First MHD Logging results (OEM BMW map)

[stuartinzg]

Excellent response, thanks a lot!

I wasn't getting a lot of feedback on the n54 MHD topic because everyone has probably seen this a thousand times before and I'm not a single turbo conversion running e85 fuel!

I'll check realoem but as far as I was aware the cp is the same except one extra hose which extends it (maybe wrong).

I can imagine there would be problems with a plastic pipe and high boost. Not to mention the climate in the states probably contributes to this issue. Whereas in the UK you aren't dealing with 40c outside (although I am here).

I will log everything and pull my data from there now, rather than trying to guess. If you don't mind assisting when I post it up then it won't be a case of the one eyed leading the blind

Many thanks!

 

[stuartinzg]

By the way thought I'd mention but in the thread you have posted he stated:

"This is a R&D car so, i do not recommend anyone running this type of power on a stock E89 Z4. I was simply looking for the limits on the E89 Z4. IAT were crazy high that I had to put in 3 gals of E85 to mitigate for the high temps and no mod upgrades.

The type of power will sit well with an upgraded intercooler and and upgraded air intake box. However the most critical is the fuel quality

I have the ER E89 Z4 kits with FMIC, CP, and BOV on order, some inlets, UUB SSK, AR DPs, and Ive already got the ECS CF intake"

So he pretty much confirms all the upgrades I mentioned previously as a requirement for that power level (395whp) and it all makes sense. Although 395whp is high, not even sure my dct OEM clutch pack will take that-would need to ensure torque was capped. From what I've read the earlier boxes are 600nm, but the later getrag units are now 700nm and shared among with the m3/m4/m6.

For 400whp the Stock intercooler can't keep up, big pressure drops-the Wagner evo2 will flow substantially more, without added lag and pressure drop. charge pipe (you have practical experience with it now, are you able to log boost leaks?), bov rather than recirculation(apparently venting to atmosphere is better than trying to force the air into an already busy inlet where you need smooth air. If its already on much higher boost it may be less efficient to use recirc.-apparently). And the downpipes changing to racecars is an obvious one.

So with all that in mind a conservative 370-390hp on stock parts(+30-50hp) should be OK in limited doses. Just watch the iat (which i can do in real time on the MHD app).

 

[stuartinzg]

I'm also told that my rough idle could be that I need my inlet valves cleaned (commonly done with walnut blasting).
Will look to get that checked, although not sure of any local people here who do that. If it needs doing I'll ask around.

 

[stuartinzg]

All the VD runs I've done have come out around 360whp, so that puts me around 410bhp.

Did a quick search for VD, assumed you meant virtual dyno - found the app and loaded the data. What an excellent app

It didn't have the 35iS so I put together a custom profile, but for this screenshot I just changed the data to the iS.

This is my VD - might the HP explain why it pulled throttle as it hit target? Seems quite healthy numbers? I'm getting 312whp before a map-that would put me around 360 hp after 15% losses - would explain why I pulled slightly on a new 991 in Germany

 

[R.E92]

To be honest N54tech isn't the place to post unless you have a JB4.
The forum was created by Terry Burger as a tech support forum for JB4 users so you may get a cold shoulder there.

E90post is a great place to start but don't trust anyone who stands to make financial gain from their presence such as vendors as they are there purely to take your money. There are exceptions in the form of Ken and Dimitri, both started out as regular users and have transitioned to pro tuners but still seem more interested in furthering the platform than lining their pockets.

BimmerBoost has some great topics but really suffers from Sticky's (the owner) bad attitude and some very shady vendor practices. Basically vendors regularly screw people (Vargas for example) and since they pay Sticky money they get the privilege of deleting posts critical of their product. If you ever want aftermarket turbos steer clear of Vargas and RB as they both act like children and go with Pure or Hexon.

Regarding the power and torque that your DCT can hold I wouldn't worry until you start upgrading turbos. I've also never heard of the DCT box changing though, I thought all E89 Z4 and E9x M3 cars had the same box.
The only way you will screw your box up is by using a JB4 or a flash that has incorrect parameters for a DCT car. Some people are keen on using SPXX maps on their cars, that's fine on a slushbox or manual but they aren't configured for a DCT transmission.


Regarding the rough idle. There's a very long list of things on this engine that cause such symptoms and plenty of people have thrown money at the problem and not seen an improvement.
A walnut blast is a good idea on any N54 above 50k miles and it's not all that expensive, around £200 at a dealer. If that doesn't solve the rough idle then you want to check your injectors aren't leaking as that was what caused mine. But beyond that it's anyone's guess, coils, plugs, o2 sensors and air leaks have all been quoted as causes to peoples rough running. It could even be several of them at once.
How rough is the idle exactly? If it's a minor blip every 10 seconds then the best thing is just to ignore it.

I don't mind looking at any logs you have. It only takes seconds to check through them.

 

[stuartinzg]

Yep all good points and I have noticed exactly what you said on the forums.

The mods I will do will be very limited - the car is great as it is, but I wanted to tweak to make it as good as it can be (OEM+ style, like my recent mods), hence LSD and increasing the breathing (basically going FBO). That's my limit.

I'm looking at self-assembly Caterham as my next project - I'd rather put my money there because I can then track the car local to me.

Thanks for the feedback re: idle. Perhaps as part of the FBO i'll solve the issue as I will also clean the intake valves, replace the charge pipe with metal rather than plastic, and during that process check all the connections, ensure nothing is leaking - etc.

It's a difficult one to describe, it just feels like vibration coming through, I can't see the revs dipping like a misfire, it just isn't anything like the old 6/8 cylinders from the 80's which I was around a lot a few years ago. You could put a coin on the engines and it wouldnt move-just feels like a step backwards. Maybe it's the downsides of the double vanos/camshaft set up - designed for performance rather than smoothness, could just be the engine's "thing"- but I distinctly remember 10+ years ago being in a 325i E30 and that idle was smooth as butter, you couldn't feel a single bump on idle, no vibrations and the idle was absolutely fixed solid. Just a bit disappointed as it bugs me every time I drive it!

Another problem is that it was 5 years ago since I drove a 35i in Munich, I wasn't focused on the idle! I need to go in another brand new 35iS to see the difference.

 

[stuartinzg]

I've also never heard of the DCT box changing though, I thought all E89 Z4 and E9x M3 cars had the same box.

AFAIK, it used to be the GETRAG Powershift® 7DCI600 TRANSMISSION, which the M3 also used (correct), but that is no longer produced, and Getrag only advertise the 7DCI700, which is shown here, in a wider range of cars, including the current Z4.

http://www.getrag.com/media/products/powershift/7dci700/20150915_GETRAG_Press_information_7DCI700.pdf

If you go here, you'll see the 600 is no longer in the list

http://www.getrag.com/en/products/powershift/Dual_Clutch_Transmissions.html

Click: 7DCI700

Used in M3, M4, M6 and Z4
http://www.getrag.com/media/products/powershift/7dci700/7DCI700~2.pdf

Interestingly enough the Ferrari California used the 7DCI600 and owners reported a lot of failures. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/california/383601-dct-failure-3.html

Perhaps Getrag simply upgraded the box and all cars which previously used the 600, now get the 700? Whereas Ferrari no longer use it?

That means for Z4 owners, the newer models with the 700 box provides more tuning potential without changing clutch packs. Mine is a Oct 2010 build, so I'll be on the older box.

 

[R.E92]

You can raise the idle with MHD which may help. Try 800rpm.

My car runs smooth since a walnut blast, new injectors, plugs, o2 sensors and coils. Still not as smooth as an old 6cyl but I think that's due to emissions and efficiency improvements.
You can jump in a brand new 35is and still feel a rough idle. I think the only people that notice it are petrolheads, most customers have no clue how an engine should run hence the reason so many people drive diesels!

 

[stuartinzg]

Yep, they switched the box for the Ferrari completely after using the 600, now it uses the 750 and only BMW uses the upgraded 700.

http://www.superformance.co.uk/california/oil.html

Ferrari California

Engine Oil
11.0 Ltrs.
Transaxle, manual 6/1
4.6 Ltrs.
Transaxle, semi-automatic, clutch part
Getrag 7DCL750
7.8-9.2 Ltrs.
Transaxle, semi-automatic, transmission part
Getrag 7DCL750 7/1
3.5 Ltrs

 

[stuartinzg]

My car runs smooth since a walnut blast, new injectors, plugs, o2 sensors and coils.

Great... well I've done the plugs!

I guess I'll keep trying in order of cheapness

Did you see that BMW are now using new suppliers for Coils - did you buy those ones or same as you had before? The new coils are apparently much better quality (I wrote another post about it).

I'll investigate the idle speed, thanks

 

[R.E92]

I've also never heard of the DCT box changing though, I thought all E89 Z4 and E9x M3 cars had the same box.

AFAIK, it used to be the GETRAG Powershift® 7DCI600 TRANSMISSION, which the M3 also used (correct), but that is no longer produced, and Getrag only advertise the 7DCI700, which is shown here, in a wider range of cars, including the current Z4.

http://www.getrag.com/media/products/powershift/7dci700/20150915_GETRAG_Press_information_7DCI700.pdf

If you go here, you'll see the 600 is no longer in the list

http://www.getrag.com/en/products/powershift/Dual_Clutch_Transmissions.html

Click: 7DCI700

Used in M3, M4, M6 and Z4
http://www.getrag.com/media/products/powershift/7dci700/7DCI700~2.pdf

Interestingly enough the Ferrari California used the 7DCI600 and owners reported a lot of failures. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/california/383601-dct-failure-3.html

Perhaps Getrag simply upgraded the box and all cars which previously used the 600, now get the 700? Whereas Ferrari no longer use it?

That means for Z4 owners, the newer models with the 700 box provides more tuning potential without changing clutch packs. Mine is a Oct 2010 build, so I'll be on the older box.

I did read a lot about the Ferrari failures before buying my car but after reading through forums I've never really seen a DCT box in a BMW break as a result of increased torque.

I usually rely on realoem for parts information on BMWs. It looks like the same transmission is still being used on the new cars.
2009 35i: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=LM72-EUR-03-2009-E89-BMW-Z4_35i&diagId=28_0000
2009 35is: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=LM12-EUR-09-2009-E89-BMW-Z4_35is&diagId=28_0000
2015 35is: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=LM12-EUR-09-2015-E89-BMW-Z4_35is&diagId=28_0000

It may be that BMW have kept with the older gearbox and Getrag are still producing it but just not advertising it. I would imagine they need to keep producing it to guarantee availability for future spare parts.

 

[stuartinzg]

True but if the components only changed internally and BMW see the box as a "single unit", then it's perfectly feasible for the part number according to BMW to remain the same, and any that break are upgraded. When a box breaks BMW can't fix it and don't even offer a fix, it gets sent away to Getrag - this whole process could be completely transparent to BMW. I can't imagine they would keep producing a unit which is less reliable/capable than their 700. I would bet a round of beers if you took apart a new box it would be the 700 with the older one the 600 -that's why Getrag have the Z4 down as 700 on their website. But when my car was made, 700 wasn't available.

 

[stuartinzg]

That website also shows 3 different boxes for the same car

01 Dual-clutch transmission GS7D36SG - BMT 1 07/2012 07/2013 28007640956
01 Dual-clutch transmission GS7D36SG - BE2 1 07/2013 03/2015 28008605207
01 Dual-clutch transmission GS7D36SG - BE2 1 03/2015 28008647464

3 different part numbers, and each one says "superseeded by X... interchangeable"

Something definitely going on here

 

[stuartinzg]

BTW This is a nice upgrade for our box:
http://www.sspperformance.com/bmw-dct-gs7d36sg/bmw-dct-clutch/bmw-750-ft-lbs-torque-clutch-package.html

 

[R.E92]

My car runs smooth since a walnut blast, new injectors, plugs, o2 sensors and coils.

Great... well I've done the plugs!

I guess I'll keep trying in order of cheapness

Did you see that BMW are now using new suppliers for Coils - did you buy those ones or same as you had before? The new coils are apparently much better quality (I wrote another post about it).

I'll investigate the idle speed, thanks

Kept with Bosch coils as I got a good price while they were on sale at ECP. The Bosch coils that I removed were still working fine but I decided to replace them purely because of OCD. I had new injectors and plugs so just felt compelled to buy new coils!

With the gearbox I don't think you will be able to get the thing to slip if you keep to a flash only tune. Since we don't get ethanol here and I'm guessing you aren't going to be using meth your power will be capped by octane rather than what the gearbox can hold.

If you get a pro tune you can ask that the tuner doesn't go overboard on the midrange torque which seriously helps the clutch. My advice would be to forget about using launch control though, it seems to really hammer the gearbox.

 

[stuartinzg]

Ref original topic: I'll go do another 3rd gear pull on the way to IKEA later, with the cylinder 1 timing included as you suggested and report back

 

[stuartinzg]

My car runs smooth since a walnut blast, new injectors, plugs, o2 sensors and coils.

Great... well I've done the plugs!

I guess I'll keep trying in order of cheapness

Did you see that BMW are now using new suppliers for Coils - did you buy those ones or same as you had before? The new coils are apparently much better quality (I wrote another post about it).

I'll investigate the idle speed, thanks

Kept with Bosch coils as I got a good price while they were on sale at ECP. The Bosch coils that I removed were still working fine but I decided to replace them purely because of OCD. I had new injectors and plugs so just felt compelled to buy new coils!

With the gearbox I don't think you will be able to get the thing to slip if you keep to a flash only tune. Since we don't get ethanol here and I'm guessing you aren't going to be using meth your power will be capped by octane rather than what the gearbox can hold.

If you get a pro tune you can ask that the tuner doesn't go overboard on the midrange torque which seriously helps the clutch. My advice would be to forget about using launch control though, it seems to really hammer the gearbox.

These are the new coils used by BMW http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84188
New BMW ignition coil part number 12138657273 is now Eldor not Bosch
"There is dramatically a BIG difference in quality between the Bosch/BMW vs the Eldor/BMW coil"

Must be a reason they changed ?

Good point midrange torque. My power will be max sensible values for an FBO (410~ about what you have).

By the way, you have no info about your car on the forum - do you have any threads? Is it a Z4? I see your username is E92

 

[R.E92]

Great... well I've done the plugs!

I guess I'll keep trying in order of cheapness

Did you see that BMW are now using new suppliers for Coils - did you buy those ones or same as you had before? The new coils are apparently much better quality (I wrote another post about it).

I'll investigate the idle speed, thanks

Kept with Bosch coils as I got a good price while they were on sale at ECP. The Bosch coils that I removed were still working fine but I decided to replace them purely because of OCD. I had new injectors and plugs so just felt compelled to buy new coils!

With the gearbox I don't think you will be able to get the thing to slip if you keep to a flash only tune. Since we don't get ethanol here and I'm guessing you aren't going to be using meth your power will be capped by octane rather than what the gearbox can hold.

If you get a pro tune you can ask that the tuner doesn't go overboard on the midrange torque which seriously helps the clutch. My advice would be to forget about using launch control though, it seems to really hammer the gearbox.

These are the new coils used by BMW http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84188
New BMW ignition coil part number 12138657273 is now Eldor not Bosch
"There is dramatically a BIG difference in quality between the Bosch/BMW vs the Eldor/BMW coil"

Must be a reason they changed ?

Good point midrange torque. My power will be max sensible values for an FBO (410~ about what you have).

By the way, you have no info about your car on the forum - do you have any threads? Is it a Z4? I see your username is E92

BMW went Bosch originally, then Delphi now Eldor. I imagine they want to improve reliability so the new parts should be better but I got the Bosch coils for £14 each and the Eldor ones were up at £22~.
One member used some uber quality Okada coils on his N54 at £1000 (from memory, not 100% sure on price) for a set and said he felt they made no difference so I just stuck with what I knew worked.

I had a 320d when I joined the forum in search of my Z4 hence the E92. I've got a Z4 35i now. I'm not really one for taking photos and the like, I haven't washed my car for 3 months and from the exterior it's just a silver Z4 with CSL reps so nothing worthy of a photoshoot
Funnily enough, even with 3 months worth of crap stuck to it I get people commenting on the looks of the car, quite high praise for the E89!

 

[35i-Nut]

I finally got around to buying the MHD Logging licence for the MHD N54 app in the Android store.

After much faffing with adapters which communicate to the car properly, extension cables, OTG cables and a Micro USB to USB-C adapter, plus the Brodit setup! I can finally get it talking to the car.

I thought I would see how the engine is currently operating, lots more information here than I fully understand - but plan to research more and see what it all means - also posted on N54tech to see what the tuners have to say about the running rich/lumpy idle. Perhaps the 3rd gear pull will show something. No errors in the DME, 98 ron, recent service+new plugs.

Link to all the data(I think around 15 different readings)/interactive graph: http://datazap.me/u/stuartinzg/3rd-gear-runs?log=1&data=4-21

Ive been doing lots of reading up on the MHD flasher on the other american forums , big following for it in the US , seems its taking over from COBB for the prefered tuning module

Could you please provide some further info , or links to the various cables you have bought to get this up and running

Ive read certain cables dont work , would be nice to buy all the right leads first time around before I start tinkering :lol:

 

[stuartinzg]

Ive been doing lots of reading up on the MHD flasher on the other american forums , big following for it in the US , seems its taking over from COBB for the prefered tuning module

Could you please provide some further info , or links to the various cables you have bought to get this up and running

Ive read certain cables dont work , would be nice to buy all the right leads first time around before I start tinkering :lol:

Sure, sorry for my late reply.

I'm really happy with this latest pull, 329hp~ estimated which is around 378-380 at the crank. I didn't bother going to 7000, changed at 6500 or lower I think.

I've managed to capture timing too, so I'll pop that up to datazap.