Have the police made a mistake?

pvr said:
Ewazix, you are right about that part where it is a straight forward stop - however that is not the case if they do not stop the driver at the time and accuse the owner who either has to fess up or nominate someone else. If you can't do either - you are guilty (of a different offence code) but still guilty.

The Hamilton case was the last one to go through on that without finding either party guilty. Now they would convict both or force one of them to lie to secure a conviction either way.
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Yes, but with Liam being stopped at the time (and without judging the facts or being pessimistic) talk of loopholes and HR case law might encourage a fruitless and costly grasping of straws. You'd know if it was 'a fair cop' or not, if so pay up and take what ever lessons you can, if it's all wrong then of course contest it 8)
 
Fully agreed, being stopped you are battling the opinion and the secondary evidence device which will be a waste of time. I was commenting on the more general point, when you have not been stopped at all where you are guilty of either the actual offence or an alternative failure to supply one, and have to defend your innocence rather than the "other side" having to prove your guilt.
 
Just as an aside to this interesting legal argument you mention being at the back of the line as a novice.

Not sure if you've thought that out fully as on this forum and others on cruises the faster/skilled drivers are generally at the rear, with a skilled driver as 'sweeper' as last man.

As an inevitable result of the concertina effect of slowing for traffic, overtaking cars, etc. the last drivers have to be really fast to get back to the average.
If the lead held 60 it would not be surprising to expect the latter part of a line to be hitting 70-80 (KPH of course) above or that on clear bits, just to keep up.

Inevitably they don't keep up and get lost or risk being those caught. If they are in the first few they can cruise at 60 in perfect serenity
 
Just thinking out loud here but theoretically could a cop lazer a vehicle doing 60mph and not reset the gun, then when stopping all other vehicles after that show the 60mph reading on the gun to everybody he stops without actually recording their speed at all.
What I mean by this is a speed gets recorded and then the cop picks who he wants to blame.
Obviously the guns that have your pic on them cant do this but what about the guns that only show speed.
 
Ewazix said:
I think there is a bit of confusion about burden of proof presumption of innocence etc, but it's quite simple really - the only evidence required re speed is the the officers OPINION about your speed, corroborated by another officer or a reliable device (speedo, gun, VASCAR time/distance unit etc). They don't need to prove the EXACT speed, only that beyond reasonable doubt it was over 60 in your case.

Police can take you to court, or offer you the cheaper more attractive option of an administrative fine or possibly naughty school. If you think the officer was wrong or has cocked up the evidence you can challenge it. The Police will serve all the evidence, you can decide to plead and take the greater fine/costs at that point or fight it at court. There will be no presumption of guilt and normal criminal rules apply.

You asked the right question at the outset, "have the police made a mistake"? I'm guessing you know the answer! So either pay the fine/do naughty school, or challenge it, but I wouldn't get too carried away trying to be Nick 'the loophole Freeman' it'l likely end up as an expensive waste of time and isn't worth it unless you are trying to save your licence/job, better to invest the money in some bigger mirrors :poke:

Hope it pans out OK :thumbsup:
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Totally agree and sorry Havard but I don't agree with your take on it at all. Read up on traffic law and the points to prove if you really want to challenge this but if you do, know it'll potentially end up costing you a lot more for the sake of a few points and a fine. You've already admitted you don't know what speed you were doing, are you going to stand up in a court of law and say categorically you were doing under the speed limit? (And that's just a start).

For example, I witnessed the rider of bike reg number XXXXXXX doing 74mph in a 60mph limit, I used speed gun XXXXX calibrated correctly and have the certificate to prove, also my training in said equipment is present and correct. I noted a number of bikes travelling in close proximity which I believed to be exceeding the speed limit, I targeted the bike at the back of the pack as this was the easiest for me to target with my speed gun equipment due to the close proximity of the bikes travelling together. The speed gun registered 74mph of said bike at which time I made progress to catch and pull over the bike in question. (Also potentially adding I made a mental note of the registration of the bike at the time and/or a description of the bike). Once pulled over, I showed the rider what speed I had registered him travelling at and verbally explained I would be reporting him for the offence of exceeding the stated speed limit. The offender gave no comment. I made a note of the incident in my PNB at this time, including all relevant info (reg/description of bike etc.) which I can also show to the court as further evidence of this incident. I then issued the rider with the correct paperwork. I believe to the best of my knowledge this to be a true and actual account of the events outlined above.

Now
A) Explain and if possible provide evidence to the court why you believe beyond reasonable doubt you were not doing the speed indicated by the officer in question
B) Explain and if possible provide evidence to the court why you believe beyond reasonable doubt that you were not the offending biker in question and there is a case of mistaken identity

Do you have witnesses? You were at the back of the pack as stated, so I presume not? What evidence do you have to suggest you may have been wrongly accused? Merely stating you were riding in a close group is not sufficient by the way. If anything, being at the back of the pack makes you the most easiest to pick out and identify as opposed to someone in the middle of the pack for example.

Obviously the above is all very theoretical, but what evidence are you going to use to 'dis-prove' if you like? Basically, why should a court believe you over the copper reporting you ?
 
Whatever the outcome the answer to the OP's original question is unfortunately yes, the Police have made a mistake. They make the same mistake every time they fail to exercise any discretion in these instances and continue to systematically alienate the hard working, law abiding, tax paying, honest, ethical citizens that would once go out of their way to pro-actively assist any officer of the law in the furtherance of his moral duties, but these days alas are more likely to turn away or walk on by even if an officer may be in need of help or in potential danger. Sad but true. :thumbsdown:
 
Don't turn this into another cop bashing thread based on your opinion. It's bloody tedious. The guy was most likely speeding by the sounds of it, regardless of his status in society or whatever else. For all the copper knew he might have been some serial offender scrote driving without insurance/ license whatever. Who are you to say who should get fined and who shouldn't. Everyone knows the speed limit, if you decide to break it then if you get caught how can you complain?
And yes I've been caught speeding recently, bang to rights, annoying initially but my own fault ultimately, no big deal in the scheme of things.

And by the way, your last statement, if you genuinely would walk by if another human being was in trouble regardless of who it was then that says a lot about you to be honest.
 
AndyBeech said:
Totally agree and sorry Havard but I don't agree with your take on it at all. Read up on traffic law and the points to prove if you really want to challenge this but if you do, know it'll potentially end up costing you a lot more for the sake of a few points and a fine. You've already admitted you don't know what speed you were doing, are you going to stand up in a court of law and say categorically you were doing under the speed limit? (And that's just a start).

For example, I witnessed the rider of bike reg number XXXXXXX doing 74mph in a 60mph limit, I used speed gun XXXXX calibrated correctly and have the certificate to prove, also my training in said equipment is present and correct. I noted a number of bikes travelling in close proximity which I believed to be exceeding the speed limit, I targeted the bike at the back of the pack as this was the easiest for me to target with my speed gun equipment due to the close proximity of the bikes travelling together. The speed gun registered 74mph of said bike at which time I made progress to catch and pull over the bike in question. (Also potentially adding I made a mental note of the registration of the bike at the time and/or a description of the bike). Once pulled over, I showed the rider what speed I had registered him travelling at and verbally explained I would be reporting him for the offence of exceeding the stated speed limit. The offender gave no comment. I made a note of the incident in my PNB at this time, including all relevant info (reg/description of bike etc.) which I can also show to the court as further evidence of this incident. I then issued the rider with the correct paperwork. I believe to the best of my knowledge this to be a true and actual account of the events outlined above.

Now
A) Explain and if possible provide evidence to the court why you believe beyond reasonable doubt you were not doing the speed indicated by the officer in question
B) Explain and if possible provide evidence to the court why you believe beyond reasonable doubt that you were not the offending biker in question and there is a case of mistaken identity

Do you have witnesses? You were at the back of the pack as stated, so I presume not? What evidence do you have to suggest you may have been wrongly accused? Merely stating you were riding in a close group is not sufficient by the way. If anything, being at the back of the pack makes you the most easiest to pick out and identify as opposed to someone in the middle of the pack for example.

Obviously the above is all very theoretical, but what evidence are you going to use to 'dis-prove' if you like? Basically, why should a court believe you over the copper reporting you ?
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Yep - you have 0% chance of winning that one, and a huge cost to get to that stage. An actual stop is about as close to a 100% conviction rate as you can get.
 
I'm not proud of the way I feel towards coppers these days and I really don't want to feel that way either. What is tedious though is the number of mobile speed vans I see lately parked up in positions that appear to be selected for income generation rather than improving safety. When the vans are at the bottom of steep inclines very close to step changes in speed limit of 20 or 30mph in areas where there are no crossings, schools or in some cases on dual carriageways where there aren't even any footpaths I struggle to accept this is where their efforts should be concentrated.

I make great use of my cruise control and do pass many of these vans at just under the limit but even though I check double check and triple check as I pass them it annoys the hell out of me that I will then wonder if I could still get a NIP through for a couple of weeks because of faulty set up or something. I did not mind the old fashioned way of getting pulled by a real person there and then but I just think these sneakily positioned vans that have you worrying for weeks should be limited to accident black spots or near schools etc.

I feel for the OP having to wait so long to know the outcome and I fail to see why some are prosecuted and others not with no proper fair and transparent process of prioritisation or assessment.
 
AndyBeech said:
Don't turn this into another cop bashing thread based on your opinion. It's bloody tedious. The guy was most likely speeding by the sounds of it, regardless of his status in society or whatever else. For all the copper knew he might have been some serial offender scrote driving without insurance/ license whatever. Who are you to say who should get fined and who shouldn't. Everyone knows the speed limit, if you decide to break it then if you get caught how can you complain?
And yes I've been caught speeding recently, bang to rights, annoying initially but my own fault ultimately, no big deal in the scheme of things.

And by the way, your last statement, if you genuinely would walk by if another human being was in trouble regardless of who it was then that says a lot about you to be honest.
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I agree with you Andy and my previous posts tried to explain that. Generally the opinion of a Police officer is trusted in court, but he/she has a duty to follow procedure. If you are brave enough to take this to court, you may prove that the officer made a mistake or didn't follow the correct procedure. The odds are against you but everyone has the right to challenge the system, especially if money isn't an object.

In my 7 years working with GMP, I saw many a case where a relatively small detail, swung the result completely. Everyone has an opinion on stuff like this but you will only know the lottery of a court room if you have the balls to pay for your time there. Even though I left the force, pretty "anti Police", I cannot agree with the comment about not assisting an officer in serious trouble. That is how anarchy starts.
H.
 
Havard said:
AndyBeech said:
Don't turn this into another cop bashing thread based on your opinion. It's bloody tedious. The guy was most likely speeding by the sounds of it, regardless of his status in society or whatever else. For all the copper knew he might have been some serial offender scrote driving without insurance/ license whatever. Who are you to say who should get fined and who shouldn't. Everyone knows the speed limit, if you decide to break it then if you get caught how can you complain?
And yes I've been caught speeding recently, bang to rights, annoying initially but my own fault ultimately, no big deal in the scheme of things.

And by the way, your last statement, if you genuinely would walk by if another human being was in trouble regardless of who it was then that says a lot about you to be honest.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Andy and my previous posts tried to explain that. Generally the opinion of a Police officer is trusted in court, but he/she has a duty to follow procedure. If you are brave enough to take this to court, you may prove that the officer made a mistake or didn't follow the correct procedure. The odds are against you but everyone has the right to challenge the system, especially if money isn't an object.

In my 7 years working with GMP, I saw many a case where a relatively small detail, swung the result completely. Everyone has an opinion on stuff like this but you will only know the lottery of a court room if you have the balls to pay for your time there. Even though I left the force, pretty "anti Police", I cannot agree with the comment about not assisting an officer in serious trouble. That is how anarchy starts.
H.
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For clarity "serious trouble" did not appear in my post.

In the past I have put myself in danger at least once to assist the Police, something that many would never do anyway. My point is that these days I do not feel like I would be as inclined to jump into a fight and risk personal injury to do this again.
 
GreyZed said:
Havard said:
AndyBeech said:
Don't turn this into another cop bashing thread based on your opinion. It's bloody tedious. The guy was most likely speeding by the sounds of it, regardless of his status in society or whatever else. For all the copper knew he might have been some serial offender scrote driving without insurance/ license whatever. Who are you to say who should get fined and who shouldn't. Everyone knows the speed limit, if you decide to break it then if you get caught how can you complain?
And yes I've been caught speeding recently, bang to rights, annoying initially but my own fault ultimately, no big deal in the scheme of things.

And by the way, your last statement, if you genuinely would walk by if another human being was in trouble regardless of who it was then that says a lot about you to be honest.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Andy and my previous posts tried to explain that. Generally the opinion of a Police officer is trusted in court, but he/she has a duty to follow procedure. If you are brave enough to take this to court, you may prove that the officer made a mistake or didn't follow the correct procedure. The odds are against you but everyone has the right to challenge the system, especially if money isn't an object.

In my 7 years working with GMP, I saw many a case where a relatively small detail, swung the result completely. Everyone has an opinion on stuff like this but you will only know the lottery of a court room if you have the balls to pay for your time there. Even though I left the force, pretty "anti Police", I cannot agree with the comment about not assisting an officer in serious trouble. That is how anarchy starts.
H.
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For clarity "serious trouble" did not appear in my post.

In the past I have put myself in danger at least once to assist the Police, something that many would never do anyway. My point is that these days I do not feel like I would be as inclined to jump into a fight and risk personal injury to do this again.
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From this comment "but these days alas are more likely to turn away or walk on by even if an officer may be in need of help or in potential danger. Sad but true. :thumbsdown:"

I took it as "serious trouble". Difficult one these days. I for one would be unlucky enough to die a hero, trying to save a copper from some scrote. Leave my wife and kids fatherless / widowed just to be yesterday's chip paper. The relationship between the public and the Police has never been worse in my opinion.

They have become isolated and detached from communities and have taken the easy route with speed cameras to get massive revenue while offences such as burglary, rape, murder are now less likely to be stopped or detected afterwards. I got out as I felt we were wasting our time, we were recording crime instead of stopping it.

Anyway. I stand by my original post with the limited information we have. From my days, the gun that detects speed, struggled with multiple vehicles in quick succession. Maybe they are better these days but the OP has the right to gain more info and ultimately challenge the conviction.

H.
 
Thanks for all the input everyone, especially around the 6 month waiting period. I think it's an incredibly long time, past what is required. but I cant dispute the law...

Regarding the court question, I am in no way going to pursue this, as pointed out, the cost would be greater than any potential saving in my circumstances. They only way I'd end up in court is if that was the only option offered which is unlikely given the accused speed and my clean license.

My question regarding the evidence and burden of proof was down to curiosity. Heading massively out of the box, in a crown court for murder, the prosecution would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt to a jury. Granted speeding is a different ball game, but my thoughts were, how can the prosecution prove beyond resonable doubt that the laser was pointed at me, and without video footage or a second independant witness, that the speed recorded was mine. I understand that the law takes the side of a "trained" officer in this case, so why do officer where bodycams if their statement is gospel?

I'm not in anyway trying to bash the police, they do a great job, and my "no comment" shows I had no evidence to dispute the allegation. I'm just curious why a more watertight method of capturing speed isn't s requirement.
 
I think its a good question Liam-O. When I was last done for speeding I went to court 1 week before the six months was up. You will be treated as public enemy number one in the court, yet paradoxically it takes forever to get to court.

Out of interest, will you offence be recorded from the date of the offence or the date of the prosecution. Points are usually wiped from your licence after so many years, but when is the starting point?
 
DumfriesDik said:
I think its a good question Liam-O. When I was last done for speeding I went to court 1 week before the six months was up. You will be treated as public enemy number one in the court, yet paradoxically it takes forever to get to court.

Out of interest, will you offence be recorded from the date of the offence or the date of the prosecution. Points are usually wiped from your licence after so many years, but when is the starting point?
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From conviction in this case. If this was murder and you had already spent 6 months without bail, that would be taken into account with the jail sentence.

H.
 
Havard said:
DumfriesDik said:
I think its a good question Liam-O. When I was last done for speeding I went to court 1 week before the six months was up. You will be treated as public enemy number one in the court, yet paradoxically it takes forever to get to court.

Out of interest, will you offence be recorded from the date of the offence or the date of the prosecution. Points are usually wiped from your licence after so many years, but when is the starting point?
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From conviction in this case. If this was murder and you had already spent 6 months without bail, that would be taken into account with the jail sentence.

H.
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Look here...

https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/how-long-endorsements-stay-on-your-driving-licence

States from date of offence not conviction unless for drink driving/careless driving (ie something other than an SP?? speeding code)

Good luck OP!
 
UPDATE: The letter came through yesterday offering me a speed awareness course, obviously I'm taking it...
 
Liam-O said:
UPDATE: The letter came through yesterday offering me a speed awareness course, obviously I'm taking it...
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Make sure you do a hand brake turn in the car park - they love that :thumbsup:
 
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