Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperSport?

[B21]

In terms of the charts, because the scale is not starting from zero it exacerbates the differences. Your brain will automatically use the visual of the bars to compare, so if one looks ten times longer than the other, it takes ten times longer to do something. The point of charting is to help display data in a way it is more understandable and comparable, but by cutting the scale they change the comparison.

Here is the first chart on the website showing what looks like significant differences between the brands
Capture.JPG

Here is the actual data fully visualised with a full scale, does that now change your perception of how different the brands performance is
Picture1.png

They do this throughout their entire website. The funny thing is if you put the data into Excel and just auto chart, it replicates exactly what they have on their website. So what they are doing is pumping data in and just copy pasting without understanding firstly WHAT charts are actually for and secondly WHY they are doing what they are doing.

/endrant

One could reasonably argue that the power / skill / capability of humans is to able to differentiate fine levels of detail irrespective of the absolute scale…

To use your logic if we measured everything in degrees Kelvin and used zero as a baseline then my house temperature ranges from 290k to 293k…you’re argument based on scale and a chart whose axis pass through zero is that it is de minimis..however I would contend we perceive those 3 degrees change in 300 quite markedly…

Discuss?

 

[plenty]

What the chart based from zero does reveal is that the performance difference between good brands is marginal, and even something like a Nankang AS-2 and Goodride SA37 which some might dismiss as budget ditchfinders aren't actually that far behind.

Another proof point for why for many drivers there's little practical difference between top-flight UHP options (and let's be honest, most Z4 drivers who aren't B21 and Andy don't push hard).

 

[B21]

What the chart based from zero does reveal is that the performance difference between good brands is marginal, and even something like a Nankang AS-2 and Goodride SA37 which some might dismiss as budget ditchfinders aren't actually that far behind.

Another proof point for why for many drivers there's little practical difference between top-flight UHP options (and let's be honest, most Z4 drivers who aren't B21 and Andy don't push hard).

For the record I’m not suggesting that people should only buy premium brand tyres ..if their budget, priorities , skills, style of driving or demands don’t require or need those last few percentile points of capabilities then that’s their prerogative

After the OE run flats everything is a bonus

 

[coldel]

The point is, that visuals are only useful if they are presented in a way that adds something to the numbers. A good old data table can be just as, if not more, effective than a bar chart - you dont use bar charts just for the sake of it which is what a lot of writers and reviewer do simply because they think it makes things look better - context and reason for using it is important.

The reason I started from zero was not because I arbitrarily took zero, its because the data was measuring the time it took to complete the course of which you need to measure the range of data we are looking at. The car started at zero seconds and finished somewhere around 50 odd seconds, if you want a visual representation to show the true difference you show it from zero.

In the Kelvin example, again you need to understand why you would show 0-300K - is that because your house can range anywhere between those values? If so, and you could survive it and live within those temperatures, the chances are if one day it was 10 and then heated to 290, you wouldnt notice the difference if the following day it was 20 then heated up to 280 because the range is so wide. However as your body and its relationship with temperature in the house is more like 290K plus then charting that shows a difference.

The one and only reason the chart above in the website starts at 52 is because thats the biggest whole number below the quickest time - they put no thought into what they are trying to show, and why they are using a bar chart.

 

[coldel]

What the chart based from zero does reveal is that the performance difference between good brands is marginal, and even something like a Nankang AS-2 and Goodride SA37 which some might dismiss as budget ditchfinders aren't actually that far behind.

Another proof point for why for many drivers there's little practical difference between top-flight UHP options (and let's be honest, most Z4 drivers who aren't B21 and Andy don't push hard).

For the record I’m not suggesting that people should only buy premium brand tyres ..if their budget, priorities , skills, style of driving or demands don’t require or need those last few percentile points of capabilities then that’s their prerogative

After the OE run flats everything is a bonus

No neither am I looking across many metrics its clear some brands once you take into account all the variables will cumulatively be noticeably different to other brands, just because there are small differences in individual tests, they do all add up - the marginal gains idea.

 

[plenty]

As someone who draws charts for a living I'm secretly enjoying this thread diversion.

There are so many examples of bad visualisation, sometimes innocuous and often not. In an election year it's useful to keep this in mind.

(Example from 2019)

 

[sars]

In terms of the charts, because the scale is not starting from zero it exacerbates the differences. Your brain will automatically use the visual of the bars to compare, so if one looks ten times longer than the other, it takes ten times longer to do something. The point of charting is to help display data in a way it is more understandable and comparable, but by cutting the scale they change the comparison.

Here is the first chart on the website showing what looks like significant differences between the brands
Capture.JPG

Here is the actual data fully visualised with a full scale, does that now change your perception of how different the brands performance is
Picture1.png

They do this throughout their entire website. The funny thing is if you put the data into Excel and just auto chart, it replicates exactly what they have on their website. So what they are doing is pumping data in and just copy pasting without understanding firstly WHAT charts are actually for and secondly WHY they are doing what they are doing.

/endrant

One could reasonably argue that the power / skill / capability of humans is to able to differentiate fine levels of detail irrespective of the absolute scale…

To use your logic if we measured everything in degrees Kelvin and used zero as a baseline then my house temperature ranges from 290k to 293k…you’re argument based on scale and a chart whose axis pass through zero is that it is de minimis..however I would contend we perceive those 3 degrees change in 300 quite markedly…

Discuss?

This and you beat me to it So its not about them having no statistical knowledge, it about displaying the data in such a way that it differentiates more clearly the relative difference between the tyres. There is so little difference, as a %, between the big brands, that choosing any of them will be great for 95% of road users and then we are back to my first post: -

For me the important qualities are wet grip, comfort, noise and rolling resistance, therefore list the qualities that are important to you and decide on the tyre that best meets those requirements.

But to do that you need empirical data, not some tyre marketing teams advert, so it is not critical that the origin isn't zero because if wet handling/breaking is best for me, then the SportContacts is the way to go

 

[coldel]

Yes been years in jobs at data companies and the like, the amount of utter rubbish you see just like that Lib Dem chart which I have no idea what its trying to visually demonstrate there is no scale no axis no context nothing, so many example like that where style over substance prevails

The Tyre review chart is utter rubbish too as it easily fools the brain into thinking there is a big difference in that measure, when there is statistically speaking no difference in that variable across at least the top four brands - you could probably repeat the test time and again as the tyres wear and the top three or four interchange order.

 

[plenty]

The Tyre review chart is utter rubbish too as it easily fools the brain into thinking there is a big difference in that measure, when there is statistically speaking no difference in that variable across at least the top four brands - you could probably repeat the test time and again as the tyres wear and the top three or four interchange order.

I mostly ignore professional tests myself for the above reasons, although crowdsourced scores from large numbers of reviews on places like tyrereviews do hold some sway.

It makes me laugh when you read the magazine reviews and the prose describes differences as if they were night and day, when in reality the margins between top brands are so slim and there so many other variables that come in play that could equally impact the results, such as pressures, the weather, and the quality of the road surfaces. On the latter point for example, if you've ever driven hard on the 'brown' roads in Wales you'll know how much more grippy in the wet and dry they are compared with typical black tarmac in England and Scotland.

If you're someone who can tell the difference between +/- 2 PSI or a half-tank of fuel versus empty then maybe the marginal differences will resonate, but most of us can't.

 

[coldel]

The Tyre review chart is utter rubbish too as it easily fools the brain into thinking there is a big difference in that measure, when there is statistically speaking no difference in that variable across at least the top four brands - you could probably repeat the test time and again as the tyres wear and the top three or four interchange order.

I mostly ignore professional tests myself for the above reasons, although crowdsourced scores from large numbers of reviews on places like tyrereviews do hold some sway.

It makes me laugh when you read the magazine reviews and the prose describes differences as if they were night and day, when in reality the margins between top brands are so slim and there so many other variables that come in play that could equally impact the results, such as pressures, the weather, and the quality of the road surfaces. On the latter point for example, if you've ever driven hard on the 'brown' roads in Wales you'll know how much more grippy in the wet and dry they are compared with typical black tarmac in England and Scotland.

Yes I agree to a degree on the crowdsourcing, but it has to be relevant, if Michelin Primacy got good scores on Tyre Review I wouldnt put some on my Ferrari (if I had one) as the scores are likely from cars like Nissan Qashqais and the like

And yes the pro testers are probably amazing at testing the minute differences, but 95% of the country would never notice the difference nor ever push the car to that level. I was in a research job a few years back and we had professional taste testers for new food products. It was amazing what they could do, there would be 8-10 of them in for the day we would give them something to try and then get them to score between 1-100 on things like sourness, saltiness etc. more often than not they would all score within a couple of percentage points of each other without knowing what each other has put. The general public however would be scatter gunning all over the place

 

[plenty]

There are folks who will pay £2,000 for a plate of sushi and others who spend tens of thousands for loudspeaker cable, so for some the fine margins clearly matter.

Something else to point out is that more grip isn't always better if you enjoy pushing the limits. A 35i or 40i probably deserves top-class rubber especially if it's tuned and you like to boot it in places like Scotland or Spain, but folks with less grunt and/or who like to explore the limits at achievable road speeds in southern England may actually be better off with lesser tyres, and not just to save money. Someone on this forum commented that their Z4M was less fun to drive with state-of-the-art UHP tyres because you lose all of the playfulness of the rear in the dry at least, and I'd agree with that.

 

[The.Analyst]

There are folks who will pay £2,000 for a plate of sushi and others who spend tens of thousands for loudspeaker cable, so for some the fine margins clearly matter.

Something else to point out is that more grip isn't always better if you enjoy pushing the limits. A 35i or 40i probably deserves top-class rubber especially if it's tuned and you like to boot it in places like Scotland or Spain, but folks with less grunt and/or who like to explore the limits at achievable road speeds in southern England may actually be better off with lesser tyres, and not just to save money. Someone on this forum commented that their Z4M was less fun to drive with state-of-the-art UHP tyres because you lose all of the playfulness of the rear in the dry at least, and I'd agree with that.

That’s very true MX5 anyone ?

 

[sars]

I'd love to know whether it is engineering, the design team or sales/marketing that decides how big/how wide the tyres and wheels are during the initial design process. IMHO the g29 is over tyred in regards to width, 255 front & 275 rear makes a comfortable ride not and also the cornering ability takes some of the fun out, In the dry, I have yet to reach the limit during a corner where oversteer has become necessary.

In my 1974 MG Midget it happened all the time, such fun

 

[B21]

I'd love to know whether it is engineering, the design team or sales/marketing that decides how big/how wide the tyres and wheels are during the initial design process. IMHO the g29 is over tyred in regards to width, 255 front & 275 rear makes a comfortable ride not and also the cornering ability takes some of the fun out, In the dry, I have yet to reach the limit during a corner where oversteer has become necessary.

In my 1974 MG Midget it happened all the time, such fun

Going off topic but BMW goes out of its way to make sure the cars don’t oversteer come what may..lots of rear camber, over size boots, lots of straight line biased geometry, very conservative stability control…a safe driver is a happy driver

 

[flybobbie]

I think front tyres too wide.
Reminds me the few time i've driven go kart on cold tyres.

 

[flybobbie]

In terms of the charts, because the scale is not starting from zero it exacerbates the differences. Your brain will automatically use the visual of the bars to compare, so if one looks ten times longer than the other, it takes ten times longer to do something. The point of charting is to help display data in a way it is more understandable and comparable, but by cutting the scale they change the comparison.

Here is the first chart on the website showing what looks like significant differences between the brands
Capture.JPG

Here is the actual data fully visualised with a full scale, does that now change your perception of how different the brands performance is
Picture1.png

They do this throughout their entire website. The funny thing is if you put the data into Excel and just auto chart, it replicates exactly what they have on their website. So what they are doing is pumping data in and just copy pasting without understanding firstly WHAT charts are actually for and secondly WHY they are doing what they are doing.

/endrant

Looks like global warming data.

 

[alscoob]

Well, just to add to this.. have rum the Goodyear Asy 3's & 5's in standard 19" sizes on the wifes E89 over the years (Non Runflat) and need new rears while the wheels are being refurbed. Seems that SuperSport is the only option at the moment in the 255x30x19 so going to stick them on and see how they go & can let ou know.

Was thinking of going to other manufacturer but then with 6mm left on the fronts didn't make sense, so will wait until next time it needs tyres to do that.

 

[simnew]

Have to say I change from 19s (296 with multiple cracks) to 18’s with Goodyear Eagle F1 Asym 6. And have to say the car is so much better. They are great tyres and very grippy in the wet. Not quite the same as the ones you’re looking at, but I have the same on my 440i GC and didn’t bother going to winter tyres this year, they are that good. Different league to Pirelli p Zero at least in winter conditions

 

[Pondy]

Ooh another tyre thread....
Taken to another level.
What a load of bollox. :roll:

If Lewis Hamilton was doing these multiple 'online tyre reviews' or was a member on here, then I would take some notice. Otherwise it's all amateurs giving perceived advice based on God knows what.

"I am a superb driver, according to me, and the (insert make here) are the best tyres ever in my expert opinion ". It's that ridiculous TBH.

I agree with coldel regarding the review graphs. Misleading definitely. Not that I take any notice of internet tyre reviews, and even less of customer tyre reviews (cos none of them are qualified to pass judgement).

"Pays your money, take your choice" has never been more pertinent than to selecting tyres, no matter what others say.

I bet the 'premium' tyre manufacturers rub their hands with glee when a tyre thread comes up (every hour) on a car forum.

No offence intended (except maybe one).

 

[sars]

[ref]Pondrew[/ref], so by what metric do you choose your tyres, best value or the one with the nicest tread pattern, if it's the former on what basis do you analyse value? If it's by personal recommendation then it has the same merits as all the other punter reviews, all are subjective except you know the person making it, and should be taken with a large dose of salt, however the actual comparative tests by tyrereviews.com are quite useful.

But we argue this every tyre thread........