How do you steer when driving fast

C

cj10jeeper

Lifer
 Lichfield, England
I was having an interesting discussion with a buddy the other day about different driving styles and it made me wonder if there is a prescribed or correct way to steer a sports car at speed on the twisty stuff.

We all know how to get around a corner (although judging by some threads not always... :) , we know how we were taught at basic driving school and the sloppy habits that develop.

Many have had some track experience, but I'm interested in those who train or have been trained on high speed road/track driving of sports cars (not rally or other forms) as to the correct method to hold and move the wheel into though and out of fast bends.

Is it to:
a) hold the wheel in a comfortable 10 to 2 position or similar position and in effect never move the hands from that position on the wheel while cornering.
b) shuffle or feed the wheel though turns, thus keeping the hands in a close to consistent horizontal position.
c) other method?
 
Combination of a) and c) as I cross my arms if the bend is too great. I am slightly more towards the quarter to three as that means I can get through 95% of all corners without having to move my hands of the wheel.

Using b) would be dangerous in my opinion and as far as I know, has only ever been taught in the UK. I have never seen that anywhere else in the world. I would have failed my drivers exam if I had done that one!
 
I've done courses at Silverstone and at Prodrive's facility, and I think the generally recommended technique is quarter-to-three positioning with no movement from those positions unless requiring more lock. In that case, i've heard 1 recommendation that, at full arm-crossing (i.e. half-lock), you bring the over-the-top hand back around to the other side of the wheel, and then, once gripped on the wheel, move the other hand to where the first came from, thus allowing for another 1/2 of lock before you have to repeat again. The other technique, and the one I find easiest, is to move the appropriate hand down to the centre spoke of the wheel and turn from there i.e. quarter-to-six positioning. That allows you to turn the wheel about 3/4 of lock without further repositioning.
 
I have no idea. But thinking that the Advance Driving Course by the local BMW chapter will cover it. May 9 - 10. Can't wait. :driving:

Now if the weather would just co-operate and stop snowing every few days!!!

Anywho... below is a clip from a local solo2 event... Lotus Elise. Not sure if his steering technique is good though. But this maybe be a good starting point for discussion.

[youtube]3mRq_ChDt_w[/youtube]
 
pvr said:
Using b) would be dangerous in my opinion and as far as I know, has only ever been taught in the UK. I have never seen that anywhere else in the world. I would have failed my drivers exam if I had done that one!
Click to expand...

This is the method using to teach newbies to drive, not fast road driving. Feeding the wheel through your hands is designed to show novices how fast you should be going at any given moment; if you turn into a road at 90 degrees and cannot comfortably feed the wheel through (i.e. need to cross arms) you are going too fast. As soon as you pass your test you can bin this. I generally drive at a quarter to three, ten to two feels uncomfortable to me. Every track course I have done has said crossing over is fine.
 
I was trained in rally driving a long time back, done some circuit work, but then potentially totally messed up style by a decade of competitive off road where it's more important to avoid breaking your thumbs on kick back than anything else and then teaching several people to drive in the bizarre UK specific driving test method...

I'm vindicated as I tend to hold probably slightly above 9 & 3 due to where the paddle shifts are now located and keep hands on the wheel right there throughout turns. If not enough add a flick with the finger tips, or for a real tight turn sliding 1 hand down to the 6 position to give a 3/4 full turn. As an aside this is real cool to be able to operate paddle shifts as you prepare to enter the bend ,or on exit, without taking one hand off the wheel, or on gentle turns even changing mid bend.

Thanks - interesting responses
 
Screamer said:
I've done courses at Silverstone and at Prodrive's facility, and I think the generally recommended technique is quarter-to-three positioning with no movement from those positions unless requiring more lock. In that case, i've heard 1 recommendation that, at full arm-crossing (i.e. half-lock), you bring the over-the-top hand back around to the other side of the wheel, and then, once gripped on the wheel, move the other hand to where the first came from, thus allowing for another 1/2 of lock before you have to repeat again. The other technique, and the one I find easiest, is to move the appropriate hand down to the centre spoke of the wheel and turn from there i.e. quarter-to-six positioning. That allows you to turn the wheel about 3/4 of lock without further repositioning.
Click to expand...

This is how I was taught :thumbsup:
 
I agree that in most cases you would have your hands on the wheel at all times. That being said, going through a set of twisties ( left and rights or any combination to less than a 90-100 degree turn of the steering wheel ) a 10 and 2 position of the hands on the wheel works well.

Now you are in sets of 180 degree or greater turns coming around canyon walls called switchbacks. How do you make that turn without having your arms being a pretzel? The only way I could see being able to make turns like that keeping both hands on the wheel, the steering box would need to have a different ratio than that of the Z.

Perhaps as mikedav states that taking a 180 degree turn marked at 15 mph at say 30 is just taking the turn too fast for the radious of that turn. :oops: Which creates the need to move the hands. Not a good thing.

I have had some drivers training and have always been told to attempt to keep the shoulders level and when you go from having the shoulders level ie: lifting shoulders off the seat and bring your shoulders more towards the front of the car to make a turn you start to compromise the control of the steering wheel. If you are in a 5 point harness you can barely raise your shoulders as I discribe. Another thought that may create a difference aslo is my training was with rack and pinion steering and not with power steering?

This is a great discussion. :thumbsup: What other thoughts do you guys have on the 180 degree turns?
 
At homecoming, they teach you the 10-2 position or there abouts. Always keep at least one hand on the wheel at all times. They said do NOT cross over cause if the airbag deploys, this would break your hands/arms. What they recommended was a scoot type of turn. Let the wheel flow thru one hand while turning with the other till you can go no further, then take the flowing hand and grab the wheel and let the grabbed hand slide up to re-grab the wheel. I hope you guys understand. IF not, then maybe someone else could elaborate that has been to HC and knows their procedure.
 
Why overthink things? This way you can handle twisties and hold a beverage:
16931_lg.jpg
 
adama222 said:
Why overthink things? This way you can handle twisties and hold a beverage:
16931_lg.jpg
Click to expand...

Perhaps Lewis H needs one of those if he's to see anything other than the tail of Kimi R this season....lol
 
When driving my BMW MINI's fast in the past I used to drive one handed! (just a habit I got into). Can't do that with the Z4 as it's more of a twitchy handful so I tend to use the quarter-to-three position. :driving:
 
I generally use a quarter to three posision with a fairly light touch and my thumbs outside the spokes. This get's me round most tracks without changing my grip. Check out this footage. The quality's a bit poor but it shows you how a pro does it. It gets interesting around the 2mins 30 sec mark!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lMItc4cy8U
 
Curtis said:
I generally use a quarter to three posision with a fairly light touch and my thumbs outside the spokes. This get's me round most tracks without changing my grip. Check out this footage. The quality's a bit poor but it shows you how a pro does it. It gets interesting around the 2mins 30 sec mark!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lMItc4cy8U
Click to expand...

Nice video.The hand position rarely gets to a half past 12. On a track that is made to go fast and where the road is basicly flat and the lane is quite wide, the quarter to three is spot on! Having a steering wheel that is the size of a socker ball also helps.

I am how ever taking the point that is being made ever so lightly. You want to drive fast, put it on the track. :oops:

On a track where there is a hairpin type turn (if you race that type of track ), how do you think you hands would handle that specific type of a turn? Most likely a one handed turn of the wheel and a hand on the gearbox to downshift then upshifting asap.
Taking that thought one step further, If the hairpin turn is more open turn, how would the hands fair differently?

I do not mean to be bothersum. I really have no other place to ask these types of questions where I think I might actually get straight answer (opinion). The last time I asked questions like this at a track, the looks I got and the answers were right in my face: If you are asking questions like those, you have no business being here. It's not so much of an answer I'm looking for as it is an opinion. I do supprise some of the get out of my face type drivers, when with my stock Z4 hangs in their rear veiw as much as it does. I may be old and a bit set in my ways, however I like to think I have an open mind and still looking for a better way.

TIA
 
IMZ4N said:
Curtis said:
I generally use a quarter to three posision with a fairly light touch and my thumbs outside the spokes. This get's me round most tracks without changing my grip. Check out this footage. The quality's a bit poor but it shows you how a pro does it. It gets interesting around the 2mins 30 sec mark!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lMItc4cy8U
Click to expand...

Nice video.The hand position rarely gets to a half past 12. On a track that is made to go fast and where the road is basicly flat and the lane is quite wide, the quarter to three is spot on! Having a steering wheel that is the size of a socker ball also helps.

I am how ever taking the point that is being made ever so lightly. You want to drive fast, put it on the track. :oops:

On a track where there is a hairpin type turn (if you race that type of track ), how do you think you hands would handle that specific type of a turn? Most likely a one handed turn of the wheel and a hand on the gearbox to downshift then upshifting asap.
Taking that thought one step further, If the hairpin turn is more open turn, how would the hands fair differently?


I do not mean to be bothersum. I really have no other place to ask these types of questions where I think I might actually get straight answer (opinion). The last time I asked questions like this at a track, the looks I got and the answers were right in my face: If you are asking questions like those, you have no business being here. It's not so much of an answer I'm looking for as it is an opinion. I do supprise some of the get out of my face type drivers, when with my stock Z4 hangs in their rear veiw as much as it does. I may be old and a bit set in my ways, however I like to think I have an open mind and still looking for a better way.

TIA
Click to expand...

Great discusssion has ensued.
I think we are all generally in agreement the quarter to three is the right position and will cater for 95% of the time on road or track and keeps the whole thing stable and controlled.
The interesting bit still seems to be where do you go from the point at which a fixed grip becomes difficult as you wish to turn harder than such allows without excessively crossing arms like a wound up rubber band? Race/track cars have tiny lock to lock so they largely avoid the issue while the Z4 is less lock than standard cars it's still more than track.

This is where the variations come in and the need to go 1 handed, adjust initial grip, add a flick with one hand or take another bits at it.
 
Interesting question! I had to think hard to picture what it is I do under those circumstances. Most tracks here fortunately don't require more than 180 degree turn of the wheel from straight ahead so both hands stay at 3 and 9. I have on occations had to go beyond this though, usually when I go too deep into a corner and have to compensate! Unfortunately there's no perfect way to do it, to make a right turn for example I take my right hand off the wheel and quickly reposition it at around the 10 o clock position. This allows me to turn the steering through a larger angle while allowing the wheel to run through my left hand which can grab hold at any point and maintain control. Not very elegant but these are the compromises unless you get a high ratio rack! Other people probably have a different method but this works for me.

As for upshifting/downshifting, I can't think of a single situation where I would be changing gear while cornering apart from perhaps at the final point of exiting a slight bend where I may be accelerating and I'm not on the limit of grip. Assuming your cornering at the limit of adhesion any attempt to accelerate, brake, change gear will unsettle the car and dump you into the tyre wall! Basically I get all my braking/downshifting done, turn in and negotiate the corner, accelerate and upshift. The three moves never overlap they sort of blend! There may be exceptions such as double apex corners, tight initially then opening up for example but it's always wise to enter the first part using a gear that you can use to exit the second part. If your not on the absolute limit of traction you might get away with it but it's a good general rule to follow.

The way it works is this, the tyres can only provide a fixed amount of traction which has to be shared between three consumers, braking, accelating and lateral grip. If your using 100% of the tyres grip to brake it doesn't have anything else to offer if you want to turn in and create lateral grip to negotiate the corner so you go straight on or the back end snaps round! If your exiting a corner using 100% of the tyres ability to hold you through the bend and you try to accelerate, the tyres have nothing more to offer and the back of the car breaks away or the front end drifts out or the whole car slides sideways depending on your setup. If you try to brake mid corner the tyres have to use some of the traction they were using to hold you in the bend and somethings gotta give so you loose lateral grip and slide wide. If you balance the car through the bend, holding it at the limit of grip then disconnect the drive by dipping the clutch then reingage it you will have a very unsettled car which will try to bite you for it! As a corner opens up towards the exit you can back off the steering angle which reduces the amount of grip being used to hold you through the corner and you can use that spare grip to accelerate gradually but I wouldn't change gear until I'm pointing straight ahead except for extremely rare situations. All this depends on whether you are at the limit or near the limit of course. If your driving Miss Daisy you'll get away with pretty much anything!
 
This is where the variations come in and the need to go 1 handed, adjust initial grip, add a flick with one hand or take another bits at it.
Click to expand...

You are spot on cj10jeeper. I do not always explain myself very well sometimes. I do enjoy the chat about it though. Thank you for putting up with my questions. :thumbsup: I'm sure on the track you have more to this than just turning the wheel as well. I assume that you have a bit of driving with the throttle ( slight drifting action going on ) expecially whith the steering locks you talk about.

There is alot of differences as well. As you know, I have a steptronic and I would guess that the race cars have a manuel (more one handed driving). I am actively looking for a paddle shift steering wheel as we speak for my next mod.
 
Curtis,

Well put :thumbsup: It is much like walking a tight rope. Pluses and minuses all through the turns. I much agree that using 100 percent of the tires and/or suspension is not a good thing. :oops: Some of these things come natural to the pros ( doing what needs to happen at the time it needs to happen without much thought , reflex action) :thumbsup: Thank you for the insite ( I was not tring to make you think that hard ). It does come down to instinct and been there done that. Somethings are hard to explain and it is most often easier to experience it ( on a track). IMHO this type of sharing going on in this and other threads, is what makes this forum so great ( it speeks volumes about the peolpe here as well ). Thank you again for dumbing it down for me. I feel this is most likely the straightest answer ( opinion ) I have ever gotten. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
Curtis said:
The way it works is this, the tyres can only provide a fixed amount of traction which has to be shared between three consumers, braking, accelating and lateral grip. If your using 100% of the tyres grip to brake it doesn't have anything else to offer if you want to turn in and create lateral grip to negotiate the corner so you go straight on or the back end snaps round! If your exiting a corner using 100% of the tyres ability to hold you through the bend and you try to accelerate, the tyres have nothing more to offer and the back of the car breaks away or the front end drifts out or the whole car slides sideways depending on your setup. If you try to brake mid corner the tyres have to use some of the traction they were using to hold you in the bend and somethings gotta give so you loose lateral grip and slide wide. If you balance the car through the bend, holding it at the limit of grip then disconnect the drive by dipping the clutch then reingage it you will have a very unsettled car which will try to bite you for it! As a corner opens up towards the exit you can back off the steering angle which reduces the amount of grip being used to hold you through the corner and you can use that spare grip to accelerate gradually but I wouldn't change gear until I'm pointing straight ahead except for extremely rare situations. All this depends on whether you are at the limit or near the limit of course. If your driving Miss Daisy you'll get away with pretty much anything!
Click to expand...

That's a spot-on description of the process and hence why techniques like trail braking (braking while turning into the corner) are used by those more experienced: why use some of the straight before the corner to brake, when you can spend a fraction more time on the throttle on that straight by extending your braking into the corner, when such grip is available - it often is, as a driver tends to increase brake pedal pressure slowly (ish), so chances are there's grip left over to turn with instead. The best way to imagine it firstly is that you brake in a straight line, enter a corner and maintain the same speed for most of it, and then accellerate once out. The more advanced way, though, says 'why not mix them up - at the starts and ends of these processes, you're often not using 100% of grip available, so why not use the excess by starting the next process early/ending the previous process late?'

Just 1 addition to the 'braking while in a corner' technique and why it's bad: most cars, including the Z4, have their brake-bias forward-weighed i.e. when you press the brake pedal, more force is excerted on the front wheels than the back. In all situations, then, the front wants to slow quicker than the back. In a straight line, that's fine because the back can't overtake the front because they're travelling on exactly the same path, and their momentum is aimed in that direction, too. When going around a corner, though, they're often on slightly different paths, and their momentums are certainly no longer pointing in the same direction as travel. Hit the brakes in that scenario and there's a high chance of being turned around - with weight transferred to the front of the car, there's less holding the rear driven wheels down, too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom