Engine rattling + which Indy around Leicester?

[Argyll Andy]

In my personal opinion if I paid for an independent inspection PLUS fully inspected the car and no faults were found the onus is not on the seller as there was no fault detected/presenting when it left their possession.

When I first read this the other day my immediate thought was my only point of comeback may be the Indy. I still stick with this. If you pay a professional for their services and they miss something that’s on them, BUT……… if there was definitely no sign of any issue they too could not be held responsible as there was nothing for them to find at the precise moment they inspected the car.

I think unfortunately this is one of those instances where buying privately has possibly come back ant bit the buyer on the arse with no recourse for an arising issue. If you want to have that you pay another couple of grand minimum from a dealer for that protection. Yes I’d be mightily pissed off if it happened to me but that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the sellers fault/problem. All IMHO

Anyway OP, I hope it is a minor issue that you can get easily and cheaply sorted and then enjoy many miles in your Z4

 

[Barty]

Before getting into a finger-pointing contest (which benefits absolutely nobody), let’s wait and see what the actual diagnosis is. It’s a deeply disappointing start to M-ownership, especially after what sounds like going above and beyond your due diligence. Same sounds true for the seller, who has seemingly happily accommodated every request and wish.

Ultimately, mechanical failures happen, especially now they’re all getting on a bit. The timing is deeply unfortunate but until an actual diagnosis is made by a specialist and the root-cause understood, all this is speculation off of little else than written descriptions, suspicions and a soundbite. Let’s hold off on the pitchforks and torches and let an expert see what’s what.

I share your -and everyone’s- hope for a speedy resolution, and that it may turn out to be a minor foible before a thoroughly enjoyable M-experience into the summer

 

[MKZ4000]

The noise, does sound similar to Ed Does flattened follower to my ears.

I don’t think you will have much recourse with it not being as described as the noise wasn’t present when you inspected the car.

Sounds like you have been really unlucky but hopefully the fix is not as expensive as you are fearing.

Keep us informed of the outcome

 

[Milz4y]

Thanks Barty, MKZ. I really appreciate the support this forum has provided.

Ross, going to ignore your comments here as this thread is about getting help with the diagnosis and fix. I don't expect this forum to be judge and jury of our dispute. If you want to discuss that, please message me directly, instead of trying to make me look like the bad guy here. It's an unfortunate situation all round, and would've hoped for more help from you as the issue was on day 1 on the first drive back.. so if you aren't going to help, stay off my thread please and complain to me directly.

Reading through Ed Doe's story (great write up https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=125200) of investigating bottom then top of engine, here's my plan:

1. New oil filter, check webs of the old (not just the outside)
2. Millers oil results (guessing I'm looking for copper and phosphorus elements?)
3. Bottom end if 2. Looks bad, with Redish
4. Top end and inspection 1 (which includes a VHC) with Redish if oil results look good.

Thoughts? Not going to rush, as the car is now on a ctek charger.

Thanks again everyone for the support. Properly bummed out right now.

 

[Ed Doe]

Thanks Barty, MKZ. I really appreciate the support this forum has provided.

Ross, going to ignore your comments here as this thread is about getting help with the diagnosis and fix. I don't expect this forum to be judge and jury of our dispute. If you want to discuss that, please message me directly, instead of trying to make me look like the bad guy here. It's an unfortunate situation all round, and would've hoped for more help from you as the issue was on day 1 on the first drive back.. so if you aren't going to help, stay off my thread please and complain to me directly.

Reading through Ed Doe's story (great write up https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=125200) of investigating bottom then top of engine, here's my plan:

1. New oil filter, check webs of the old (not just the outside)
2. Millers oil results (guessing I'm looking for copper and phosphorus elements?)
3. Bottom end if 2. Looks bad, with Redish
4. Top end and inspection 1 (which includes a VHC) with Redish if oil results look good.

Thoughts? Not going to rush, as the car is now on a ctek charger.

Thanks again everyone for the support. Properly bummed out right now.

One thing I'd say is the bits I found in my filter were a bit deceiving - they turned out to be nothing of note. I'd say the oil analysis will confirm if there's excessive metal particulates in the oil, but unlikely to diagnose from where these have come.

I'd get it down to Redish for inspection, I recommend using Shiply - when mine went pop, I used a local transporter from me found through them, and the price was pretty reasonable. Alternatively to Redish, it is well worth speaking to Mr Vanos - he's more up your way and well priced, and he does heaps of s54 and s85 rebuilds, as well as the f series m5s and the v10 M5w. He REALLY knows his stuff - the only reason I didn't end up going with him is because at the time he was super booked and was hours and hours away from me which would have been a pain to get the car to him and to collect it.

Best of luck with it, rotten thing to happen so early in M ownership, hopefully it isn't too painful. If it turns out to be flattened followers, speak to Martin Holland at MSMotorsport - he sorted me out with a set of schrick dlc followers at a good price. I sourced cams from BMW direct, worth hitting up m3cutters for the latest discounts available by telling them you're a forum member! Alternatively you could just do what I should have done and whack some schrick cams in it and get circa 380hp!

 

[AndyBeech]

If it was me I would just get it into a specialist as near you as possible and go from there. I wouldn't spend too much money at this point doing anything other than letting someone diagnose it first. If it's been serviced within schedule I wouldn't worry with Inspection services etc. at this point unless you have an engine apart job anyway.

The two specialists mentioned are very good (I've used both), I would also give Darragh at Everything M3 a shout as well, if you are in Leicester he's in Banbury so not too far. Try to stay local at this point save yourself some transport money before you know what it is. Apart from that there's nothing Darragh can't do that the other two can whatever it turns out to be. Only issue is booking time as he's very busy but so will all the main specialists be. Costs will all be similar between them I imagine. Darragh, James @ Redish and Hack Engineering all have contact with each other so you can be sure they all share similar standards (Hack Engineering very good also but probably a bit far for you).

I've used him also to do various work inc. rod bearings and would have no issue letting him do any work with these cars. You can look up his reputation for yourself on the various forums.

As you say, if the engine has to come apart to diagnose it then you can get advice as you go along on what is worth doing at the same time. As you say, if bottom end needs to come off, you'd be silly not to replace rod bearings and associated parts anyway.
Top end same depending how far it needs to be stripped down, VANOS is an easy(ish) win, can do valve clearances if you need. Cam's / followers out may as well do the head gasket while there if it gets that far. Anyway, whoever you choose will advise you at the time so don't worry about it.

Oil filter you want to use is either a genuine BMW or a Mahle OX187D which is the same filter without a BMW logo on it.

Just another option to help you out. Think of it another way that the money you saved buying private over dealer gives you a fair chunk to spend on doing these things at a proper specialist and have some control over it as opposed to a dealer doing god knows what at a mechanic of their choice. If you were planning on keeping it a while these things will need doing eventually anyway :wink:

 

[Milz4y]

Thanks Ed, Andy, that's super helpful. Will check out Darragh. Hack Engineering's video on the s54 breakdown was a great overall rundown too https://youtu.be/TgBLjGJeTZk

Will update this thread as I go along. I hope I've made a mountain out of a molehill and been overly cautious. Still not turned on the engine.

On another note, cleared out the bunged up drain pipes today so at least some progress https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1916128#p1916128

I ordered the Mahle Oil filter, thanks for the recommendation Andy.

Update:
The oil sample results are all clear which gives me hope the knocking sound isn't bottom end related though Redish say you can't be sure... https://youtu.be/QNVJwh-3o58 Redish are saying you need 7 - 20 hours to investigate top and bottom end. Seems OTT at this stage surely

Attached is a photo as well of a small bit of swarf (~2mm) from the old oil filter that I replaced.. otherwise all the other flanges of the filter were clear (only small dots of stuff elsewhere). Shine is the oil in the sun, not metal. Can see a picture in the shade for comparison

 

[Milz4y]

So the car's with Mr Vanos getting the engine sorted. Photos and video here but some attached: https://www.instagram.com/p/CcxxL_3K4Nn/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

- The original rattle was a missing bolt on the gearbox mounting (... relieved it wasn't big end knocking and more serious)
- Vanos needed replacing (definitely was from before I bought it, but I nor the indy could hear it before purchasing... which is bizarre. My excuse is, I didn't know you needed to hold revs at 4k ... the Indy claimed the gruppem intake was too loud :roll: )
- For peace of mind I got the rod bearings done too, so at least the bottom end could be checked at the same time
- Found the oil pump needed replacing too - damaged plunger (unfortunate as it's costly, but glad it was found ..and why the bottom end was worth checking). Mr Vanos found glitter in the oil, which I didn't and said it was due to this, and not enough oil getting circulated.
- Valve checks and clearances done too

Other stuff I knew about that needed doing, done:
- Weeping PAS line sorted
- Brake lines replaced with kunifer ones
- Crack in the Aircon and poly v belt sorted

Thanks again for everyone's input and support

 

[GT Spec]

The oil pump piston issue is a known issue on the late S54 engines. BMW’s supplier decided to revise the part and make them from aluminium. You can get DLC replacements from Burkhart Engineering. Definitely worth doing if the oil sump is ever off.

 

[GT Spec]

Also worrying to see that the transmission crossmember bolts had worked themselves loose and that the specialist who examined the car didn’t spot this.

 

[Ed Doe]

Good to hear you've got to the bottom of the issue, and sounds like although expensive it was worth having the car looked at - least you know it'll be tip top for plenty of enjoyment over summer.

You can also take plenty of comfort in the car being in the vest hands with Mr Vanos - Steve is bloody brilliant.

 

[Milz4y]

The oil pump piston issue is a known issue on the late S54 engines. BMW’s supplier decided to revise the part and make them from aluminium. You can get DLC replacements from Burkhart Engineering. Definitely worth doing if the oil sump is ever off.

Thanks for that, though it's a bit late as I decided to already go for OEM for the whole oil pump setup - Mr Vanos and Hack Engineering both recommended that..

Also worrying to see that the transmission crossmember bolts had worked themselves loose and that the specialist who examined the car didn’t spot this.

Yup... Or benefit of the doubt - It could've worked loose hitting a bad pothole in the dark on the 300 mile journey home from Cornwall

 

[Milz4y]

Good to hear you've got to the bottom of the issue, and sounds like although expensive it was worth having the car looked at - least you know it'll be tip top for plenty of enjoyment over summer.

You can also take plenty of comfort in the car being in the vest hands with Mr Vanos - Steve is bloody brilliant.

Thanks Ed. Looking forward to it. Making a few plans already for the summer!

And yes, Steve is brilliant. Expert in his field and very helpful

 

[Justino]

Good luck with claiming off the seller, if they are a private seller as opposed to a dealer, then not sure you have any recourse, when items are sold as seen etc. Dealers have a different duty of care, and different laws covering them, but still would be difficult pinning a mechanical failure 'after' purchase. Could just be bad luck.

I once sold the other half's Seat to a young couple - £750. About a week after they got in touch saying it was running rough, asking had it been like this before. I was pretty sure it would be a coil pack having replaced another earlier that year, and it had been sat for about 4 months unused. Out of pity and guilt I bought another, drove to their house and fitted it - cured. It was £20, 1 hour of my time, and a very relieved young couple.