Impact on our youngsters?

[Flyingfifer]

[post]1270612[/post] Also, if staying IN the UK means that we have to open the doors to Turkey, then that is a disaster to happen as well.

Unfortunately it's a very complex issue which requires too much information for your typical Joe Public to digest. I'm not even sure there should have been a public referendum held in this manner. What government run website shows clear pro/conns of Europe in an easy to read unbiased way? Seems easy for me to file tax returns - but they can't manage something like this? I've searched - I can't find it. There should be public debates on national television during prime time - instead you get Eastenders. David Cameron's rush to appease the voters will back fire without the proper attempt at education - unfortunately the very people who need to educate us aren't trusted, another issue entirely ...

Your archetypal Joe Public wants to Sun/Daily Mail style headline questions with multiple choice tickboxes. "Why should we stay in Europe: Jobs, Why should we leave: Muslims.". It's pretty depressing how ignorant many people have become, especially in such complex matters - a few bombs go off, a few media headlines about how "immigrants ruin everything", and it's easy to shift a large % of the population. European issues are being used as a scapegoat, these issues are nothing to do with Europe, yet somehow it has all been bundled all together. Are we saying No to Europe because we think our membership into the EU attracts this unwanted attention? Because Belgium was bombed we'll be safe if we say no? Just what the billionaires of the world want; they are the ones who own the media you read after all. There's much more unbiased information at our finger tips than ever before - but who's reading it?

"Leave Europe, stick our fingers up to Brussels, that'll show 'em. Those Muslims, we don't want any of that here - leave Europe."
Every article which tries to explain positives of staying in Europe must be pure scare mongering after all? Good old English values.

People need to wake up and realise we're not a super power, we're not even relevant in the World theatre - we'll become another Iceland. Scotland will want to be in the EU, so will Ireland. Our currency will de-value (which it has already significantly - costing my small business a fortune already). How many of you here have been directly affected? I bet those with the strongest opinions have the least to worry about either which way! Our IT industry and engineering abroad will suffer. It will have a negative impact - that is a fact. How many here have been through the Visa process for recruitment or living abroad? You tell me that queuing up with people from third world countries in order to set-up a business abroad is a positive step. I've set-up companies in countries not in the EU and exported to the UK - it was a nightmare. Cross fertilisation of talent, importing/exporting - it's all problematic. Sure, it can be done - but given the choice between working with Germany and the UK, other EU countries will chose Germany every time, purely due to paperwork. I'm on the ground in Europe and I see how things work.

But it's OK, we can say no to immigrants and stick our fingers up to Brussels.

Most naysayers I speak to can't list 10 positive things about Europe - so much for a balanced argument. You can't say "no" to Europe because of problems of immigration, all of Europe is suffering at the moment - it's a world disaster what's happening in Syria. Blocking Europe will not change that - the UK would accept a certain amount regardless. This is a decision from which there is no turning back - look 20-30 years into the future, look past the Sun headlines and look at the bigger picture. /rantover - *takes me flame proof coat and hides in a big box which says - Open July 2016*

:thumbsdown:

Best post in this thread.

The EU issue will be a sticky one, it is likely that Scotland will want to stay and if we are pulled out there will be a huge push for another Indyref, there was only 6% in it before and given the shenanigans since its entirely likely Scotland would leave.

This is a problem that has huge scope, some things that the EU is responsible for help us all a lot, workers rights for example. Other things help only areas of the U.K for example the regeneration and farming funding along with the green energy funding, middle England doesnt benefit per se and because of that the EU can look like a money pit.

The free movement of people is a good idea for the likes of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and even the north of England where we are short of various skills and labour but it isn't good for London and the lower end of the country where they are arguably saturated with migrants.

One thing is for sure, dont rely on any newspaper, news network, government, mate, family member or neighbour to inform you. Question every statement, prove every point and check every statistic, only then will you have the information that you need to make the best decision.

Personally I will vote to stay, I am an internationalist, I believe in cooperation across nations but the EU isnt perfect, far from it.

 

[exdos]

Here are some figures:

The annual net cost to the UK of being in the EU is £8.5bn: http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum

The EU accounts for less than 45% of UK exports for goods and services: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...g-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

The balance of trade between the UK and the EU for the January 2016 figures -£8.1bn from around 45% of our export trade whereas from the remaining 55% of our world trade the deficit is only -£2.2bn. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/january2016

Clearly the figures show that it costs us dearly, on trade figures alone, just to be in the EU. The rest of the EU will suffer from the loss of the UK's EU membership "fee" should we leave the EU. If the EU then imposes trade barriers to the rest of the EU trading with the UK outside the EU, then the loss will be greater to the remaining EU member countries, especially Germany, than it will be to the UK.

We don't need to be in the EU to trade and cooperate amicably with all the other European countries, unless, of course, the remaining EU countries do not share the same intentions of international goodwill. Is that the REAL test that many are afraid of?

 

[Flyingfifer]

Here are some figures:

The annual net cost to the UK of being in the EU is £8.5bn: http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum

The EU accounts for less than 45% of UK exports for goods and services: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...g-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

The balance of trade between the UK and the EU for the January 2016 figures -£8.1bn from around 45% of our export trade whereas from the remaining 55% of our world trade the deficit is only -£2.2bn. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/january2016

Clearly the figures show that it costs us dearly, on trade figures alone, just to be in the EU. The rest of the EU will suffer from the loss of the UK's EU membership "fee" should we leave the EU. If the EU then imposes trade barriers to the rest of the EU trading with the UK outside the EU, then the loss will be greater to the remaining EU member countries, especially Germany, than it will be to the UK.

We don't need to be in the EU to trade and cooperate amicably with all the other European countries, unless, of course, the remaining EU countries do not share the same intentions of international goodwill. Is that the REAL test that many are afraid of?

Sorry fella but I dont think you understand what the trade figures mean.

They are the difference between how much we export and how much we import, unless we plan to reduce the goods we import or increase the goods we export the balance wont change, also the balance can be changed from either inside or outside the EU. The balance of Trade is an internal economic problem (in terms of us not making things ourselves to use instead of importing, then to export our spare) not an EU problem.

Our trade deficit wouldn't change and in fact may get worse, currently as part of the EU there are no trade tariffs (money paid for importing/exporting) this might not be the case post EU meaning importing and exporting may become more expensive (depending on trade negotiations). Granted such a situation would impact the EU negatively as well which is exactly why it should be avoided.

In terms of our "Membership Fee" this seems large yes but there are a myriad of different grants, support schemes and funds which we have access too (although limited thanks to the "rebate" the UK government loves so much) these benefit and support the likes of farmers and communities torn apart by the destruction of industry. Does this money offset the total "Cost"? No it doesnt but its the same argument as a high rate tax payer, do they get all their paid tax back in public service? Usually not.

 

[exdos]

Sorry fella but I dont think you understand what the trade figures mean.

They are the difference between how much we export and how much we import,

Patronising! :thumbsdown: Of course they are! Did I suggest any different? We buy more from the rest of Europe than we sell to them, so they presently benefit more than we do from this situation.

unless we plan to reduce the goods we import or increase the goods we export the balance wont change, also the balance can be changed from either inside or outside the EU. The balance of Trade is an internal economic problem (in terms of us not making things ourselves to use instead of importing, then to export our spare) not an EU problem.

But if our politicians choose to permit an import/export market without excessive barriers to international trade with specific countries then the trade figures will always be what they will be. Clearly we buy more than we sell. There seems to be little or no appetite for regulating consumer spending so I expect nothing to change in the foreseeable future.

Our trade deficit wouldn't change and in fact may get worse, currently as part of the EU there are no trade tariffs (money paid for importing/exporting) this might not be the case post EU meaning importing and exporting may become more expensive (depending on trade negotiations). Granted such a situation would impact the EU negatively as well which is exactly why it should be avoided.

See above.

As I see it, the rest of the EU has more to lose without the UK (not just economically) than the UK has to lose being outside the EU. Clearly we disagree.

 

[Flyingfifer]

Sorry fella but I dont think you understand what the trade figures mean.

They are the difference between how much we export and how much we import,

Patronising! :thumbsdown: Of course they are! Did I suggest any different? We buy more from the rest of Europe than we sell to them, so they presently benefit more than we do from this situation.

I genuinely tried to avoid it coming across that way as it was not intended to be. 8)

This part

Clearly the figures show that it costs us dearly, on trade figures alone, just to be in the EU.

I read as you saying that our trade balance would change if we left the EU.

There is a misconception here however, bare in mind we import their goods because we want and consume them so they are supplying us with what we want and need, if not from the EU we would buy these goods elsewhere probably at higher cost making the balance worse. Leaving the EU wouldnt change the goods and services that we import from them, we would still want and consume their produce and vice versa

unless we plan to reduce the goods we import or increase the goods we export the balance wont change, also the balance can be changed from either inside or outside the EU. The balance of Trade is an internal economic problem (in terms of us not making things ourselves to use instead of importing, then to export our spare) not an EU problem.

But if our politicians choose to permit an import/export market without excessive barriers to international trade with specific countries then the trade figures will always be what they will be. Clearly we buy more than we sell. There seems to be little or no appetite for regulating consumer spending so I expect nothing to change in the foreseeable future.

"If" Ultimately is the problem. What if the UK Gov introduces a tariff on EU imports, the price of the goods we currently enjoy will go up. Do I think the trade will change vastly? No, but neither will our trade balance.

As I see it, the rest of the EU has more to lose without the UK (not just economically) than the UK has to lose being outside the EU. Clearly we disagree.

Its strange, these are almost identical points that were discussed during the Independence referendum in Scotland, the UK Gov used the same reasons to stay in the UK as they are now using to stay in the EU however there are some who were "Unionists" who are now using the "Nationalist" arguments to for the UK to leave the EU.

 

[exdos]

There is a misconception here however, bare in mind we import their goods because we want and consume them so they are supplying us with what we want and need, if not from the EU we would buy these goods elsewhere probably at higher cost making the balance worse. Leaving the EU wouldnt change the goods and services that we import from them, we would still want and consume their produce and vice versa

What we want and what we need are 2 different things. There must surely be a point, when the total cost of any purchase is greater than its perceived value, and when that situation arises, we simply refrain from the purchase. Therefore if leaving the EU forces the UK and its consumers to buy the goods and services that we want (not need) at a price beyond the tipping point then the imports of such items will reduce. Whether this has any significant effect on the balance of trade, we can only guess.

"If" Ultimately is the problem. What if the UK Gov introduces a tariff on EU imports, the price of the goods we currently enjoy will go up. Do I think the trade will change vastly? No, but neither will our trade balance.

Personally, I think the UK government is unlikely to take such action unilaterally. Likewise, will the likes of BMW and VAG allow the Germans to support the EU placing increased tariffs on German exports to the UK? I doubt it.

Its strange, these are almost identical points that were discussed during the Independence referendum in Scotland, the UK Gov used the same reasons to stay in the UK as they are now using to stay in the EU however there are some who were "Unionists" who are now using the "Nationalist" arguments to for the UK to leave the EU.

I can see the parallel arguments. However, I think that the arguments for Scotland remaining within the UK even if the UK leaves the EU are more logical than for an Independent Scotland remaining within the EU, unless the Scots with independence expect to be a net beneficiary of the EU from all the grants. Grants from the EU don't grow on trees from grants from the Common Agricultural Policy, they must come from somewhere! If the UK left the EU that would be many £billions less in the EU's kitty each year to support such grants etc..

 

[stuartinzg]

Here are some figures:

The annual net cost to the UK of being in the EU is £8.5bn: http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum

The EU accounts for less than 45% of UK exports for goods and services: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...g-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

The balance of trade between the UK and the EU for the January 2016 figures -£8.1bn from around 45% of our export trade whereas from the remaining 55% of our world trade the deficit is only -£2.2bn. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/january2016

Clearly the figures show that it costs us dearly, on trade figures alone, just to be in the EU. The rest of the EU will suffer from the loss of the UK's EU membership "fee" should we leave the EU. If the EU then imposes trade barriers to the rest of the EU trading with the UK outside the EU, then the loss will be greater to the remaining EU member countries, especially Germany, than it will be to the UK.

We don't need to be in the EU to trade and cooperate amicably with all the other European countries, unless, of course, the remaining EU countries do not share the same intentions of international goodwill. Is that the REAL test that many are afraid of?

Off the wall comparison - did you know that Munich contributes net billions of euros to Berlin annually. Berlin has been a money pit of Germany for years - I'm not well versed enough to know why, but I do know that various "states" of Germany contribute to each other and the net effect is a functional country. Not everyone in Munich is happy about the situation, some want to split away - Bavaria after all is very different to the rest of the country, they even have their own dialect which is very different to regular German.

But, look at the power of the country as a whole - what would Bavaria be on its own? What intangible benefits do they get by being connected to the rest of Germany? They are a united country - and together they achieve more.

In the end, there's a lot more to life than money - trying to make the decision which will affect us for the next 50 years, purely on the basis of the current trade metrics is either naive, short sighted, blinkered or just plain ignorant - sorry if that offends anyone, but please, wake up.

And as much as it pains me to bring up this old cliché, my grandfather and great grandfather didn't run across Normandy purely for money - it wasn't long ago we were all killing each other in Europe - it doesn't matter what it costs, stability and a united front against aggressors is better than pulling back. Yes NATO and EU defence is separate and we're talking about something different, but like any business partnership, you start pulling back, it's the start of the end. Many businesses have said it will be bad, Ford have even made a statement about re-evaluating their investment in the UK. Who do you need to hear it from to believe that it is not in our best interests when looking at the bigger picture? Who in your mind is not corrupt, not lying, not pulling the wool over your eyes - who do you respect enough to hear a solid picture of why we need to stay in Europe?

I'm not saying Europe is great, that it doesn't have its fair share of problems, that we couldn't renegotiate certain policies which don't make sense - like any marriage it needs work and it needs re-evaluating, but to leave completely? Unacceptable.

 

[Flyingfifer]

Off the wall comparison - did you know that Munich contributes net billions of euros to Berlin annually. Berlin has been a money pit of Germany for years - I'm not well versed enough to know why, but I do know that various "states" of Germany contribute to each other and the net effect is a functional country. Not everyone in Munich is happy about the situation, some want to split away - Bavaria after all is very different to the rest of the country, they even have their own dialect which is very different to regular German.

But, look at the power of the country as a whole - what would Bavaria be on its own? What intangible benefits do they get by being connected to the rest of Germany? They are a united country - and together they achieve more.

In the end, there's a lot more to life than money - trying to make the decision which will affect us for the next 50 years, purely on the basis of the current trade metrics is either naive, short sighted, blinkered or just plain ignorant - sorry if that offends anyone, but please, wake up.

And as much as it pains me to bring up this old cliché, my grandfather and great grandfather didn't run across Normandy purely for money - it wasn't long ago we were all killing each other in Europe - it doesn't matter what it costs, stability and a united front against aggressors is better than pulling back. Yes NATO and EU defence is separate and we're talking about something different, but like any business partnership, you start pulling back, it's the start of the end. Many businesses have said it will be bad, Ford have even made a statement about re-evaluating their investment in the UK. Who do you need to hear it from to believe that it is not in our best interests when looking at the bigger picture? Who in your mind is not corrupt, not lying, not pulling the wool over your eyes - who do you respect enough to hear a solid picture of why we need to stay in Europe?

I'm not saying Europe is great, that it doesn't have its fair share of problems, that we couldn't renegotiate certain policies which don't make sense - like any marriage it needs work and it needs re-evaluating, but to leave completely? Unacceptable.

 

[stuartinzg]

We buy more from the rest of Europe than we sell to them, so they presently benefit more than we do from this situation.

As I see it, the rest of the EU has more to lose without the UK (not just economically) than the UK has to lose being outside the EU. Clearly we disagree.

So as long as we're "winners", it's OK ?

The trade deficit is solvable by making the UK a more attractive place to do business, by having more manufacturing and investment, by getting companies to switch from building plants in Germany and France to the UK.

Do you think leaving the EU will make this easier or harder?

So far we have seen a steady investment in manufacturing plants and now manufacture more than we have in years - it's a shame we can't run a successful car company (sorry McLaren, thinking bigger) but at least we're assembling and building again.

The IT industry in the UK needs a kick up the backside. Trying to find able and affordable engineers is very difficult, the quality of the computer science education compared to the EU and the US is very poor. This sector will suffer in the coming years, as it already has done - the IT contractor rates have gone down over the last 2 years due to the quality of non UK based workers and the ease of collaborative working remotely.

Another poster here mentioned working with UK youngsters and noticing that EU workers have far more potential - I noticed the same thing, hence we had to setup an R&D/development office outside the UK - I had to move countries to build something successful. What does that tell you?

The issue here is core - the UK education system needs reform, we need more skilled workers who can do the jobs, we need more investment and more production, it's getting better but it has a long way to go to compete with EU, USA and Asia.

Do you think leaving the EU will make the UK less or more attractive in the global market?

I've said all I can on this subject now, but please consider all of this

 

[exdos]

So as long as we're "winners", it's OK ?

:scratchhead: What's the In/out debate all about if not arguing the case for how the prosperity and life for the UK citizen will turn out best in the long run? Although the "for" and "against" arguments are different and in opposition, aren't we all trying to achieve the same thing but in different ways?

 

[exdos]

Off the wall comparison - did you know that Munich contributes net billions of euros to Berlin annually. Berlin has been a money pit of Germany for years - I'm not well versed enough to know why, but I do know that various "states" of Germany contribute to each other and the net effect is a functional country. Not everyone in Munich is happy about the situation, some want to split away - Bavaria after all is very different to the rest of the country, they even have their own dialect which is very different to regular German.

But, look at the power of the country as a whole - what would Bavaria be on its own? What intangible benefits do they get by being connected to the rest of Germany? They are a united country - and together they achieve more.

What you are saying is exactly the same argument for Scotland remaining as part of the UK. Better together.

 

[stuartinzg]

So as long as we're "winners", it's OK ?

:scratchhead: What's the In/out debate all about if not arguing the case for how the prosperity and life for the UK citizen will turn out best in the long run? Although the "for" and "against" arguments are different and in opposition, aren't we all trying to achieve the same thing but in different ways?

What I'm saying is we can't look at winning just as the UK any more, we have to look at winning and fighting as Europe. In the US they don't win in Texas or in California - they win as the US. The UK just isn't big enough to sustain itself in the world market now that we have China growing at the rate it is, Iran coming back into the theatre, India becoming much more savvy and educated and so are up and coming countries in and around the EU - Romania for example. It might be the most corrupt country in the EU at the moment, but are certainly educating some serious talent in IT ! Leaving the EU will not make the average UK persons life any better - it will not get you more money, more jobs or more investment. If that's what you want, it'll achieve the opposite.

As a UK citizen we are better off focusing on our own internal problems than becoming more isolated - stop blaming everyone else for our own failings. I see education as the biggest driver - compare our schools to the EU and Asia and the huge void is apparent.

 

[buzyg]

Slightly tongue in cheek but I'm surprised Marlon hasn't come up with a poll on this yet... :wink:
Stevo

:lol:

Me too..

 

[buzyg]

Personally I'm sure the country would be more secure out of the EU. I'm also sure buying a property or business and moving /retiring to Spain or France would become a lot more of a pain. Just a few more little examples of things you might care about at some point in the coming years.

 

[exdos]

As a UK citizen we are better off focusing on our own internal problems than becoming more isolated - stop blaming everyone else for our own failings. I see education as the biggest driver - compare our schools to the EU and Asia and the huge void is apparent.

You might recall Tony B.Liar's mantra of "Education. Education. Education." with inflated exam results, the wholesale increased accessibility to further education at newly created "universities" in converted garages and swimming baths etc. now with degrees for around 50% of the younger generation accompanied by huge amounts of personal debt. Like you, I see education as the biggest driver, but our governments have got it all wrong.

 

[stuartinzg]

Personally I'm sure the country would be more secure out of the EU.

If by secure you mean not relevant, then probably.

 

[buzyg]

Personally I'm sure the country would be more secure out of the EU.

If by secure you mean not relevant, then probably.

No I mean secure, as in the dictionary definition of secure.

 

[Taz]

I've just read the the governments £9m pro Euro document. Thats not done 1 thing to make me think i need to be in Europe. What a waste of £9m

 

[ekimj10]

Taz wrote

I've just read the the governments £9m pro Euro document. Thats not done 1 thing to make me think i need to be in Europe. What a waste of £9m

I'm told there is a major effort to return the document to the PM at No. 10.
Address it and post it without stamps.

 

[john-e89]

I'm told there is a major effort to return the document to the PM at No. 10.
Address it and post it without stamps.

Yep and make sure you crap in the envelope first...

...he sends you his s**t, you send him your's... :rtfm: