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mr wilks said:R60BBA said:Angelus666 said:Bearing shells is utter bollocks on Z4M....they totally changed the spec of this part of the engine in later S54 and they are NOT needed to be changed at 80k miles. Speak to any decent M engineer and they’ll tell you this. Don’t believe the hype and B/S that get put about on here. In fact the replacement part is of lower quality than the OEM part
That’s not exactly true mate.
Its a highly divisive subject but i'm in the Angelus camp here & ive had 8 yrs study & owned 4 quite leggy ( 73k - 90k) S54 ZMR , yes there are fails documented online & on this forum but the majority can be traced back to hard use , poor service record , misuse from cold & even one with incorrect grade oil from a Bmw servicethe numbers of these breaching 80k 90k & 100k that haven't failed tell the story .
Buy a decent example then treat it well in every apect & i don't see the need to throw funds at replacing possible failing parts , my ex Bmw master tech indy also agrees
No offence Andy but you don’t exactly keep hold of your cars for long and so I see the sense in why you haven’t bothered to do one of these services.
Without getting into it too much, I agree that the issue is slightly overhyped online. However the fact still remains that it is an issue, and if you are looking at long term ownership, you should factor in the cost of replacing them. Just ensure they are done by a qualified M technician, which is ever so more important on the Z4Ms which use the updated M10 stretch bolts which require a labour intensive torquing procedure.
R60BBA said:mr wilks said:R60BBA said:
Its a highly divisive subject but i'm in the Angelus camp here & ive had 8 yrs study & owned 4 quite leggy ( 73k - 90k) S54 ZMR , yes there are fails documented online & on this forum but the majority can be traced back to hard use , poor service record , misuse from cold & even one with incorrect grade oil from a Bmw service
Buy a decent example then treat it well in every apect & i don't see the need to throw funds at replacing possible failing parts , my ex Bmw master tech indy also agrees
No offence Andy but you don’t exactly keep hold of your cars for long and so I see the sense in why you haven’t bothered to do one of these services.
Without getting into it too much, I agree that the issue is slightly overhyped online. However the fact still remains that it is an issue, and if you are looking at long term ownership, you should factor in the cost of replacing them. Just ensure they are done by a qualified M technician, which is ever so more important on the Z4Ms which use the updated M10 stretch bolts which require a labour intensive torquing procedure.
I understand your standpoint 100%, preventitive maintenance can only be good but I wasn't duly concerned & whilst your logic on me not keeping longterm might have sway just to highlight the first ZM I bough on 75k & sold 9 months later on 83k.
The second i bought on 78k & sold on 83k the 3rd I bought on 68k & sold 73k.
I wasn't afraid to cover mileage in them & in those 3 engines I most likely covered more miles than most S54 owners would over 3-4-5 yrs.
R60BBA said:mr wilks said:R60BBA said:
Its a highly divisive subject but i'm in the Angelus camp here & ive had 8 yrs study & owned 4 quite leggy ( 73k - 90k) S54 ZMR , yes there are fails documented online & on this forum but the majority can be traced back to hard use , poor service record , misuse from cold & even one with incorrect grade oil from a Bmw service
Buy a decent example then treat it well in every apect & i don't see the need to throw funds at replacing possible failing parts , my ex Bmw master tech indy also agrees
No offence Andy but you don’t exactly keep hold of your cars for long and so I see the sense in why you haven’t bothered to do one of these services.
Without getting into it too much, I agree that the issue is slightly overhyped online. However the fact still remains that it is an issue, and if you are looking at long term ownership, you should factor in the cost of replacing them. Just ensure they are done by a qualified M technician, which is ever so more important on the Z4Ms which use the updated M10 stretch bolts which require a labour intensive torquing procedure.
That’s the point, it isn’t a fact, it’s a fact on the earlier e46 cars, but it was rectified on the later versions. The Z4M simply isn’t effected by this so having this done doesn’t really add any value over a car without it. The only process that would justify it would be that you’ve had your oil tested and it’s showing high levels....which would only apply if you’ve driven it very hard on track or haven’t let it warm up properly through its life.
Angelus666 said:R60BBA said:mr wilks said:Its a highly divisive subject but i'm in the Angelus camp here & ive had 8 yrs study & owned 4 quite leggy ( 73k - 90k) S54 ZMR , yes there are fails documented online & on this forum but the majority can be traced back to hard use , poor service record , misuse from cold & even one with incorrect grade oil from a Bmw service
Buy a decent example then treat it well in every apect & i don't see the need to throw funds at replacing possible failing parts , my ex Bmw master tech indy also agrees
No offence Andy but you don’t exactly keep hold of your cars for long and so I see the sense in why you haven’t bothered to do one of these services.
Without getting into it too much, I agree that the issue is slightly overhyped online. However the fact still remains that it is an issue, and if you are looking at long term ownership, you should factor in the cost of replacing them. Just ensure they are done by a qualified M technician, which is ever so more important on the Z4Ms which use the updated M10 stretch bolts which require a labour intensive torquing procedure.
That’s the point, it isn’t a fact, it’s a fact on the earlier e46 cars, but it was rectified on the later versions. The Z4M simply isn’t effected by this so having this done doesn’t really add any value over a car without it. The only process that would justify it would be that you’ve had your oil tested and it’s showing high levels....which would only apply if you’ve driven it very hard on track or haven’t let it warm up properly through its life.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest it is still a problem on the Z4's to a degree. Various threads have shown pretty bad looking bearings on Z4's just as they do on M3's, including my own which weren't great, no track work and always warmed up in my ownership though can't speak for previous owners, unless you have owned from new (Am on 93k miles tho). I think you need to do some more research on the subject with all respect as the facts are out there.
Any chance your selling your car soon and not had them done? :lol:
I’m sorry but that’s incorrect and I am genuinely surprised by the misinformation you are sharing.Angelus666 said:R60BBA said:mr wilks said:Its a highly divisive subject but i'm in the Angelus camp here & ive had 8 yrs study & owned 4 quite leggy ( 73k - 90k) S54 ZMR , yes there are fails documented online & on this forum but the majority can be traced back to hard use , poor service record , misuse from cold & even one with incorrect grade oil from a Bmw service
Buy a decent example then treat it well in every apect & i don't see the need to throw funds at replacing possible failing parts , my ex Bmw master tech indy also agrees
No offence Andy but you don’t exactly keep hold of your cars for long and so I see the sense in why you haven’t bothered to do one of these services.
Without getting into it too much, I agree that the issue is slightly overhyped online. However the fact still remains that it is an issue, and if you are looking at long term ownership, you should factor in the cost of replacing them. Just ensure they are done by a qualified M technician, which is ever so more important on the Z4Ms which use the updated M10 stretch bolts which require a labour intensive torquing procedure.
That’s the point, it isn’t a fact, it’s a fact on the earlier e46 cars, but it was rectified on the later versions. The Z4M simply isn’t effected by this so having this done doesn’t really add any value over a car without it. The only process that would justify it would be that you’ve had your oil tested and it’s showing high levels....which would only apply if you’ve driven it very hard on track or haven’t let it warm up properly through its life.
1. All S54 applications (E46 M3, Z3M, Z4M & Wiesmann) have the potential to suffer bottom end failure.
2. Pre facelift E46 M3’s underwent a recall, however the failure on these cars was due to BMW’s recommendation of 5w30 oil, which was then replaced with 10w60 in 2001. Nevertheless both pre 2003 and post 2003 S54s are failing which illustrates that the issue is not solely specific to pre facelift E46 M3’s.
3. Failure is mainly caused by a) not letting the car warm up properly and b) not changing the oil regularly enough.
4. When buying a car second hand (which applies to most of us on here) only the latter can be checked, there is no way to tell whether previous owners let the car warm up properly before revving to 7,900 rpm.
5. Oil analysis tests can be used as indicators but should not be taken as concrete evidence on engine health.
6. Driving the car hard on track is not an issue if the engine has been warmed up properly (these are M designed engines after all).
7. In terms of value, if a car advertised for sale has done more than 60,000 miles and has not had the service done I would recommend the potential buyer in negotiating a discount on the asking price due to this service. However there is no comeback on cars which have had the service done by reputable M specialists. In other words most of the money spent on undertaking the service can be held in the value of the car if the seller sticks to his guns. Although I accept this can vary per person.
If you don’t want to get yours done that’s fine and totally up to you, however please refrain from spreading misinformation or making ill founded statements.
I couldn’t have put it better myself.R60BBA said:
There are several well informed members on this forum who have engineering backgrounds who have advocated changing the bearing shells.
Driving a few thousand miles in cars of moderate mileage without encountering an issue is no more proof that the that the problem does not exist than a lifelong smoker dying of old age is proof that smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer
R60BBA said:
You may well have some substance in many of your points Bob but you let yourself down with no6 mate :wink: of the 7-8 engine fails i can recall documented on forum the past 7 years at least 4 happened during or shortly after tracking
( sixspeed , mmmfive & more recently Ed doe immediately spring to mind ) another i can't remember user name wrote that he ended his track session early due to overheat & then said he would get the engine noise looked at when it went for oil service which was due :roll: ( crazy even thinking of tracking on old oil imo )
There was the guy who caned it to the limiter from cold ( dannytheduck ? ) & mashed his S54
these engines simply do not get on with excessive heat cycles & low/poor oil & both those things happen from cold & during hard track thrashings .I suspect over 95% of forum ZM owners will cover less than 2k per yr , decent service records , warmed up procedure followed then out cruising the country lanes rarely seeing the rev counter go over 5k-6k , for these owners the chances of engine failure from top or bottom is rare , the forum itself bears that out otherwise we would see thread after thread reporting major issues .
If i was looking to buy again id be more concerned buying one that hadn't seen track time over one with fresh bottom bearings done but that's just my viewpoint & others may well disagree :wink:
Andy, if S54s couldn’t hack track usage you wouldn’t see so many at the Nurburgring. 
Don’t get me wrong, track usage increases component wear which is why some of the more keen track guys change their shells every 25,000 miles and race teams change them at the end of every season. But Angelus’ comment about this ‘only applying to cars which have been on track’ is false.
Have to admit, can’t believe DannytheDuck thrashed his car from cold though :?
Don’t get me wrong, track usage increases component wear which is why some of the more keen track guys change their shells every 25,000 miles and race teams change them at the end of every season. But Angelus’ comment about this ‘only applying to cars which have been on track’ is false.
Have to admit, can’t believe DannytheDuck thrashed his car from cold though :?
Track use is hard on cars, there’s no denying that, but it wouldn’t necessarily put me off a well cared for and highly maintained car.
Don’t forget that the 10w60 needs a good bit of heat in it to work properly. There was a comparison table floating about some years ago comparing the various viscosities and their relative protection at certain temperatures. I forget the exact terminology and results but the gist of it was that you’re better off having the 10w60 around 100deg than at 85 (cold weather cruising for example)
In other words, cruising along with the oil at 85deg then occasionally flooring it is potentially more damaging than maintaining a faster pace but with the oil around 100deg. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it your honour!
Don’t forget that the 10w60 needs a good bit of heat in it to work properly. There was a comparison table floating about some years ago comparing the various viscosities and their relative protection at certain temperatures. I forget the exact terminology and results but the gist of it was that you’re better off having the 10w60 around 100deg than at 85 (cold weather cruising for example)
In other words, cruising along with the oil at 85deg then occasionally flooring it is potentially more damaging than maintaining a faster pace but with the oil around 100deg. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it your honour!
R60BBA said:Andy, if S54s couldn’t hack track usage you wouldn’t see so many at the Nurburgring.
Don’t get me wrong, track usage increases component wear which is why some of the more keen track guys change their shells every 25,000 miles and race teams change them at the end of every season. But Angelus’ comment about this ‘only applying to cars which have been on track’ is false.
Have to admit, can’t believe DannytheDuck thrashed his car from cold though :?
Not quite what I said, but in case my point was missed. I did book my car in last year for these (when I was doing an Ins II), but the guys who run PMW, a very highly respected M specialist said to me that it was simply not worth changing these on a daily driven car with no adverse elements showing in an oil report. I then checked this with Thorney, who I used to take my CSL to and they said the same thing. Both did say if you were tracking the S54 you might want to change these and a few other components fairly regularly as well. The parts on our S54 are not the same for those on earlier cars, so they really don't need changing on a regular basis like those on the S85 or S65.
I'm certainly no M engineer, so happy to be corrected on this, but a view that all ZM's need to have this done at 60k miles seems wrong information in my mind.
Based on the rate of bearing surface wear it’s worth just thinking of these as consumables with a very high cost of inspection and a put-the-new-kitchen-on-hold cost of failure.
We know that both cold start conditions and high (but normal) operating loads can cause accelerated wear, but without knowing the whole history of a car it’s difficult to determine what the level of risk is and where it’s come from. The fact that the engines tend to pop during track days doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s where the damage was done.
So effectively, you’re insuring your engine by getting them replaced proactively, and the usual mindset re. insurance, drivetrain warranties or putting money aside should apply. It also provides an opportunity to start a record of oil samples, which does move the ball back into your court a bit re. the risk, but again this won’t be for everyone.
I don’t think it’s possible to be “right” or “wrong” on this unless you’re deliberately negligent. Good discussion, as always, though fellas.
We know that both cold start conditions and high (but normal) operating loads can cause accelerated wear, but without knowing the whole history of a car it’s difficult to determine what the level of risk is and where it’s come from. The fact that the engines tend to pop during track days doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s where the damage was done.
So effectively, you’re insuring your engine by getting them replaced proactively, and the usual mindset re. insurance, drivetrain warranties or putting money aside should apply. It also provides an opportunity to start a record of oil samples, which does move the ball back into your court a bit re. the risk, but again this won’t be for everyone.
I don’t think it’s possible to be “right” or “wrong” on this unless you’re deliberately negligent. Good discussion, as always, though fellas.
I sold my 07 Z4M with 101,740 miles last week. It is someone on here and I got hit hard on the price, but I decided it was best to just let the car go. I let him knock the price down to a pretty low price £7500 in the end, as it's not had rod bearings done and there was the potential headache of the roof being buggered. Sadly there was lots of little things I was unaware about not quite right with the car and due to my back, I can't easily do much on my car. With my last bill being £3400, I knew there was a need to put in about as much again to get it right, but it needed a possible respray (I doubt it, as my old man is a retired detailer who felt with time, the paint could be brought back).
That said, there was a lot of interest and I was offered £8200 in P/X with 2 different garages, regardless of condition, but I was putting it against a car worth £16,000+ .
I did have a good amount of interest and I don't think rod end bearings are a big cause of concern on a roadster, but with so many people treating the Z4M's S54 like a E46's, I was getting asked all the time. I knew I would get knocked down, but I had to weigh up what my car was up against and the fact I wanted to start working on getting Bertie (my puppy) use to being driven by me, without anyone holding him.
Ironically, I've managed to pick up a very well engineered (and obscenely large amount of money spent) E82 135i with 483bhp and 506lbt , as well as other bits done that I wanted to do. It was cheaper than the others I looked at and only has 75,000 on the clock. I went over to this because I am putting my Labrador puppy in the back, as the Z4M seemed too for him to jump in my lap. Thing is, he frigging refuses to get in the car and puts his paws either side of the door when I try to lift him in . So my little s**t of a dogs cost me about £6000 in getting a car to take him places, yet he won't go in it lol!
I plan on making a 1M clone, as it's a cheaper route to use genuine 1M parts on a 135i (which is what a 1M is tbh). I hope I am able to get some major things done in the next 12 months.
I will miss my E85 Z4M, but I was never happy being in a roadster and if I had an E86, I think I might have held on to it and just use another car for Bertie.
That said, there was a lot of interest and I was offered £8200 in P/X with 2 different garages, regardless of condition, but I was putting it against a car worth £16,000+ .
I did have a good amount of interest and I don't think rod end bearings are a big cause of concern on a roadster, but with so many people treating the Z4M's S54 like a E46's, I was getting asked all the time. I knew I would get knocked down, but I had to weigh up what my car was up against and the fact I wanted to start working on getting Bertie (my puppy) use to being driven by me, without anyone holding him.
Ironically, I've managed to pick up a very well engineered (and obscenely large amount of money spent) E82 135i with 483bhp and 506lbt , as well as other bits done that I wanted to do. It was cheaper than the others I looked at and only has 75,000 on the clock. I went over to this because I am putting my Labrador puppy in the back, as the Z4M seemed too for him to jump in my lap. Thing is, he frigging refuses to get in the car and puts his paws either side of the door when I try to lift him in
. So my little s**t of a dogs cost me about £6000 in getting a car to take him places, yet he won't go in it lol!I plan on making a 1M clone, as it's a cheaper route to use genuine 1M parts on a 135i (which is what a 1M is tbh). I hope I am able to get some major things done in the next 12 months.
I will miss my E85 Z4M, but I was never happy being in a roadster and if I had an E86, I think I might have held on to it and just use another car for Bertie.