My 6 to 10 speaker upgrade
- Thread starter veryverydarkblue
- Start date
ph001 said:Thats what I should have done. Any idea of the part number for those captive nuts?
65 13 8 387 414
This site is great for finding parts - e.g.,
https://www.hubauer-shop.de/en/carp...onic-systems-bu51/bu51-651219-lautspr/?page=3
I ordered the grills and nuts from here and arrived from Germany in 7 days.
BIG further update this evening, particularly for anyone who's sealed their enclosures
So, it turns out (having got my inspection camera out), that the large rectangular 'ports' at the top of the sub enclosures enter a sealed channel between the two boxes. i.e. if you seal everything else up and play out of one sub only, the other starts acting as a passive radiator. Unsurprisingly, this extra volume adds some significant extra low frequency response. Whilst it's still no 12incher, it adds some really useful extra heft down low and combines with the fronts for a solid thump. Given that I don't have the OEM port 'grommit' 65 10 6 925 363, I've used some speaker stuffing to calm any air in the area down
I was worried for a bit that this setup was still a bit weak down low, but the outcome following today's revelation has me now feeling that it was money well spent. It would be interesting to compare it side by side with an OEM 6 and 10 speaker setup and see where it's ended up.
Few pics from today.
Ugly HU out:
Business CD HU in:
Enclosure sealing - mdf plug now removed. Since this, sound deadening and enclosure stuffing added
OEM grills now on, rear trimmed back by c.10mm to clear the speakers
Current setting - red dots for clarity
So, it turns out (having got my inspection camera out), that the large rectangular 'ports' at the top of the sub enclosures enter a sealed channel between the two boxes. i.e. if you seal everything else up and play out of one sub only, the other starts acting as a passive radiator. Unsurprisingly, this extra volume adds some significant extra low frequency response. Whilst it's still no 12incher, it adds some really useful extra heft down low and combines with the fronts for a solid thump. Given that I don't have the OEM port 'grommit' 65 10 6 925 363, I've used some speaker stuffing to calm any air in the area down
I was worried for a bit that this setup was still a bit weak down low, but the outcome following today's revelation has me now feeling that it was money well spent. It would be interesting to compare it side by side with an OEM 6 and 10 speaker setup and see where it's ended up.
Few pics from today.
Ugly HU out:
Business CD HU in:
Enclosure sealing - mdf plug now removed. Since this, sound deadening and enclosure stuffing added
OEM grills now on, rear trimmed back by c.10mm to clear the speakers
Current setting - red dots for clarity
veryverydarkblue said:
That’s really interesting.... I always wondered where the space behind the port went, but I certainly didn’t expect it to go to the other enclosure!!!!
If you are finding the bass is better with one of your subs not powered though it’s because your phasing is wrong. Swap the speaker wires around on one of your subs and you should hear a big improvement. You then need to ensure the phasing is correct with your front speakers.
There is a great little ios app for checking speaker phase called ‘Speaker pop’. It costs about a fiver iirc but it’s such a big time saver.
The main problem I had with leaving the ports open was a lot of vibration and resonance all around the rear bulkhead. Sounded very ‘farty’. Not good at all.
Thanks for the part no. by the way
Sorry, I should have been clearer. Definitely need both subs working for the sound, but the connection seems to let the boxes act as one larger chamber, plus the additional volume in the channel itself.
The ‘passive radiator’ point was just proof to me that it is in fact still fully sealed with the rectangular ports open
The ‘passive radiator’ point was just proof to me that it is in fact still fully sealed with the rectangular ports open
2 weeks later... final update for now:
As I completed some further sealing I'd missed of the individual sub enclosures I was increasingly finding some emerging issues as ph001 did with buzzing from around the bulkhead with the open top ports. That lead me to try opening up the rear circular enclosure holes again (in combination with the central channel) and for some reason I was now getting good low frequency response from the mostly open system, no buzzing, however quite a lot of booming with the sound bouncing around the boot, including rather anti-social external sound! I'm putting the better frequency response (vs. 'day 1' test) down to a combination of the sealing of the rest of the boxes, putting the boot carpet back in and the Reckhorn drivers loosening up. It seemed the sweet spot (for me anyway) was lying somewhere between the two setups...
As such, I ordered the OE 'soft boxes' and ports for the enclosures which, I'm hypothesising, with the open holes behind them is softening the pressure spikes in the combined enclosures but still giving the subs something to work against. In summary, it's a complex OE systems of chambers, ports and damping giving a mixture of characteristics of both sealed and ported designs, including a high level of interaction between L & R. (As such, it's impossible to do an effective Left vs. Right test)
So far, so good with this setup. No rattling or buzzing but healthy deep bass, particularly in tandem with the powered Focal AS3s up front.
OE soft boxes and grommits (i.e. 'ports') installed:
So, what did I learn...
- With some extra power behind them the Focal 165-AS3s are a big improvement over the OE 6 speaker front setup. With the tweeters set to -3db on the crossovers, and the head unit treble on '+1', this gives the most natural top end. (Comparing to Bose QC35 headphones for reference). Adjust further if required from the head unit.
- The Business CD head unit outputs perfectly reasonable speaker level signals at most volume level: i.e. as long as they aren't expected to drive anything, and avoiding very high volumes, where the bass seems pegged back. As long as your input volume (e.g. phone bluetooth) and amp gain are correctly set, this isn't an issue, and may even save your speakers in extremis.
- A very different sound profile would be ideal for open top vs. closed and town vs. motorway. What works for one is compromised for the other, however the head-unit bass and treble controls actually adjust the sound quite nicely.
- The rear subwoofer enclosure(s) is/are complex! The OE enclosure setup with the reckhorns is working for me
- Never buy a car without upgraded audio (unless it's got an s54)
If I did it again...
- I'd go for the Focal Flax Evo components (c.£500 vs. £170) and ignore the subs for 'phase 1', keeping the 4 channel amp for flexibility. Whilst the Focal AS3s are a big step up over OE, they still don't compare for refinement against my pretty basic and mostly ageing home hifi (sonos amp, wharfedale pacific EVO 20 floor standers (c.2004), MJ acoustics ref.100 sub (c.2007))
As I completed some further sealing I'd missed of the individual sub enclosures I was increasingly finding some emerging issues as ph001 did with buzzing from around the bulkhead with the open top ports. That lead me to try opening up the rear circular enclosure holes again (in combination with the central channel) and for some reason I was now getting good low frequency response from the mostly open system, no buzzing, however quite a lot of booming with the sound bouncing around the boot, including rather anti-social external sound! I'm putting the better frequency response (vs. 'day 1' test) down to a combination of the sealing of the rest of the boxes, putting the boot carpet back in and the Reckhorn drivers loosening up. It seemed the sweet spot (for me anyway) was lying somewhere between the two setups...
As such, I ordered the OE 'soft boxes' and ports for the enclosures which, I'm hypothesising, with the open holes behind them is softening the pressure spikes in the combined enclosures but still giving the subs something to work against. In summary, it's a complex OE systems of chambers, ports and damping giving a mixture of characteristics of both sealed and ported designs, including a high level of interaction between L & R. (As such, it's impossible to do an effective Left vs. Right test)
So far, so good with this setup. No rattling or buzzing but healthy deep bass, particularly in tandem with the powered Focal AS3s up front.
OE soft boxes and grommits (i.e. 'ports') installed:
So, what did I learn...
- With some extra power behind them the Focal 165-AS3s are a big improvement over the OE 6 speaker front setup. With the tweeters set to -3db on the crossovers, and the head unit treble on '+1', this gives the most natural top end. (Comparing to Bose QC35 headphones for reference). Adjust further if required from the head unit.
- The Business CD head unit outputs perfectly reasonable speaker level signals at most volume level: i.e. as long as they aren't expected to drive anything, and avoiding very high volumes, where the bass seems pegged back. As long as your input volume (e.g. phone bluetooth) and amp gain are correctly set, this isn't an issue, and may even save your speakers in extremis.
- A very different sound profile would be ideal for open top vs. closed and town vs. motorway. What works for one is compromised for the other, however the head-unit bass and treble controls actually adjust the sound quite nicely.
- The rear subwoofer enclosure(s) is/are complex! The OE enclosure setup with the reckhorns is working for me
- Never buy a car without upgraded audio (unless it's got an s54)
If I did it again...
- I'd go for the Focal Flax Evo components (c.£500 vs. £170) and ignore the subs for 'phase 1', keeping the 4 channel amp for flexibility. Whilst the Focal AS3s are a big step up over OE, they still don't compare for refinement against my pretty basic and mostly ageing home hifi (sonos amp, wharfedale pacific EVO 20 floor standers (c.2004), MJ acoustics ref.100 sub (c.2007))
This is something I am looking to do at some point. Have the components, just need to find the time! I went with TangBand subs which seem to get decent reviews although I haven't heard yet. One question, what was the cost of the 'soft boxes' and port? Did you just order from dealer? Thanks.
Bellur said:
I ordered online from Hubauer in Germany (again). Soft boxes and ports came to £58 total delivered
https://www.hubauer-shop.de/en/car...onic-systems-bu51/bu51-651219-lautspr/?page=3 Items 9 and 10
mark_101 said:
After some sweet talking and financial lubrication, Z4C_er very kindly agreed to print and send me a pair of his own design. As you mention, they are indeed excellent, with a perfectly judged interference fit, saving a lot of blood, sweat and tears from me.
Good stuff!
So, couple of final hints i'd give based on my experience of the 3-way install:
1) The woofers fit pretty securely on both sides even without adaptors. Not perfect but entirely workable to get going
2) WD40 really helped lube up the new cables for the mids to get them through the flexible rubber 'tubes' into the doors
3) The 5 metal clips across the top of the door card just need plenty of effort. I'd start at the front and work back. Remove tweeter pods first.
4) I drastically increased the size of the tweeter holes with the dremmel (probably 5mm or so all around) including all of the retaining structure for the old tweeter, to help them fit flush before Aralditing. The tweeter grills can be easily removed by folding up the tabs to avoid damaging them.
Have fun!
So, couple of final hints i'd give based on my experience of the 3-way install:
1) The woofers fit pretty securely on both sides even without adaptors. Not perfect but entirely workable to get going
2) WD40 really helped lube up the new cables for the mids to get them through the flexible rubber 'tubes' into the doors
3) The 5 metal clips across the top of the door card just need plenty of effort. I'd start at the front and work back. Remove tweeter pods first.
4) I drastically increased the size of the tweeter holes with the dremmel (probably 5mm or so all around) including all of the retaining structure for the old tweeter, to help them fit flush before Aralditing. The tweeter grills can be easily removed by folding up the tabs to avoid damaging them.
Have fun!
opcorn:
The speakers are done - thanks for the advice and hints, and of course to [ref]Z4C_er[/ref] for some very elegant mid range mounts!
I soldered the connection into the existing loom, mainly because the stock cables were a bit thin to have a good crimp. The rest were crimped or screwed. No major dramas, although it does look like a previous owner attempted to remove the door cards and vapour barrier using their teeth! :headbang:
I put the crossovers under the seats and am running it all off the head unit for now. I'm very pleasantly surprised with sound, and will continue with the addition of subs and an amp when it's off the road for the winter. I'll try to remember to upload some pictures later.
I soldered the connection into the existing loom, mainly because the stock cables were a bit thin to have a good crimp. The rest were crimped or screwed. No major dramas, although it does look like a previous owner attempted to remove the door cards and vapour barrier using their teeth! :headbang:
I put the crossovers under the seats and am running it all off the head unit for now. I'm very pleasantly surprised with sound, and will continue with the addition of subs and an amp when it's off the road for the winter. I'll try to remember to upload some pictures later.
Whilst I was pretty happy with where I'd got to with my system, a quiet day in the home office got me thinking... Can I make it sound even better without spending any more money and risking my marriage any further? I remembered someone mention that it was possible to tap into the pre-amp circuit of the head unit, so with a spare HU to play around with I went to work...
Borrowing from the work of peste https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67249 I tapped into connections 11,12,13,14,15 of the amplifier chip (Inputs: 1,2,ground,3,4 respectively). 11 and 15 are for the rears, 12 and 14 are for the fronts. The RCA cable I hacked up now exits the rear of the unit via a new slot next to the aerial connection. A nervous test run went as planned with all 4 outputting a clean pre-amp signal. The amplifier board is identical between the Business Nav and Business CD HUs so I'll swap them over rather than risk a second soldering attempt!
All I need to do now is dismantle the interior of the car again and run 2 sets of RCA cables from front to back.
I haven't picked up a soldering iron since secondary school, so it was very rewarding for it to work first time. A magnifying glass would have been a great help though as even these 35ish year old eyes struggled
Borrowing from the work of peste https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67249 I tapped into connections 11,12,13,14,15 of the amplifier chip (Inputs: 1,2,ground,3,4 respectively). 11 and 15 are for the rears, 12 and 14 are for the fronts. The RCA cable I hacked up now exits the rear of the unit via a new slot next to the aerial connection. A nervous test run went as planned with all 4 outputting a clean pre-amp signal. The amplifier board is identical between the Business Nav and Business CD HUs so I'll swap them over rather than risk a second soldering attempt!
All I need to do now is dismantle the interior of the car again and run 2 sets of RCA cables from front to back.
I haven't picked up a soldering iron since secondary school, so it was very rewarding for it to work first time. A magnifying glass would have been a great help though as even these 35ish year old eyes struggled