Engine Ticking Noise Update.

[MerBrook]

Just a quick update on the engine ticking noise that concerned me the over the weekend. Thanks to the advice given by MHZ4C I tried the engine bleed procedure and this appears to have been successful . Although I do wonder that once you have the problem with the HVA's you have it for good, does any body know? Anyway once again thanks for the advice.

 

[Nova2k7]

My 3.0 m54 is tapping like a good one. What's this bleed thing that you speak of?

 

[Smartbear]

My 3.0 m54 is tapping like a good one. What's this bleed thing that you speak of?

It's meant to silence the hydraulic lifter tapping that the n52 engined cars can suffer from, think it just purges the lifter with plenty of oil when it's held at fast idle for 15mins or so....
Regards

 

[MHZ4C]

Hi MerBrook,

Good to hear you that you have some improvement!

I looked in to this issue a lot before buying a Z4, as it was one of the few issues with the N52 - it is a pretty robust and reliable engine.

As I understand it, all N52 engines with the older style cylinder head (Pre 2008) are prone to this issue, as it relates to oil draining from the head and not fully lubing up again, hence the noice coming from dry HVAs. So based on this, any Z4 sat for long periods with only short trips inbetween (in which the oil does not reach operating temp) could in theory experience this.
As to whether it is doing damage is heavily debated. BMW did offer replacement HVAs under warranty and even new cylinder heads (with a non-return valve to prevent the head from losing all oil when sat) in rare cases. So there must be something in it. But I don't think the noise is a result of damage already done, more a characteristic of the engine. If the problem resulted from worn HVAs then I wouldn't expect the bleed procedure to make any difference.

In practice I've not had it (yet). When I first got my car I was in it all the time. Now it often sits for a week at a time. It's still loved though, I jut took up cycling for fitness.
However, when I do use the car I take it for a good run, and never let it idle cold, esp in sub 0°C weather, e.g. when deicing - I use cold water and go, or bike!).
Cold idling would be a prime way of starving the HVAs leading to the noise as the oil is thickest and hardest to pump around the cylinder head. I'm not a mechanic - maybe avoiding cold idling is OTT but the handbook advises to avoid it too.

I think the oil grade is important too. 0W being thin enough at cold temps to lube the HVAs. Perhaps 5W is not so mobile around the cylinder head on cold starts, esp. sub 0°C. I'm not sure whether the worst cases of the noise result from very infrequent usage, and very short trips leading to regular journeys with cold oil. Even then I'm not sure if the noise is leading to worn HVAs, and if that wear in turn makes the noise louder or more likely / frequent.

If the bleed procedure works, and remains good with normal use (i.e. not too long sat after repeated short cold runs), then I doubt there is anything significant wrong.

 

[jamesgarbett]

How do you carry out the bleed procedure?

 

[srhutch]

As MHZ4C says the sound you are hearing isnt due to damage done (yet). TBH I doubt the bleed procedure will work. BMW tried it on mine numerous times before going straight for the head change. They no go for the HVA's which is very hit and miss.

I can't say for sure if this will cause damage, but to me the Follower hitting the camshaft like it is must be causing excessive wear, although it could take many years/miles for this to have any effect.

 

[coupedan]

This is interesting because mine has always had a noise, didn't notice it when I bought it but after about a week or so I did.
I took it to BMW to look at and they said it's the characteristics of the engine (To me, that's wrong seeing as so many people say they don't have this issue).

However, mine sounds like it's getting a tad louder, it's a daily driver and does around 3-400 miles a week!
In the mornings I don't let it idle for too long, just enough to start, put belt on etc and then go and it's a short drive then onto the Motorway.
In the evenings is my issue as when I finish work I sit in traffic for around 20-25 mins before getting a clear run home.

I have read up about the HVA issues and I would like to confront BMW about it but have read horror stories when dealerships don't want to help etc.
It does annoy me knowing that something is so blatantly wrong and BMW won't do anything about it!

Cheers
Dan.

 

[MerBrook]

The engine bleed procedure was quite simple as advised by MHZ4C and as I say it seems to have worked. How long for I don't know but remain hopeful. Also found this article (link below) which matched MHZ4C's advice plus a little bit more.
http://www.quirkyuncle.com/2013/04/12/diy-quieting-the-infamous-bmw-lifter-tick/
Has to be said though I am getting a little bit fed up with BMW's "problems" and their lack of responsibility for the problems. We had a very near miss with the N47 engine problem (BMW denying any problems with the timing chain design etc) affecting a previous 320d tourer of ours and now find this with the Z4. Are other manufacturers the same or is it just a BMW thing?

 

[srhutch]

Some light reading for you of my experiences.

http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10937#p161535

 

[Nova2k7]

The only issue is that no one seems to confirm that this can happen to the M54 as well. I've even put some hydraulic lifter treatment into mine and its still the same.

the sound on mine seems to be coming from underneath the car though! its very strange!

its also had an inspection 2 last month!

 

[MHZ4C]

The engine bleed procedure was quite simple as advised by MHZ4C and as I say it seems to have worked. How long for I don't know but remain hopeful. Also found this article (link below) which matched MHZ4C's advice plus a little bit more.
http://www.quirkyuncle.com/2013/04/12/diy-quieting-the-infamous-bmw-lifter-tick/
Has to be said though I am getting a little bit fed up with BMW's "problems" and their lack of responsibility for the problems. We had a very near miss with the N47 engine problem (BMW denying any problems with the timing chain design etc) affecting a previous 320d tourer of ours and now find this with the Z4. Are other manufacturers the same or is it just a BMW thing?

That's an interesting article MerBrook, thanks for sharing.

Interesting point about the frequency of issues in different markets.
I can understand that starting the car and getting going quickly means the oil pressure gets up and the oil warms quicker, meaning the cylinder head is nicely oiled. Whereas sitting in traffic idling with cold oil would be less effective at getting everything nicely oiled.
Also, the habits of driving the car in terms of not racing the engine etc.I keep revs below 3k when cold, but still change above 2k rather than babying the engine too much. When it's nice and hot I make a conscious effort to get some nice pulls in over 5k to make sure the vanos is flushed by nice and hot oil.
With so much torque it is easy to drive the n52 at very low revs without labouring the engine, but longer term it's not so good for it, as it was designed to be used! Bit of a compromise between minimising wear and tear with low revs, and using the full range of the engine to keep it happy. A good excuse to give it some beans!

 

[srhutch]

The engine bleed procedure was quite simple as advised by MHZ4C and as I say it seems to have worked. How long for I don't know but remain hopeful. Also found this article (link below) which matched MHZ4C's advice plus a little bit more.
http://www.quirkyuncle.com/2013/04/12/diy-quieting-the-infamous-bmw-lifter-tick/
Has to be said though I am getting a little bit fed up with BMW's "problems" and their lack of responsibility for the problems. We had a very near miss with the N47 engine problem (BMW denying any problems with the timing chain design etc) affecting a previous 320d tourer of ours and now find this with the Z4. Are other manufacturers the same or is it just a BMW thing?

That's an interesting article MerBrook, thanks for sharing.

Interesting point about the frequency of issues in different markets.
I can understand that starting the car and getting going quickly means the oil pressure gets up and the oil warms quicker, meaning the cylinder head is nicely oiled. Whereas sitting in traffic idling with cold oil would be less effective at getting everything nicely oiled.
Also, the habits of driving the car in terms of not racing the engine etc.I keep revs below 3k when cold, but still change above 2k rather than babying the engine too much. When it's nice and hot I make a conscious effort to get some nice pulls in over 5k to make sure the vanos is flushed by nice and hot oil.
With so much torque it is easy to drive the n52 at very low revs without labouring the engine, but longer term it's not so good for it, as it was designed to be used! Bit of a compromise between minimising wear and tear with low revs, and using the full range of the engine to keep it happy. A good excuse to give it some beans!

As I posted in my thread, one of the things BMW told me to do initially was drive the car harder. I pointed out that I already drove it the way it was meant to be driven :wink:

Bottom line is it's a design fault. Some cars show sings of it other don't. My car was used every day doing 25 miles each way and never used for short journeys. I was driven as a BMW should be but still had the issue.

 

[Clearancediver]

I read all the links/information etc plus have done extensive reading on the oil specs..... One thing that is apparent is the need to use the proper spec'd oil.... BMW LL-01... which entails oil that meets the European oil A3 oil shear specification of greater than 3.5 vice the North American API spec of 2.9-3.5....

The engines were designed with the European specification in mind. It's going to make a difference to the hydraulic lifters if the oil doesn't meet the proper shear strength....

 

[MHZ4C]

As I posted in my thread, one of the things BMW told me to do initially was drive the car harder. I pointed out that I already drove it the way it was meant to be driven :wink:

Bottom line is it's a design fault. Some cars show sings of it other don't. My car was used every day doing 25 miles each way and never used for short journeys. I was driven as a BMW should be but still had the issue.

That's very interesting reading Srhutch, thanks.
On the brand new cars it almost sounds like a dodgy batch of lifters were used in production as they awere out of spec from new. Maybe the stories of hva replacement relate to checking build histories, and if your car is found to have the dodgy 'batch' used then they replace HVAs or replace head.

I agree, bad design! Would like to know why some experience it more than others though. e.g. combination / impact of how the car is used, the oil used by the dealership (0W and 5W ll-01 / ll-04 etc.), defective hva parts and a dodgy head design that allows the oil to drain when sat and not relube with cold oil.

 

[coupedan]

Interestingly enough, I tried this "Bleed Procedure" on mine and the issue seemed to have disappeared for a day or so.
However, 2 short trips later and the tapping was back. I have had no luck with BMW changing any parts etc, the mechanics "cannot hear" the sound, although it's blatantly there and therefore have stated it's the characteristics of the car.. Bullsh** is what I say! :thumbsdown:

I'm not sure if it does any damage but IMO it doesn't sound good!

 

[srhutch]

Bleed procedure is a waste of time, it clears the issue at the time but that's about it.

I was really lucky in that my dealer is only half a mile away and could coasr virtually all the way there ensuring the noise remained.

 

[coupedan]

Bleed procedure is a waste of time, it clears the issue at the time but that's about it.

I was really lucky in that my dealer is only half a mile away and could coasr virtually all the way there ensuring the noise remained.

Srhutch,

How did you get your dealer to change the head? I've been to 2 different dealers now and they are pretty reluctant - My car is still under AUC for another year or so (If that makes any difference?)

Cheers,
Dan.