Interesting 'shims' letter in BMW Car Club magazine
- Thread starter mmm-five
- Start date
Liverpool
The thing is though, has this randomness of service been happening since the e30 days? If it has, then the dealer know they can get away with it.
Anyone want to estimate how much money they'll (BMW & indies) have taken for 2 hours of labour on say 10% (assuming 90% were genuinely done) of all M cars in the 27 years since the e30 M3 (1983)?
I've even known dealers/indies to claim that they don't need it overnight as they put the car in front of a cold air blower (air con I guess) first thing in the morning and it's cooled down enough in 2-3 hours.
I can't prove anything, but it makes you wonder why we're all so concerned about full BMW service history when they can be as patchy as any other mechanic/technician.
I wouldn't mind if they said "Look mate, the tappets don't sound noisy so how about we knock off two hours labour and call it quits", but if they're not doing what's required - by either doing it wrong, or by not doing it at all - then it's tantamount to fraud (obtaining money by deception) or theft (charging for something they haven't done).
I expect they'll all be asking for them in the night before now, but I bet there'll still be some not bothering to do the shims anyway, or they'll say that they were checked but didn't need adjustment. I suppose one solution would be to demand the marked up measurement sheet to see how far over/under spec your shims are.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me :bag:
Anyone want to estimate how much money they'll (BMW & indies) have taken for 2 hours of labour on say 10% (assuming 90% were genuinely done) of all M cars in the 27 years since the e30 M3 (1983)?
I've even known dealers/indies to claim that they don't need it overnight as they put the car in front of a cold air blower (air con I guess) first thing in the morning and it's cooled down enough in 2-3 hours.
I can't prove anything, but it makes you wonder why we're all so concerned about full BMW service history when they can be as patchy as any other mechanic/technician.
I wouldn't mind if they said "Look mate, the tappets don't sound noisy so how about we knock off two hours labour and call it quits", but if they're not doing what's required - by either doing it wrong, or by not doing it at all - then it's tantamount to fraud (obtaining money by deception) or theft (charging for something they haven't done).
I expect they'll all be asking for them in the night before now, but I bet there'll still be some not bothering to do the shims anyway, or they'll say that they were checked but didn't need adjustment. I suppose one solution would be to demand the marked up measurement sheet to see how far over/under spec your shims are.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me :bag:
I've been thinking about this a lot recently, not sure why.. but mine isn't and has never been noisy, but they were so ignorant about asking for the VANOS filter change I doubt the shims were done either.
I'm going to request the shim reports by reply of letter and see what happens.
Maybe as the glut of low mileage Z4Ms pass through the Inspections over the next 18 months if enough are questioned it will reduce the chances of further laziness :thumbsdown:
I'm going to request the shim reports by reply of letter and see what happens.
Maybe as the glut of low mileage Z4Ms pass through the Inspections over the next 18 months if enough are questioned it will reduce the chances of further laziness :thumbsdown:
Z4coupebeaver
Member
A full BMW service history is not worth the paper it is written on as it gives no real assurance. it adds value to the car because the general car buyer is ignorant of the fact that these cars are not rocket ships and are quite simple to maintain even on a DIY level.
What would you rather own - a car from someone who explains to you how he lets the car warm up, checks the oil regularly, changes the oil even before the services are due, uses the correct tyres etc etc or one from someone who never opens the bonnet, he doesn't know where the dipstick is when you want to check the oil but shows you a wad of BMW service bills.
I'd rather own the former but when it comes to sell I'd rather have the latter.
Give it a few years when our cars are being used for banger racing it probably won't matter but whilst they are still quite new - I guess the BMW SH is worthwhile.
What would you rather own - a car from someone who explains to you how he lets the car warm up, checks the oil regularly, changes the oil even before the services are due, uses the correct tyres etc etc or one from someone who never opens the bonnet, he doesn't know where the dipstick is when you want to check the oil but shows you a wad of BMW service bills.
I'd rather own the former but when it comes to sell I'd rather have the latter.
Give it a few years when our cars are being used for banger racing it probably won't matter but whilst they are still quite new - I guess the BMW SH is worthwhile.
i had mine in for inspection 2 recently and asked beforehand on the phone if the clearances were done and measurements taken to be told YES by the maintenance manager.When i went to pick car up after so called work carried out i asked service reception manager if there was any proof of this, he showed me the invoice and a tick on the maintenance sheet as proof ,so i enquired as to the whereabouts of the seperate measurement sheet and he looked at me like i was asking for the crown jewels,anyway he disappeared and the maint manager appeared 5 mins later with a gasket and some grommets in his hand,which could have come off anything obviously. Was then told that the clearances were measured using feeler gauges and so werent written down and so basically i`d have to believe him. As it was a friday at 5ish i thought i`m not gonna get anything more out of this c*nt so left. The point is this is expensive so they should have real proof of this work being carried out . TOSSERS :thumbsdown:
dannymc said:
I think thats a bit harsh mate, you asked him if it was done and he said Yes, you asked for some proof and he obliged but you still didn`t believe him. I`d have the arse by now too, if I was him.
Easiest way is to mark the bolts and cover with a pencil line and see if they still match up, checking clearances isn`t a big job it takes less than 10 mins to strip the top down to get to them. My last M3 never needed re-shimming with nearly 60K very hard miles on it and 2 yrs of being supercharged.
I just had my inspection 1 recently and Coopers Croydon wanted the car for two days, witout my promtping, which was re-assuring. They explained something about the car needing to be at different temperatures which went over my head at the time but in light of this seems like it was a good sign of a dealer knowing what they're talking about.
If you hear a car with all 24 shims out of sync and then one with clearances done, the smoothness is incredible.
If you really want to ensure you can verify that this has been performed, other than by using your ears, mark the rocker cover gasket with distinguishing feature.
if that mark is still there its unlikely they would have done anything.....
If you really want to ensure you can verify that this has been performed, other than by using your ears, mark the rocker cover gasket with distinguishing feature.
if that mark is still there its unlikely they would have done anything.....
I get the logic behind this, but the day before is excessive.
I know they are set cold for warm operating tolerances, but how cold is cold?
"Cold" in summer with a car stored inside, or in a hot climate, might be 25degC, in winter 0degC, and that difference will be enough to cause problems, IF simply letting it cool down through the day (get car at 9am, do work at 3pm) isn't enough!
I see the logic of not doing it on a 90degC engine, but 35degC > 0degC is still a bit of variance (Middle East temps vs northern Canada for example), and an engine will get down to sub 30degC fairly quickly in winter here at least (after sitting and watching mine go down on the data logger (oil temp)) enough at least to see it sub 30degC after 5hrs!
Hmmmm
Dave
I know they are set cold for warm operating tolerances, but how cold is cold?
"Cold" in summer with a car stored inside, or in a hot climate, might be 25degC, in winter 0degC, and that difference will be enough to cause problems, IF simply letting it cool down through the day (get car at 9am, do work at 3pm) isn't enough!
I see the logic of not doing it on a 90degC engine, but 35degC > 0degC is still a bit of variance (Middle East temps vs northern Canada for example), and an engine will get down to sub 30degC fairly quickly in winter here at least (after sitting and watching mine go down on the data logger (oil temp)) enough at least to see it sub 30degC after 5hrs!
Hmmmm
Dave
It's so that the engine & the shims (in the car & in the garage) are at the same temperature so that the technician knows that a 3mm shim in the car is the same as a 3mm in the garage - otherwise when he measures (sizes for illustration only) a hot shim at 3mm and puts in a 2.9mm cold one because the clearance it too tight, then it might be that the 2.9mm goes up to 3.1mm when it's hot, thus making it tighter than the one taken out.
You can measure the clearances hot, but the gap might be bigger than when it's cold, thus you end up putting a cold shim in to fill the gap which then heats up and expands and make the clearance too small.
The only way to ensure that you're measuring to the same standard is to use the same reference point for both the shims in the engine and the shims sitting at ambient temp in the garage.
Don't forget, that the old unit for a meter was based on a pice of metal at a specific temperature - it's now measured by lasers or something instead.
It's the same with 'boiling point' - it's not 100ºC everywhere and can be as low as 50ºC at high altitude.
You can measure the clearances hot, but the gap might be bigger than when it's cold, thus you end up putting a cold shim in to fill the gap which then heats up and expands and make the clearance too small.
The only way to ensure that you're measuring to the same standard is to use the same reference point for both the shims in the engine and the shims sitting at ambient temp in the garage.
Don't forget, that the old unit for a meter was based on a pice of metal at a specific temperature - it's now measured by lasers or something instead.
It's the same with 'boiling point' - it's not 100ºC everywhere and can be as low as 50ºC at high altitude.