Migrant crises

[TitanTim]

I agree OG all this freedom of movement bollox has resulted in this mess it's just too easy to freely move from one country to another. The freightening thing is now amongst the chaos how many of these are terrorists, organised crime gangs etc masquerading as immigrants. I'm just glad were an island nation with some sort of physical border control.

Tim.

 

[dr_john]

The current situation in Syria & Iraq appears to be a major factor so for that we can only thank the western governments who went in to remove the dictators , furked off & left the extremists to flourish
Grim times & even grimmer prospects for all affected

This is it.

The spread of ISIS in these areas must be a major factor. If I were anywhere near these barbaric savages I'd get as far away as I could, and I can't really blame anyone else for doing the same.

 

[jimmybell]

This thread is hilarious, and saddening. I think some of you really need to read up on what's going on outside of your small towns, out there in the big wide world .. outside of the daily mail.

Consider looking at the stats on what countries are receiving what volume of migrants (read: asylum seekers being bombed in their home cities). The UK is sat, luckily (and somewhat selfishly) for us, with a water border making it very difficult for people to get here.

The entire world is NOT trying to get to the UK. The world we've helped mess up (Syria, Afghanistan, etc) is trying to get away from despair, war, tyranny etc. Around half the population of Syria has been displaced (many millions of people), hundreds of thousands.. yes, HUNDREDS of thousands have entered some of the least capable EU countries (Greece, Italy).

The UK has had ~14,000 positive Asylum decisions, to the estimated 800k inward migrants to the EU. Someone asked 'why don't they apply at the first country they get to?' - well, lots of them are. We're at the bottom of the list for numbers of asylum applicants. We're hardly struggling, It's an EU crisis, but a UK annoyance at best, compared to our EU partners. The irony of claims on a Z4 owners forum that we're full and can't cope is laughable. I'd hardly say we've "opened the flood gates", i think we've done everything we possibly can to avoid helping, and prevent inward migration.

I don't want our country to be any more over subscribed than the next guy, but life in the UK being more difficult than it used to be isn't an excuse for us to turn our backs on people that really do need our help, and frankly, compared to most of the EU, we can afford to be kind. Some of the blanket categorisation and the ridiculous "lets look after ourselves first" mentality make me glad some people on this forum are not my neighbours.

If we weren't in the EU, we'd be most likely not facing such a huge influx of migrants, asylum seekers, illegal immirants, whatever. Ironically, i suspect we'd be offering much more aid instead. Clearly the freedom of movement principle of the EU was not designed for this kind of issue, especially as the 'edge' countries are the least capable of coping with the crisis.

 

[jimmybell]

Surprising they all come up north to Europe, why not to Russia, or further down in Africa? Very selective.

For the same reason any of us would pick the UK over Russia and Africa.

Africa's most developed country has the some of the worst gun crime/murder rates in the world (plus lots are already in Africa, trying to leave), and Russia isn't exactly in a great fiscal position currently (thanks to us).

Make me a Syrian refugee, and stick me in the middle east with no particular direction and i'm going to be going straight to the most developed, safe, democratic and prosperous countries in the world. USA, Europe, Japan, Australia, etc would be first on my list.

 

[original guvnor]

Jimmy you make some valid points but there are also some major inaccuracies too.

Syria - we haven't helped to mess up Syria at all (unless you consider Parliament's unwillingness to get involved messing it up or unless you consider the general public's deep unhappiness about getting involved messing it up). Syria is where most are apparently coming from (and Eritrea which we've done absolutely nothing to cause either). Of course they are fleeing ISIL or whatever you call that bunch these days but this is the same ISIL that nobody has the stomach to take on. So it seems you are damned if you do and damned if you don't and whichever route you choose the hand-wringers are out in force to criticise you. So when you see images of dead babies on the beach in the Independent remind yourself that it was the Independent and the Guardian and its readers who were the very people expressing outrage at the thought we might go and stop Mr Assad committing genocide against his own people. I guarantee you the images from Syria arising from our inactivity will be far, far worse than a dead baby on a Mediterranean beach, upsetting as that photo is.

UK population - whilst it is correct we aren't taking that many asylum seekers I don't think it is right to mock people who are concerned about net migration into the UK. Last year it was the highest ever at 320,000. Multiply that by 10 years and in less than a generation the population has increased by 5%. That is pretty rapid growth and it places strain on our infrastructure and our public services too. It's not "Daily Mail" to be concerned about that and it's wrong to portray people's legitimate concern about rapid population growth that way. Why do you think UKIP managed to do so well (in terms of votes cast) at the last election? It was precisely because the chattering classes mocked their legitimate concern and they had no political voice or influence.

 

[original guvnor]

And another point - what on earth has happened to the United Nations? I haven't heard a peep out of that organisation recently. This problem is crying out for their intervention.

 

[Jasey]

If Syria had oil we'd be in there in a flash.

 

[TitanTim]

Just because we are an island nation doesn’t make us selfish and in fact we should be grateful looking back in the past.

I completely sympathise with the families trying to flee their home country from conflict and in an ideal world the UK should help as much as it can, this means ensuring such people who are seeking asylum are processed correctly and ensuring they will get employment etc , however I have my doubts from this Countries past immigration record and the mess it gets itself into. I also notice amongst the migrants, groups of young men who in reality IF they managed to enter the UK exactly what life would they have, chances are no job and will get sucked into a life of crime etc etc further draining resources. I don’t know what’s going on in Counties such as Syria etc but I do think why don’t some of these people stand up and fight for their country instead of running away, I’m sure many are but when you look at these young people they look perfectly capable to fight back. All very easy to say I know but if it was your country what would do? Run away or try and fight for it? You only have to look at the past, French resistance, the resistance that was put into place in this country should the worst have happened in the last war, for me that’s what people in other Countries in strife should be thinking and acting upon, not running away. Like I say easy to say these things but if there was war here and I got conscripted would I run away seeking asylum, don’t think I would, have too much pride knowing my father and family did the same in the past..

Tim.

 

[original guvnor]

If Syria had oil we'd be in there in a flash.

Syria as recently as 2010 had $3.2bn of revenue from oil production (25% of their economy).

Next excuse?

 

[Jasey]

If Syria had oil we'd be in there in a flash.

Syria as recently as 2010 had $3.2bn of revenue from oil production (25% of their economy).

Next excuse?

A lot has happened in Syria since 2010

 

[dans6490]

If Syria had oil we'd be in there in a flash.

Syria as recently as 2010 had $3.2bn of revenue from oil production (25% of their economy).

Next excuse?

A lot has happened in Syria since 2010

True, a lot has happened. But I doubt if the oil has disappeared? Surely, if anything, it would be easier to get?

 

[pvr]

I do think why don’t some of these people stand up and fight for their country instead of running away, I’m sure many are but when you look at these young people they look perfectly capable to fight back.

Yes, if you compare that to the second world war, you have the identical pictures of destroyed cities, people floating in canals etc. The European population did not just run off to "safe" countries then. The Kurds are not running away either, but if you do run - go to the first safe place, not to the ones that look nicest.

 

[jimmybell]

Syria - we haven't helped to mess up Syria at all

If you think we were not involved in the arab spring and destabilising Assad's government i think you're very naive. We have a government dept specifically for this, it just didnt go quite to plan.

UK population - whilst it is correct we aren't taking that many asylum seekers I don't think it is right to mock people who are concerned about net migration into the UK. Last year it was the highest ever at 320,000. Multiply that by 10 years and in less than a generation the population has increased by 5%. That is pretty rapid growth and it places strain on our infrastructure and our public services too. It's not "Daily Mail" to be concerned about that and it's wrong to portray people's legitimate concern about rapid population growth that way

I'm not mocking people, i'm suggesting that sat pretty here with out luxury sportscars it's a bit rich to suggest we can't take our share of the human race that currently needs help. It's obvious when people don't do any research and their opinons are just regurgitated headlines that serve the media and politicians (it's funny how we are all aware of their agendas and despise both during elections but forget for the other 4 years). Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, whichever side you fall on - you have to say that these days else risk being branded a hippy liberal.

Faced with some hardship it's very obvious where people's true colours lie. Dead child or not, this is a humanitarian crisis on the scale of millions.

I think it's safer i just ignore Tim, unless he has kids he would like to tell to pick up an AK and fight ISIS and Assad.

 

[dans6490]

Religion has a lot to answer for.

 

[TitanTim]

Syria - we haven't helped to mess up Syria at all

If you think we were not involved in the arab spring and destabilising Assad's government i think you're very naive. We have a government dept specifically for this, it just didnt go quite to plan.

UK population - whilst it is correct we aren't taking that many asylum seekers I don't think it is right to mock people who are concerned about net migration into the UK. Last year it was the highest ever at 320,000. Multiply that by 10 years and in less than a generation the population has increased by 5%. That is pretty rapid growth and it places strain on our infrastructure and our public services too. It's not "Daily Mail" to be concerned about that and it's wrong to portray people's legitimate concern about rapid population growth that way

I'm not mocking people, i'm suggesting that sat pretty here with out luxury sportscars it's a bit rich to suggest we can't take our share of the human race that currently needs help. It's obvious when people don't do any research and their opinons are just regurgitated headlines that serve the media and politicians (it's funny how we are all aware of their agendas and despise both during elections but forget for the other 4 years). Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, whichever side you fall on - you have to say that these days else risk being branded a hippy liberal.

Faced with some hardship it's very obvious where people's true colours lie. Dead child or not, this is a humanitarian crisis on the scale of millions.

I think it's safer i just ignore Tim, unless he has kids he would like to tell to pick up an AK and fight ISIS and Assad.

Sorry but that's just ridiculous. I'm not suggesting children fight I'm suggesting their are grown up adults ie young men who would be perfectly capable of fighting in their own country if that was needed, just my observation. Humanity crises or not it will only be solved if the source of the problem is dealt with not other countries taking in hundreds of thousands of displaced people and if they did then it should only be on a temporary basis.

Tim.

 

[simonlpearce]

The issue here is you cannot really be selective and let in some. You either let in none or all. Who has the right to decide who should and shouldn't be allowed? First come first serve, or the strongest probably mostly male push to the front of the queues leaving women and children in just as bad a state as they would have been before the migration. The source needs to be treated and not the symptom otherwise the problem will only continue to come back time and time again.

 

[jimmybell]

I'm suggesting their are grown up adults ie young men who would be perfectly capable of fighting in their own country if that was needed
...
Tim.

Fighting who?

Do you even know what's going on in Syria?

 

[dans6490]

The issue here is you cannot really be selective and let in some. You either let in none or all. Who has the right to decide who should and shouldn't be allowed? First come first serve, or the strongest probably mostly male push to the front of the queues leaving women and children in just as bad a state as they would have been before the migration. The source needs to be treated and not the symptom otherwise the problem will only continue to come back time and time again.

Well said, most of the Calais ''immigrants'' appear to be groups of Males. Presumably, the weak or infirm have been left behind. As you say, the source of the problem needs neutralizing.

But, hang on, the loony left don't want that either. So we find ourselves in the position where neither one thing nor the other is being done and chaos rules.

 

[TitanTim]

I'm suggesting their are grown up adults ie young men who would be perfectly capable of fighting in their own country if that was needed
...
Tim.

Fighting who?

Do you even know what's going on in Syria?

I assume their own Government, its not the only country in the world where the populas has overthrown their own Government throughout history.

I don't think the answer is multiple countries i.e. Europe opening its gates to take a flood of migration from the east which once it starts and the situation in countries such as Syria deteriorates even further will only get worse.

Perhaps I don't wear rose tinted spectacles but look at these things realistically.

And no I don't study Syria's problems, I'm not that interested to be honest

Tim.

 

[jimmybell]

Someone needs to do something. Someone mentioned the UN, or their lack of intervention.. yep. basically. Especially as this is affecting at least two of the security council members - though that in itself maybe why we're expecting action but none is taken.

It'd be nice to look back in a few years time and say we secured an area of land, made it habitable and provided aid. Not sure where this pipe dream would be though, i can't see the greeks giving up more of their islands.