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MC on Pistonheads
- Thread starter DevonPaul
- Start date
(1) ice won't be banned as you say, it'll be cleverly disincentivised to the point it disappears to all but those who can afford it in a similar way to those wealthy enough to afford horses - all the space effort specialists and bills for the few miles a year knocking about at 5mph, disrupting other road users. That's half the tragedy of it though, imo. Not to mention the utterly ridiculous case for evs as a replacement. I mean seriously the scale of the raw material mining, mineral processing and civil work to install sufficient grid infrastructure to manage a proper charging network is in itself an insanely emissive and destructive process. Evs are (should be seen) at very best a transitional solution.
(2) sadly not though, just look at the number of irritating wankers with a45 amgs dsg-farting their way round town. Or the adulation with which the 'point and squirt' r35 gtr is greeted at every single car show these days. Honestly youtube is almost solely propped up by ad revenue from spotty teenager videos of gtrs leaving car meets. No one gives a s**t how a car is driven anymore, they only care about the repeatable experience of launch control 0-60s and pub figures. Why else would the new m3/4 be awd, nearly 2 tonnes and have a slushtronic auto? It's not a fucking drivers car anymore, it's a youtube influencers wet dream. So it's sadly not so difficult to see a future in which the kids of today do aspire to a dull white good ev.
(3) see above two, maybe our generation might aspire to that but most won't bother, and couple that with the increasing expense of specialist maintenance (as the majority of garages die off due to lack of demand) it'll be a difficult sell for all but the most well heeled enthusiast...
(4) agree completely. I've no doubt I'm in the minority but my daily is an e92 320d touring - it's got ac and a decent oe sound system. Other than that it's got an engine a gearbox and to be fair it's actually a decent steer - I literally don't need anything more. Swallows all the family clobber and the dog in the boot just fine, does upwards of 50mpg, and allows me a stupid car in the garage for sunny weekends and trackdays. Cost me 5k, cheap as chips to tax and insure, and if it costs a little bit in servicing and fixing bits it's never going to be as expensive as the depreciation (or balloon) on a new car on finance.
I'm sure I'm in the distinct minority in my views however :roll: I shall crawl back under my rock now!
(2) sadly not though, just look at the number of irritating wankers with a45 amgs dsg-farting their way round town. Or the adulation with which the 'point and squirt' r35 gtr is greeted at every single car show these days. Honestly youtube is almost solely propped up by ad revenue from spotty teenager videos of gtrs leaving car meets. No one gives a s**t how a car is driven anymore, they only care about the repeatable experience of launch control 0-60s and pub figures. Why else would the new m3/4 be awd, nearly 2 tonnes and have a slushtronic auto? It's not a fucking drivers car anymore, it's a youtube influencers wet dream. So it's sadly not so difficult to see a future in which the kids of today do aspire to a dull white good ev.
(3) see above two, maybe our generation might aspire to that but most won't bother, and couple that with the increasing expense of specialist maintenance (as the majority of garages die off due to lack of demand) it'll be a difficult sell for all but the most well heeled enthusiast...
(4) agree completely. I've no doubt I'm in the minority but my daily is an e92 320d touring - it's got ac and a decent oe sound system. Other than that it's got an engine a gearbox and to be fair it's actually a decent steer - I literally don't need anything more. Swallows all the family clobber and the dog in the boot just fine, does upwards of 50mpg, and allows me a stupid car in the garage for sunny weekends and trackdays. Cost me 5k, cheap as chips to tax and insure, and if it costs a little bit in servicing and fixing bits it's never going to be as expensive as the depreciation (or balloon) on a new car on finance.
I'm sure I'm in the distinct minority in my views however :roll: I shall crawl back under my rock now!
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I frequently wonder why so many people willingly hand over so much of their hard-earned to drive something that (to me) is vastly less interesting than something built 15-20 years ago and worth 1/10th of the value.
I think it comes down to three factors:
'1. 'Newness' - people are naturally attracted to new things and the 'latest model', assuming that newer must always equal better.
2. Risk mitigation and minimum hassle - there is still a widespread belief that older cars are risky, and something newer with a warranty offers peace of mind and predictability. Notwithstanding the fact that those hefty monthly lease payments would cover a very generous borkage fund for any used car. And most people I know have zero interest in getting the slightest bit hands-on. Why would they, if they're not enthusiasts like us?
3. Perceived safety. When I ask someone why they've chosen their 2-tonne panzer with lane assist, adaptive cruise and which goes 'bong' when someone's in your blind spot, the answer is almost inevitably because 'it's safer on the school run'. We could debate that all day long, but as a motivation I think it's understandable.
I think it comes down to three factors:
'1. 'Newness' - people are naturally attracted to new things and the 'latest model', assuming that newer must always equal better.
2. Risk mitigation and minimum hassle - there is still a widespread belief that older cars are risky, and something newer with a warranty offers peace of mind and predictability. Notwithstanding the fact that those hefty monthly lease payments would cover a very generous borkage fund for any used car. And most people I know have zero interest in getting the slightest bit hands-on. Why would they, if they're not enthusiasts like us?
3. Perceived safety. When I ask someone why they've chosen their 2-tonne panzer with lane assist, adaptive cruise and which goes 'bong' when someone's in your blind spot, the answer is almost inevitably because 'it's safer on the school run'. We could debate that all day long, but as a motivation I think it's understandable.
North West Surrey
I got my MC for a good price assuming prices couldn't get much lower 3 months before Lockdown and thought I might have made a big mistake!
But then prices took off and even though they seem to be dropping now I probably still haven't lost anything - yet. Although I've spent plenty keeping it in fine fettle, insured and taxed!
Prices for mint low-mileage ones may increase one day, but mine will never be one of those. I bought it because I loved it and to use and enjoy it. It's done 91K miles now so in another 9K most people would probably think it's a scrapper. :lol:
But that's fine as it's a keeper.
But then prices took off and even though they seem to be dropping now I probably still haven't lost anything - yet. Although I've spent plenty keeping it in fine fettle, insured and taxed!
Prices for mint low-mileage ones may increase one day, but mine will never be one of those. I bought it because I loved it and to use and enjoy it. It's done 91K miles now so in another 9K most people would probably think it's a scrapper. :lol:
But that's fine as it's a keeper.
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plenty said:
Interesting points and I do agree. I'd also go one step further in that these days people like to derisk their spending profiles, so to have a single monthly payment for a new car with a warranty on finance, with no need to factor in any servicing costs or big bills is a big draw, and as can clearly be seen people will pay a decent chunk of money for that!
For me I've never understood why anyone would pay through the nose for something they are ultimately renting at significant expense, just to derisk the possibility of a major bill which is so remote these days that it's worth self insuring against anyway!
I'm a grumpy old sod but genuinely I've given up with new cars; stuff stopped being interesting to me after the e92 m3 tbh (with the notable exception of the m2). There's so much amazing metal knocking about which needs minimal money to keep going and would be way cheaper to buy and run than a white good on finance.
One thing I would say however; I would consider a bmw i3 as a runabout - I think they're fascinating bits of kit, and with the little petrol engine in the back you're not absolutely screwed when the battery dies.
pvr said:
I thought it was a bit more for the higher spec one - I could be wrong though! My mechanic had one of the top spec ones which he used to lend me when my M was in for work - I'm sure it was over 150miles on a full charge - although that might have been the later version which was ev only?
Simon 3.2M
Senior member
Ultimately, BMW and most other manufacturers ie Mercedes now make boring, generic cars - admittedly they are very fast but they are 10 a penny on the roads, have no real character, have a lot of driver aids to make mediocre young drivers look fast and, probably more pertinent to us on the forum, you can't actually do a great deal to them without a laptop and some very specialized tools. I think the M2 is the only current M car that has some character, that said, I probably see them on a daily basis. It is only when you get into the really big money that there are some very interesting cars however, for the majority of us spending 70K+ on a car isn't an option.
The joy for me with the Z4 is the ability to work on them as a hobby mechanic, with a little consideration and research I don't think even the S54 is too scary to work on, whilst still a decent amount of cash - trashing an S54 would cost circa 5 to 8k to replace or rebuild. If I am not mistaken, the current M engines are around 20k (I stand to be corrected) that is a whole Z4M! I wouldn't touch an M3/4 etc, I'd struggle to know where to start!
I like the fact that my car turns heads, not because people look and think it's fast, but more because they look and think what the heck is it! The rarity of them is quite nice as is the size in comparison to the modern Ms - they look tiny. As previously mentioned by Mr Tidy, these cars are unlikely to drop much more in value if at all. The future classic status is also another none event, these cars are a long way from that and again, it's only the low mileage OEM examples that will command the top money. It is conceivable that in the future they may follow the E46 M3 however, there are a lot less Z4Ms in the first instance. There are a very niche car with a different type of owner, no revving of engines as was once witnessed at Ultimate BMW last year.
I'm with Fred and Ed in that I'm a grumpy old sod too so I'm in the 5k for a 3 series bracket too as it does all that I need it to do. I'm also not precious over mine any more - it is there to be driven and enjoyed so that's what I'm doing, I will service her as she needs it, drive her sensibly warming up fully, as you should with any car and not stressing over every detail.
The joy for me with the Z4 is the ability to work on them as a hobby mechanic, with a little consideration and research I don't think even the S54 is too scary to work on, whilst still a decent amount of cash - trashing an S54 would cost circa 5 to 8k to replace or rebuild. If I am not mistaken, the current M engines are around 20k (I stand to be corrected) that is a whole Z4M! I wouldn't touch an M3/4 etc, I'd struggle to know where to start!
I like the fact that my car turns heads, not because people look and think it's fast, but more because they look and think what the heck is it! The rarity of them is quite nice as is the size in comparison to the modern Ms - they look tiny. As previously mentioned by Mr Tidy, these cars are unlikely to drop much more in value if at all. The future classic status is also another none event, these cars are a long way from that and again, it's only the low mileage OEM examples that will command the top money. It is conceivable that in the future they may follow the E46 M3 however, there are a lot less Z4Ms in the first instance. There are a very niche car with a different type of owner, no revving of engines as was once witnessed at Ultimate BMW last year.
I'm with Fred and Ed in that I'm a grumpy old sod too so I'm in the 5k for a 3 series bracket too as it does all that I need it to do. I'm also not precious over mine any more - it is there to be driven and enjoyed so that's what I'm doing, I will service her as she needs it, drive her sensibly warming up fully, as you should with any car and not stressing over every detail.
If you bought the Z4M as an investment, then you made a poor choice. Far too niche and not widely admired at launch. I can’t see them ever going up at the rate that offsets the running costs etc.
There’s also the issue of what happens to fuel going forward. Expensive, coveted cars will be owned by those with the means to run them regardless of the cost. Left field, affordable fun cars could be left in limbo where they’re too expensive for the average man to run and not special enough for those with the money to bother with.
Who knows? I might be wrong about all of that, but if I had a crystal ball then I’d have bought the 964 or Clio V6 I considered when I got the Z4!
There’s also the issue of what happens to fuel going forward. Expensive, coveted cars will be owned by those with the means to run them regardless of the cost. Left field, affordable fun cars could be left in limbo where they’re too expensive for the average man to run and not special enough for those with the money to bother with.
Who knows? I might be wrong about all of that, but if I had a crystal ball then I’d have bought the 964 or Clio V6 I considered when I got the Z4!
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I have to disagree on "all" extras being useless. What I have an issue with is everything being a screen. I like buttons and don't want to flip through menus to find how to turn the ac on.
My 17 plate JCWs infotainment is basically a reskinned idrive and the sat nav and phone integration is pretty poor. It was one of the earliest BMW products to have wireless CarPlay but it wasn't activated. So I paid one of these asian firms £30 and it unlocked it and its completely transformed the usability of the car. The wife loves it and as you know that generally is the most important box to tick.
I find that the tactile elements or things you interact with are the most important thing in modern motoring as no car is built to be good to drive they all feel very much the same. Like the new Z4 feeling like a 3 series even tho the inception of the platform was to be a focused 2 seater. Guess what people don't want a driver focused car because they are uncomfortable and tiring to drive.
CarPlay is one of those that just integrates so well that you can't beat it and non of these manufacturer units come close.
Also on the 3.5mm headphone jack point... you will struggle to find a phone on the market with a headphone jack and ive not had one since 2016 which is nearly 10 years ago. With modern amenities like music streaming etc it boggles the mind why anyone would want to manually manage music. I spent hours and hours back in the day and time I will never get back. Being able to pick what you want and go is so easy and not worrying about syncing and being annoyed that your iPod doesnt have an album you have.
Also you have your choice of navigation without pre built maps that are instantly out of date.
The rest of the rubbish like lane assist they can keep but a good head unit integration and a good stereo is key for me and I wouldn't buy another car without CarPlay integration.
My 17 plate JCWs infotainment is basically a reskinned idrive and the sat nav and phone integration is pretty poor. It was one of the earliest BMW products to have wireless CarPlay but it wasn't activated. So I paid one of these asian firms £30 and it unlocked it and its completely transformed the usability of the car. The wife loves it and as you know that generally is the most important box to tick.
I find that the tactile elements or things you interact with are the most important thing in modern motoring as no car is built to be good to drive they all feel very much the same. Like the new Z4 feeling like a 3 series even tho the inception of the platform was to be a focused 2 seater. Guess what people don't want a driver focused car because they are uncomfortable and tiring to drive.
CarPlay is one of those that just integrates so well that you can't beat it and non of these manufacturer units come close.
Also on the 3.5mm headphone jack point... you will struggle to find a phone on the market with a headphone jack and ive not had one since 2016 which is nearly 10 years ago. With modern amenities like music streaming etc it boggles the mind why anyone would want to manually manage music. I spent hours and hours back in the day and time I will never get back. Being able to pick what you want and go is so easy and not worrying about syncing and being annoyed that your iPod doesnt have an album you have.
Also you have your choice of navigation without pre built maps that are instantly out of date.
The rest of the rubbish like lane assist they can keep but a good head unit integration and a good stereo is key for me and I wouldn't buy another car without CarPlay integration.
I don't want or need screens in a car. My phone mounted to the windscreen with an adapter to fit a 3.5 mm plug does everything I need. I get why some folks like the neater integration without wires, but that's so far down my list as to be basically irrelevant. And I can't stand the modern trend of massive tablet-style screens in interiors, especially when they are required to control basic functions.
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