Engine Oil LL-01 vs LL-4

[Tumnus]

There's more info here: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=886017

It looks like the LL-04 was more important for cars with diesel particulate filters, LL-01 may be fine for petrol cars but personally I'd stick with what BMW recommend.

 

[4zwmb]

Well bmw recommend both LL-01 and LL-04 but what I did not know was in which countries these two types of oils should be used. Apparently bmw does not recommend castrol anymore "Beginning in 2015, BMW is recommending Shell/Pennzoil PurePlus Oils as their aftermarket oil."

 

[Ewazix]

All this has made me think of something else now too...Does it mean that our engine oil mixes with the fuel at some point when the car is being used?

The key cross-over between oil and fuel is the cylinder bore Vs Piston rings, ideally the rings run on a microscopic film of oil and there is minimal metal to metal contact. A problem was caused by low sulphur fuel spec's in Europe where the fuel caused the oil film to break down between bore and rings, causing accelerated ring wear, loss of compression and even bore wear. This worn interface can also allow combustion gases to chemically change and contaminate the oil, oil in this state is more likely to form film/plaque deposits which will accelerate wear on cams/lifters and shells.

Best to stick to LL04 on post 2004 engines in Europe per BMW advice

 

[flybobbie]

Do direct injection engines wash the bore increasing wear compared to non direct injection engines?

 

[Smartbear]

Do direct injection engines wash the bore increasing wear compared to non direct injection engines?

I don't see why that would happen? It's being injected directly into the part of the engine where it's most efficient :?
Rob

 

[enzed4]

All this has made me think of something else now too...Does it mean that our engine oil mixes with the fuel at some point when the car is being used?

The key cross-over between oil and fuel is the cylinder bore Vs Piston rings, ideally the rings run on a microscopic film of oil and there is minimal metal to metal contact. A problem was caused by low sulphur fuel spec's in Europe where the fuel caused the oil film to break down between bore and rings, causing accelerated ring wear, loss of compression and even bore wear. This worn interface can also allow combustion gases to chemically change and contaminate the oil, oil in this state is more likely to form film/plaque deposits which will accelerate wear on cams/lifters and shells.

Best to stick to LL04 on post 2004 engines in Europe per BMW advice

I'll amend my earlier comment about not making any difference whether you use LL-01/LL-04 as long as you change oil regularly, because a bit more research seems to indicate we run a higher sulfate fuel that you guys in the UK, so LL-01 is probably fine for me, but may not be the case for you. Here, LL-04 is more aimed at the diesels I think.
I'll quietly butt-out of this conversation now... :|

 

[Ewazix]

All this has made me think of something else now too...Does it mean that our engine oil mixes with the fuel at some point when the car is being used?

The key cross-over between oil and fuel is the cylinder bore Vs Piston rings, ideally the rings run on a microscopic film of oil and there is minimal metal to metal contact. A problem was caused by low sulphur fuel spec's in Europe where the fuel caused the oil film to break down between bore and rings, causing accelerated ring wear, loss of compression and even bore wear. This worn interface can also allow combustion gases to chemically change and contaminate the oil, oil in this state is more likely to form film/plaque deposits which will accelerate wear on cams/lifters and shells.

Best to stick to LL04 on post 2004 engines in Europe per BMW advice

I'll amend my earlier comment about not making any difference whether you use LL-01/LL-04 as long as you change oil regularly, because a bit more research seems to indicate we run a higher sulfate fuel that you guys in the UK, so LL-01 is probably fine for me, but may not be the case for you. Here, LL-04 is more aimed at the diesels I think.
I'll quietly butt-out of this conversation now... :|

Yes having checked it out there is mass confusion out there caused by the LL01 / LL04 requirement varying by region and fuel quality. Just to clarify another point it also seems that any engine designated to use LL01 (in that region) can use LL04 which is backward compatible to LL01.

But for those of us with also run other older pre 1992 cars which specified pre-LL01 oils (synth' / mineral hybrid oils or mineral oils) then DON'T use LL01/04 or other fully synthetic oils thinking fully synth' will be 'better', as these are not compatible with seals etc in those older engines and will cause excessive oil consumption, wear and damage to seals.
http://www.aaoil.co.uk/files/4714/4828/2983/Pages_from_AAOC_Catalogue_2015_25-30page.compressed.pdf

I guess the golden rule is to go by the book (in your car)

 

[4zwmb]

Mass confusion and half of it coming from me! Yes I agree that probably the best bet is to go by the book of the car. But the manual does specify both LL-01 and LL-04 as being suitable, however on the manual it says nothing about in which country to use one or the other and that is very confusing. In fact I got to know about this whole idea of these two oil types from the net.

I have contacted Opie Oils with this issue and they replied to me a couple of hours later. They said I can use both LL-01 and LL-04 regardless where I live. So as you can see there are mixed opinions and not one final truth.

 

[flybobbie]

Do direct injection engines wash the bore increasing wear compared to non direct injection engines?

I don't see why that would happen? It's being injected directly into the part of the engine where it's most efficient :?
Rob

Well lets say if I wanted to clean a bore what better way than spraying fuel down it.
At least with indirect injection as per the lower engine models the fuel has a chance to swirl around.http://ac.els-cdn.com/S187661021631445X/1-s2.0-S187661021631445X-main.pdf?_tid=3776de7c-380d-11e7-a265-00000aab0f6c&acdnat=1494701687_b694209255daf1eef28834c8f2768b1d
Interesting read.

 

[4zwmb]

Have a quick look guys and tell me which part confused you more!? Wtf, LL-04 only for diesel engines?

https://www.oildepot.ca/bmw-motor-oil-specifications-explained/

 

[Ewazix]

Have a quick look guys and tell me which part confused you more!? Wtf, LL-04 only for diesel engines?

https://www.oildepot.ca/bmw-motor-oil-specifications-explained/

This, again relates to the USA, not Europe. Their fuel compositions are different to Europe. As mentioned throughout this thread the different regional oil spec' requirements take account of the Sulphur content and other additives that are used in the fuel. This dictates which oil is specified by BMW according to where you are.

If you go by the spec in the manual for your car you can't go wrong.

I had an interesting chat with an Indi' I know who also prepares and races F1 Sidecar outfits, tour'car BMW's and Subaru, he really knows his stuff and says he sticks with Castrol and Petronas Oils including for his race outfit (which is a bonkers Kawasaki ex championship winning engine) He says re my Subaru Turbo and Z4 that he services, that these are "the best oils, use what the book says and just keep changing it regularly".

 

[4zwmb]

Have a quick look guys and tell me which part confused you more!? Wtf, LL-04 only for diesel engines?

https://www.oildepot.ca/bmw-motor-oil-specifications-explained/

This, again relates to the USA, not Europe. Their fuel compositions are different to Europe. As mentioned throughout this thread the different regional oil spec' requirements take account of the Sulphur content and other additives that are used in the fuel. This dictates which oil is specified by BMW according to where you are.

If you go by the spec in the manual for your car you can't go wrong.

I had an interesting chat with an Indi' I know who also prepares and races F1 Sidecar outfits, tour'car BMW's and Subaru, he really knows his stuff and says he sticks with Castrol and Petronas Oils including for his race outfit (which is a bonkers Kawasaki ex championship winning engine) He says re my Subaru Turbo and Z4 that he services, that these are "the best oils, use what the book says and just keep changing it regularly".

Interesting to hear the reviews of a professional Indi...Yes if you go by the spec in the manual of your car, you cant go wrong but like I said, in the manual both LL-01 and LL-04 are approved, it does not mention anything about in which countries/regions to use one or the other...I suspect LL-01 can be used anywhere in the world, LL-04 can only be used in Europe. But then again, its only my non professional hunch.

 

[Ewazix]

Have a quick look guys and tell me which part confused you more!? Wtf, LL-04 only for diesel engines?

https://www.oildepot.ca/bmw-motor-oil-specifications-explained/

This, again relates to the USA, not Europe. Their fuel compositions are different to Europe. As mentioned throughout this thread the different regional oil spec' requirements take account of the Sulphur content and other additives that are used in the fuel. This dictates which oil is specified by BMW according to where you are.

If you go by the spec in the manual for your car you can't go wrong.

I had an interesting chat with an Indi' I know who also prepares and races F1 Sidecar outfits, tour'car BMW's and Subaru, he really knows his stuff and says he sticks with Castrol and Petronas Oils including for his race outfit (which is a bonkers Kawasaki ex championship winning engine) He says re my Subaru Turbo and Z4 that he services, that these are "the best oils, use what the book says and just keep changing it regularly".

Interesting to hear the reviews of a professional Indi...Yes if you go by the spec in the manual of your car, you cant go wrong but like I said, in the manual both LL-01 and LL-04 are approved, it does not mention anything about in which countries/regions to use one or the other...I suspect LL-01 can be used anywhere in the world, LL-04 can only be used in Europe. But then again, its only my non professional hunch.

It seems Malta went to Ultra low sulphur fuels (10 parts per million or less) in 2009 so LL01 was recommended, later superseded by LL04 which is 'improved' and backwards compatible, but only with petrol engines originally specified for LL01 and now running on ultra low sulphur petrol.
http://www.justiceservices.gov.mt/DownloadDocument.aspx?app=lom&itemid=10692

The UK was ahead of some EU countries as it went to ultra low sulphur petrol in 2005
http://www.ukpia.com/industry_issues/fuels/sulphur-free-petrol-diesel-and-non-road-fuels.aspx

Apparently all the advice for American markets was issues independently from Munich by BMW USA as a result of warranty issues with later cars using LL04 on US higher sulphur petrol, hence the contradictions in some documentation.

So logically your car, on Maltese ULS petrol can use LL01 or LL04 (but 04 is 'better'). So it's by the book then

By the way I'm no expert, I'm just handy at researching info back to authoritative sources (or OCD about shi'z as my daughter says)

 

[4zwmb]

Ewazix, you are an expert researcher in my opinion! Thanks for all that info! You have been very helpful indeed and I learnt a lot from you, been asking about this issue for months now, you were the only one to come up with a really concrete explanation!

 

[Ewazix]

Ewazix, you are an expert researcher in my opinion! Thanks for all that info! You have been very helpful indeed and I learnt a lot from you, been asking about this issue for months now, you were the only one to come up with a really concrete explanation!

No prob's, you can buy me a beer if I'm ever in Malta 8)

 

[4zwmb]

Ewazix, you are an expert researcher in my opinion! Thanks for all that info! You have been very helpful indeed and I learnt a lot from you, been asking about this issue for months now, you were the only one to come up with a really concrete explanation!

No prob's, you can buy me a beer if I'm ever in Malta 8)

I wont buy you a beer! Thats singular! You can have as much as you want to, bill is on me! Do tell me if you are ever planning a vacation over here, I would be more than glad to show you around and take you to the best places! I also live alone and my place has four bedrooms, you and your family can stay with me, free of charge, no problem at all.

 

[Ewazix]

Ewazix, you are an expert researcher in my opinion! Thanks for all that info! You have been very helpful indeed and I learnt a lot from you, been asking about this issue for months now, you were the only one to come up with a really concrete explanation!

No prob's, you can buy me a beer if I'm ever in Malta 8)

I wont buy you a beer! Thats singular! You can have as much as you want to, bill is on me! Do tell me if you are ever planning a vacation over here, I would be more than glad to show you around and take you to the best places! I also live alone and my place has four bedrooms, you and your family can stay with me, free of charge, no problem at all.

Super generous offer, you never know

 

[4zwmb]

8)

 

[4zwmb]

Latest reply in relation to this topic for you z4 drivers out there:

Hi Ruben,

Thanks very much for your question. As we are located in North America, I can't speak to European regulations. But from our perspective, the sulfur content of the fuel has nothing to do with engine oil choice.

According to our US-based application guide, your engine (and most BMW application with gasoline engines) require an engine oil with the BMW LL-01 specification. The BMW LL-01 spec requires a high "SAPS" level. SAPS is sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur. These are common anti-wear and detergent ingredients in motor oil.

I just looked on the Castrol Europe site and they do not seem to offer an LL-01 product. So it may be possible LL-01 is not offered in some European countries because of the higher SAPS level? I'm speculating, but perhaps these higher additive levels maybe curbed by EU regulations and that may be the reason that LL-01 is not offered?

The LL-04 spec is a low to mid-SAPS specification. The reason BMW LL-04 is lower-SAPS is that sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur can cause problems with diesel particulate filters. Engine oil formulas that carry the BMW LL-04 can certainly be used in gasoline engines. In North America, it is generally suggested for diesel BMW engines only because we have LL-01 products available.

So as your manual suggest LL-01 or LL-04, you are fine to use either. We would lean toward LL-01 (if you can attain a product with this spec) as has a more robust high-SAPS content.

Again, as we are North American-based, your best bet would be to contact Castrol of Europe for a definitive answer. Ruben thanks again for your question and sorry that we are offering some speculation.

Best Regards,

Marc Roden

This came from AMSOIL by the way.