Euthanasia

N

Nondizzyblonde

Senior member
 Leicestershire
Totally not car related, hence posted in The Lounge. As everyone on this forum loves a good discussion and most certainly has an opinion - here is an article that caught my eye recently on the controversial topic of euthanasia. In Belgium recently a transsexual was allowed to have an assisted suicide as his gender reassignment surgery went wrong, and he felt that the mental anguish of this made it impossible for him to continue living. On further reading it transpired that in Belgium, unlike Switzerland, you do not have to administer your own poison, and euthanasia is available for those suffering psychological as well as physical illnesses. 2% of annual deaths in Belgium are now due to euthanasia.
What do people think ? Has Belgium gone too far ? Just interested in what people have to say as am planning as using this with my uni students in a discussion on ethics.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24373107
 
if you don't want to live, you should be allowed to die with some dignity.

death is something that no one can escape, I don't really see why people get upset if someone wants to end their life on their own terms.
 
the cueball said:
if you don't want to live, you should be allowed to die with some dignity.
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The question is not that easy, it can be a fine line between 'do you want to die with dignity' or are you feeling pressure to get out of the way so that you don't become a burden on your husband/wife/children (ignoring the distinction between that feeling being real or perceived)

I'm not against euthanasia per se, in fact I can think of several people that I'd like to see avail themselves of the facility should it become available, it just requires the correct checks and balances to ensure that people are making the choice freely without undue pressure or coercion...
 
Tough subject.

As I'm a Christian. I don't believe in it. Yet as a Christian. My Bible also says that I must not judge either. Therefore. As long as any euthanasia law has checks and balances to prevent a snap decision. In addition. Those laws should also have a facility to notify and include family members in any pre-suicide counseling. Then I don't see why it can't be available.
 
The ethicality (is that even a word?) of Euthanasia itself in my eyes is not the problem.
It is the fear of abuse through intimidation, or misguidance, or just plain abuse that is the worry.
Anyone physically capable of committing suicide can do it.
Being led down a "legitimate" path may mean people who are not independantly minded may just go along with it.
Does it come with an IQ test to say who is and isn't capable of making the decision?
As always with questions of ethics, there are also financial implications. Life insurance? Inheritence? Greed?
 
During the last war the Special Operations Service (Executive?) were issued with suicide tablets. So 'theoretically' the state has no ethical objection. I would take a libertarian position, a little blue pill over the counter would be problematic but people should be allowed to be the masters of their own destiny. It wouldn't be that hard to provide carbon monoxide, a mask, and a bed, for a small fee.


There would be places we could save money too. Why not make life mean life and offer a pill to shorten it? Ian Brady wants to die and we don't allow it. That strikes me as being cruel. Let the scum kill themselves.
 
As for pressurising aged aunts into killing themselves. There will be people that would do that. The question is how many and can it be prevented?
 
Finisterre said:
As for pressurising aged aunts into killing themselves. There will be people that would do that. The question is how many and can it be prevented?
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Doesn't matter how many... they need protecting, it may be you next...

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestierte.

Martin Niemöller
 
Okay say it is me.

I have spent time in a cancer ward, the screaming in the night was distressing. Is my life really worth more than ending the terminal suffering in a dignified way for thousands of people each year?

I am not so sure.

There are always costs and benefits, no system is perfect, there will be grey areas. I am convinced that the current system is both cruel and ethically questionable. What right do we have to impose our values on others?
 
Finisterre said:
Okay say it is me.

I have spent time in a cancer ward, the screaming in the night was distressing. Is my life really worth more than ending the terminal suffering in a dignified way for thousands of people each year?

I am not so sure.

There are always costs and benefits, no system is perfect, there will be grey areas. I am convinced that the current system is both cruel and ethically questionable. What right do we have to impose our values on others?
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When I said 'it may be you next', I didn't meant that you may be one who truly wants to end it all. I meant that one day you, or I, may be on the receiving end of pressure/emotional blackmail etc. from those who stand to either benefit from our 'departure' or be inconvenienced by our continued existence

I'm not an advocate of the 'life for life's sake' school of thought, I believe that life with constant pain or life without 'quality of life' can be an unbearable burden on some people and I would support any moves that allowed them to (legally) take steps to rectify the situation - if that was what they wished to do - but, and it's a big 'but', in order to support such a system, I would also have to be satisfied that safeguards were in place to prevent abuse of the facility.
 
Sorry if this is considered inappropriate, but quite a few years back I started a conversation with a black friend of mine about what I thought was Euthanasia. I basically said I thought it should be allowed and I did not know what all the fuss was about. He suddenly got vey angry and aggressive towards me which I really wasn't expecting. Fortunately before my head was pounded into the ground another friend quickly pointed out that I had incorrectly said genocide and not euthanasia. :oops: :oops:
 
Nondizzyblonde said:
Just interested in what people have to say as am planning as using this with my uni students .
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24373107
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Really? Let me know how you get on, I could do with some of this in my work place. :evil:
 
PerryGunn said:
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestierte.

Martin Niemöller
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For those that want the English version, as it is worth reading...

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to protest.
 
I am not sure it really applies. It is suggesting that we should look after our neighbours and community. See past the labels. But as allowing people to die like dogs would be an improvement I wonder who it is we fear. At the moment it seems that we assume the worst. That our fellow citizens are venal, cruel, vile. Well some of them are, see the Baby P case. But the vast majority bring up children with love and compassion. Why would we assume that helping each other off our mortal coils would be any different? Mainly successful and sometimes fraught..

The question is whether the whole community would generally benefit.
 
PerryGunn said:
I'm not an advocate of the 'life for life's sake' school of thought, I believe that life with constant pain or life without 'quality of life' can be an unbearable burden on some people and I would support any moves that allowed them to (legally) take steps to rectify the situation - if that was what they wished to do - but, and it's a big 'but', in order to support such a system, I would also have to be satisfied that safeguards were in place to prevent abuse of the facility.
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That's really my outlook too.

I think we (humans) value quantity of life over quality... except when it comes to pets, which people choose to put down because "they were in too much pain"

I've just had to go through losing someone close to me of cancer (3rd one in 3 years), and they couldn't walk, talk, eat, dress etc themselves, but some of the family "hoped they would last another week" because it would be hard to lose them...

I used to say, I hope they go today, to stop their pain and suffering...

I guess it all depends on who it is, how much you really love them and if you have been through the pain of watching someone waste away to nothing, or indeed have an accident which prevents them living their life the way they want to.
 
Suicide via non organised means is risky, can be painful and has a connotation with failure

we now seem to be able to keep people alive for a long time, whether you want it or not - and it isnt the value of the life or the desire of the individual or the family that drives the decision, its a blanket refusal to accept that death is an inevitability that is sometimes desired and the best outcome

I wonder how many people would take an easy route if it were socially acceptable

Some old people starve themselves as its the only way out they can find, some stop taking treatment. I wonder how many failed attempts there are at certain demographics

Neither of those options have dignity or even seem to value the sanctity of life.

Euthanasia can only become socially acceptable if we consider it. The concept of it being misused by the state or relatives seems odd to me, and I would imagine that a certain amount of thought would help to ensure that it truly is the desire of the individual

When its my time, i would like a choice

I dont know that Belgium and Switzerland has it right, and I cant point to a single thing that they need to change ether, but they have taken the first step and that means that they can have a mature fact based dialogue.

I understand religion's view on this and I do respect their opinion. For the non religious world, I think options are the way forward
 
Hmmmmmmm how long before a government makes the size of the population fit the job market? Or the amount of hospital beds , parking spaces.....the list goes on and on,
or makes it socially unacceptable to be ill or jobless
 
I'm with PerryGunn & the cueball. When you see someone you love waste away before your eyes and you know it's just a matter of time, the phases "you wouldn't treat a dog like that" springs to mind and that pretty much says it all. Although I do agree with others that it's imperative there are checks and balances.
 
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