Nissan 200SX which I drive all over Europe. My mate Ken has a 700hp Procharged LS2 swap in his 200SX and does the same. I'd say his car is actually more reliable and usable than mine...

You've got to remember that there's a lot less to go wrong on an LS motor. It's a very simple design.
 
Machine monkey said:
I guess i was right :rofl:

You are , I've done a couple of rover v8 conversions in my youth and I can testify they were crap :lol: always a loose wire somewhere , god knows how someone would fair these days with all the sensors , the main reason I don't have a tvr these days is they are basically home made .
It's a great feeling being able to jump in the car and drive to Spain without a second thought :driving:
 
If its done right and things like additional front end weight. Correct steering coulomb alignment spring rates. And you dont get a ham fissted donkey to do the wiring!! They can work. I think your miss understanding what i said. Most of the time people dont fully understand whats involved and right screw things up.

Sounds like a nice selection of cars.

I am in the process of helping (our mate) Mr Bizzle put a V8 in his Supra. So i am not against doing these things far from it. Just do the research and have deeper pockets than you think you will need.
 
Mister T said:
No I have a highly tuned 500+hp Nissan 200SX which I drive all over Europe. My mate Ken has a 700hp Procharged LS2 swap in his 200SX and does the same. I'd say his car is actually more reliable and usable than mine...

You've got to remember that there's a lot less to go wrong on an LS motor. It's a very simple design.

yes and that's much simpeler car. Also a tuned car with the same engine is quite different than a swap.

That ls2 swap. Does it still has aircon? Central locking?
Does it have alarm/starterblocking? powered steering?

All these things are integrated in a bmw. A 200sx is an ancient car compared to a z4.
And ancient is good. Ancient means simple. Japanese cars are generally simpeler than european cars anyway when it comes to integrated systems.

And how many miles does he drive? More than 5k/year?

It's never the engine that goes wrong. It's the auxilary systems. all the integrated stuff. That's the difficult part to sort out.
Look at that v10 z4 topic. The engine was placed pretty quickly. Then came the electronics. I think that has taken up far more time.

I haven't tried it but it would be a great experiment. Remove the ecu and see what systems still work. I wouldnt be surprised if the radio even wouldn't work. I have no idea why that would be connected to the ecu, but I just wouldn't be surprised :D
 
Apart from the air conditioning everything else works like standard, and it's barely 5 years older than a Z4 ;) Not sure on mileage, but was at Le Mans this year and that's a 1000 mile round trip.

Machine monkey said:
Just do the research and have deeper pockets than you think you will need.

Pretty much sums it up :)
 
GuidoK said:
Mister T said:
No I have a highly tuned 500+hp Nissan 200SX which I drive all over Europe. My mate Ken has a 700hp Procharged LS2 swap in his 200SX and does the same. I'd say his car is actually more reliable and usable than mine...

You've got to remember that there's a lot less to go wrong on an LS motor. It's a very simple design.

yes and that's much simpeler car. Also a tuned car with the same engine is quite different than a swap.

That ls2 swap. Does it still has aircon? Central locking?
Does it have alarm/starterblocking? powered steering?

All these things are integrated in a bmw. A 200sx is an ancient car compared to a z4.
And ancient is good. Ancient means simple. Japanese cars are generally simpeler than european cars anyway when it comes to integrated systems.

And how many miles does he drive? More than 5k/year?

It's never the engine that goes wrong. It's the auxilary systems. all the integrated stuff. That's the difficult part to sort out.
Look at that v10 z4 topic. The engine was placed pretty quickly. Then came the electronics. I think that has taken up far more time.

I haven't tried it but it would be a great experiment. Remove the ecu and see what systems still work. I wouldnt be surprised if the radio even wouldn't work. I have no idea why that would be connected to the ecu, but I just wouldn't be surprised :D



Okay, keep in mind that my idea was a well-planned kit produced by a company with experience in BMW/LS powertrain swaps (like Vorshlag). The idea is that they provide an instruction book and all the necessary parts to make it work available for the buyer.

FWIW, the corvette has it's own ECU, as well as AC, power steering, etc. I'm proposing neither that all electronics and accessories would remain from the e85, nor that they all be transplanted from the vette. The radio is arguably not as important in a convertible with a 427 V8 soundtrack, but corvettes also have radios like every other car (even bluetooth integration that could probably be plugged into the z4 steering controls and microphone). But those options aren't a deal-breaker for a driver's car IMO.
I'm also not so sure that electric accessories like heated seats, door locks, and convertible top controls, would necessarily be affected by the drivetrain swap, but I readily admit that I'm not an expert on the topic. That's the whole reason for having the skilled shop of experts produce schematics, a new wiring harness, accessory solutions, mounting hardware, maybe a new drive shaft of the correct length, or whatever they deem is necessary for functionality of the vehicle.

They figured all this stuff out with what they describe as simple solutions at Renegade Hybrids, dealing exclusively with "complex European" Porsches. http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

So, in short, my idea is actually to avoid "garden shed engineering." I love the reliability of my z4 and it is currently my daily driver. This conversion isn't really an option for a daily driver, anyway, right? I mean how would you get to work in the meantime?
But, for those who use their cars on weekends, only in fair weather, and have disposable income - those who spend big $$$$ squeezing relatively small HP from an N52 - a well-planned LS3/LS7 swap seems like a fantastic option! You can even find a whole C6 corvette rolling chassis fairly easily (at least here in the USA).

The weight distribution would even be improved with the LS swap in comparison to the S54 swap BMW made for the Z4M. Also, an LS7 would nearly double the estimated power/weight ratio of a 3.0si z4. The GM engines typically cost less to maintain than an S54 as well, but that's a mute point given the cost of the swap. Adding forced induction to an S54 (the only way to approach LS power numbers) further increases maintenance/reliability concerns and adds more weight still.

GM LS3 = 415 lbs (3175 lbs total in a Z4 & 7.28 lb/bhp)
GM LS7 = 440 lbs (3200 lbs total in a Z4 & 6.34 lb/bhp)
BMW S54B32 = 478 lbs (3197 lbs total in Z4M & 9.69 lb/bhp)
BMW N52 = 326 lbs (3,086 lbs in a Z4 & 12.10 lb/hp)
These estimates assume power output similar to each engine's original application and total weight was calculated for LS Z4 applications by only adjusting the engine weight from a stock 3.0si. It's hard to estimate the real weight with all the other necessary changes (transmission, for example).
 
How many ess supercharger kits do you think you could buy for the cost of a pukka v8 conversion with the attention to detail of a factory install
I will start the bidding a 5
 
You may be right about the price difference - it's really impossible to know unless they actually design and sell the LS kit.
The ESS charger for the N52 makes very little improvement in comparison, though. It is newly developed and only safely boosts 4-5 psi from what I read. We don't know much about reliability/longevity yet.
That may be different for the M54 cars, but I'm talking about options for owners of the N52 cars in this thread. The options are few, all expensive, and provide only minor improvements in comparison to increasing the displacement by 4 liters.
 
Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I've never thought I wish I had more power from either of my Z4's.

But if this does become a thing, it could prove interesting.
 
I'd like another 100-150bhp so supercharger would be fine with some internals.

It struggles for traction a bit already so 500bhp and loads of torque is going to result in more wheelspin than is fun or sensible. Part of the fun is extracting all the performance using all the revs but when you have too much power for the road you can do this less and for less time before you are travelling too fast. In some ways this equals less fun.
 
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