E86 questions for prospective owner

[Invictus]

Hi all.

First post, just signed up.

I'm interested in buying a Z4 and am trying to sort through all the models offered. I've eliminated the G29.

I'm most focused on the E86 (3.0Si or the M), though I'm considering the E89. As I simply can't find a coupe within a reasonable distance to put hands on I need the experience available here to answer a few questions.

1. At 6'3", can I fit in the coupe? I'm only 195 pounds, so tall with an athletic build. I drove an E85 and fit fine with the top up - I had maybe 2 inches of spare headroom. I dropped the top and within 5 minutes I found the buffeting annoying, so I have no use for a convertible.

2. From what I've read the 3.0 Si motor (N52) is a strong workhorse with great reliability. I won't be tearing it up with the car, so I like the easy ownership of the N52. The S54 motor in the M appears to be a truly great motor with two flaws: the VANOS and the Bottom-End Bearings.
Does replacing the bearings with higher-oil-flow bearings permanently fix the crankshaft lubrication issue, or is there some issue with the block itself (oil passages?).

3. is the VANOS system that much of a big deal?

4. Finally, the E89 is in contention simply because it has a hard roof which I can leave in place all the time. There are many - TOO many - horror stories regarding the folding hardtop malfunctioning. I've read it has a more spacious cabin with much better materials. I think the styling wins from head on, but the coupe looks better from every other angle. I'll drive an E89 S35is this weekend - shame there's no manual gearbox with that motor.

Thank you for any insight you can offer.
Cheers!

 

[Z450]

At 6.3 you will fit into a Coupe with no issue.

As for which model to go for really depends what you want from the car and to spend as they are all quite different.

In terms of issues with all three models you will get mixed answers. There will be two groups.

The one group will be you need to be aware of all issues as them and others they know have experienced them. The other group will be I have done 150,000 miles and never had any issues

I would think the 3.0si Coupe would be the safest bet!

 

[Zedebee]

There is no question the 3.0Si is less costly to maintain than the M. There are very few issues with the N52, most often cited seems to be the electric water pump which you can replace preemptively. It’s an oft quoted trope on here that the 3.0Si is 90% of the car (compared to the M) at 50% of the price. Make of that what you will.

 

[Mr Tidy]

I've only had E86s but from what people have said on here the E85/86 is more "sports car" And the E89 more "GT car". And if you really want a manual there were some 35i models with manual gearboxes.

Anyway onto E86s! I bought my first 3.0Si in June 2014 and after a big water pump bill I decided to let it go in 2016, but realised what I would be missing so I bought another 3.0Si 2 days later and loved it. But after 3 years that "M" itch just wouldn't go away so I went to look at one in 2019. Sadly I didn't get to drive it far as it was on SORN and while I was making my mind up it sold!

A few months later there was an MC for sale a couple of miles from my house that someone over 150 miles away was interested in so I went to look at it (specifically the service History) on his behalf. The trader selling it fired it up, removed the price sticker from the screen and said he'd see me in half an hour or so. Great as I got to really drive it and realised I needed to have one while I still could (I had turned 60 that year).

Anyway my current one was advertised in December 2019 at a great price, had to be sold before Christmas and I just couldn't resist. 4+ years later I still love it. :wub:

A slightly different comparison to Zedebee's as I always thought of the 3.0Si as 80% of the M for 50% of the price and still do!

The N52 in the 3.0Si is a great engine. I like them so much I've had two more in 3 Series including my current manual 125K mile 330i. But the S54 in the M is just epic.

I had the bearing shells in my MC replaced at 78K miles and the upper 6 were all showing copper so that was a good call. Most of what I have read suggests working the engine hard from cold is the main cause of wear because running with 10W/60 it only thins when it is up to temperature. My car had 7 previous keepers so I figured at least one might have been less than sympathetic, especially as the first one was BMW UK! At my age I'm unlikely to need to get them done again, especially as I'm very gentle with it until it is up to temperature.

No Vanos issues so far, apart from my 2nd 3.0Si that needed a new intake vanos solenoid at 80K miles.

FWIW the twin-turbo engines in the 35 model E89s seem prone to High Pressure Fuel Pump, Injector and turbo problems that can quickly get expensive!

At 6' 3" you might be OK, but if you anywhere near Windlesham, Surrey you'd be welcome to try mine for size.

 

[Invictus]

Thank you for the quick replies.
I assumed I'd fit okay in the coupe, so this is encouraging. I drove Triumphs, MG's and TVR's in my younger days, so I'm used to a bit of "shoehorning" into fun cars. This car would be my retirement car, but at this point I'm riding an R1200GSA both on and of road. I'm in Oregon, but will relocate home to the NYC area in two years time. Whether or not the bike stays will be a decision for another day.

Mr. Tidy, you said you replaced the bearing shells. Were these with identical shells to original? Am I mistaken about there being a set of higher flow shells to assist with the wear issue? If it's only an issue due to abuse (lack of oil due to cold temps and heavy feet) I'd be less worried.

It seems the main issue with the VANOS system is the solenoids. I'm fairly mechanically adept, though I don't know what's involved. I'm sure it's not as simple as drilling down and swapping in a new solenoid or two. Any idea as to the cost of the general repair? How about typical cost of replacing bottom end bearing shells??

I would almost certainly look for a N52 over an S54, but both are scarce, so I might at some point need to grab what I can get.

I realize the E89 is the more "civilized" car, but it clearly appears more complicated and has, I feel, less presence.
It's all to easy to read horror stories from some and blissful musings from others. It's the same regarding BMW's GSA on the Adventure Rider forums - search long enough and you'll find the answer you want.

 

[Nictrix]

I'll drive an E89 S35is this weekend - shame there's no manual gearbox with that motor.

The 35i (not 35is) can be found with a manual gearbox.
It has slightly less hp than the 35is though

 

[Mr Tidy]

Thank you for the quick replies.
I assumed I'd fit okay in the coupe, so this is encouraging. I drove Triumphs, MG's and TVR's in my younger days, so I'm used to a bit of "shoehorning" into fun cars. This car would be my retirement car, but at this point I'm riding an R1200GSA both on and of road. I'm in Oregon, but will relocate home to the NYC area in two years time. Whether or not the bike stays will be a decision for another day.

Mr. Tidy, you said you replaced the bearing shells. Were these with identical shells to original? Am I mistaken about there being a set of higher flow shells to assist with the wear issue? If it's only an issue due to abuse (lack of oil due to cold temps and heavy feet) I'd be less worried.

It seems the main issue with the VANOS system is the solenoids. I'm fairly mechanically adept, though I don't know what's involved. I'm sure it's not as simple as drilling down and swapping in a new solenoid or two. Any idea as to the cost of the general repair? How about typical cost of replacing bottom end bearing shells??

I would almost certainly look for a N52 over an S54, but both are scarce, so I might at some point need to grab what I can get.

I realize the E89 is the more "civilized" car, but it clearly appears more complicated and has, I feel, less presence.
It's all to easy to read horror stories from some and blissful musings from others. It's the same regarding BMW's GSA on the Adventure Rider forums - search long enough and you'll find the answer you want.

My MC is my retirement car! I just had to have one while I still could, but I doubt you'll be anywhere near me anytime soon!

My BMW Indy set up his business after 15 years at a BMW main dealer so when he fitted ACL bearing shells I assumed he thought they were better than the OE shells.

New shells and engine mounts cost £1,000 in 2020. My old shells looked like this after 78K miles.



I'm not expecting to need to replace them again!

But the S54 does need valve clearances checking and adjusting with shims as required every other service (typically every 4 years) that costs around £600/700. Whereas the N52 has hydraulic lifters.

The new Vanos solenoid for my 3.0Si cost £126 supplied and fitted.

FWIW the 30i E89 had the same N52 engine as the E86 in the UK, so hopefully it did in the US too.

Anyway good luck with your Z4 search.

 

[Z4Mariner]

I can't give you a comparison between 3.0Si and M coupes - but I can share that before I got my E86, I was looking at buying an E89. Late in the Summer of 2021, a friend-of-a-friend wanted to sell his 2011 E89 3.0Si with manual transmission, M-sport package, and extremely low miles - never driven in winter. I thought I was buying his car, until he told his wife he was selling it . . . Spring of 2022 I looked at other E89's, including test driving, but I didn't find a car with the N52 / Manual combination in good enough shape and low enough miles.

Spring drifted into Summer 2022, and I had no sports car. My good friend with an 2006 E85 got me to search for a car like his, even though I didn't really want a convertible - his logic was that I could drive for the Summer, keep miles low, and sell the car if I couldn't live with a convertible. So I searched US-wide, and my search turned up some possibles, including a "hatchback" :roll: - for my 'convertible-only' search. I checked the VIN, and it was an E86 coupe with a manual transmission, the M-sport suspension, and sport seats. That's my car now.

I share the opinion that the E86 feels more sporty to me than the N52-engined E89. I drive it as my 'daily' during the Spring-Summer-Fall. One thing that was a pleasant surpise is how much I can get into the boot of my E86. And best of all, my wife likes riding with me in the coupe !

Edited for future generations to assure them that I don't make my wife ride in the boot

 

[Fred Smith]

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[Bodyboarder]

I’ve owned a Z4MC , driven a 3.0 Si E86 if my brother inlaws a lot and now own a E85 3.0si …. I’ve only just purchase my E85 and did have the budget for a M version . Have had a S54 previously in the Z4 I just could t be bothered to have the extra expense of tax /insurance /maintenance of that engine . I agree with what’s been said that the 3.0si is 80-90% of the M. I was absolutely disappointed when my brother inlaws E86 3.0si would keep up with my Z4MC up until 80mph . Dare I say it with a slight higher final drive in the 3.0si I really don’t think there would be a lot in it down a road … my E85 owned me around 8k now and that’s including a front end respray , inspection 2 service inc spark plugs , new water pump/thermostate , new wheels and oil housing/thermostat gaskets replaced …. And absolutely bargain of a car to be honest …. Value for money , reliability, looks , sound . If I didn’t also have my M2C I’d have 100% bought a E86 3.0si for the looks and what I’ve stated above

 

[Mr Tidy]

In terms of the "80% or 90% of the car for 50% of the price" thing. On the one hand this makes sense to me as a "never been in an M" person. On the other I get the impression that there is an argument that there is no comparison at all.

The 3.0si is a proper, fast, sports car. Absolutely superb driver's car.

The M is "next level", like a Lamborghini is "next level". If you're all about the track, or all about having the most insane performance possible, then there is no competition, it beats the 3.0si hands down.

But if you're not on the track, and you're not all about the most insane performance possible, and you just want a car to drive and have fun with on the road, then maybe the 3.0si wins hands down?

I can understand your logic having been on some spirited drives with other Z4 owners in Cumbria and the NC500. 3.0Si owners didn't get left behind by M owners even on the quicker stretches.

I suppose all I needed was my 3.0Si, but I really wanted that M experience once in my life given that I was 60 when I bought it!

Loved both my 3.0Sis with a straight 6 that revved to 7,000rpm, but the M just feels more special as soon as I start the engine. The soundtrack is just wonderful and keeps getting more intoxicating the nearer I get to the 8,000 red-line.

The Hydraulic PAS on the M definitely has more feel, even if it is surprisingly heavy compared to the EPAS in the 3.0Si. I just wanted to sample an MC despite knowing it would be a much more costly option. I went into M ownership with my eyes open and it was a price I was prepared to pay for a car I only use on special occasions.

And I can get an N52 fix in my 330i daily that has HPAS!

 

[Fred Smith]

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[Bodyboarder]

I can understand your logic having been on some spirited drives with other Z4 owners in Cumbria and the NC500. 3.0Si owners didn't get left behind by M owners even on the quicker stretches.

I suppose all I needed was my 3.0Si, but I really wanted that M experience once in my life given that I was 60 when I bought it!

Loved both my 3.0Sis with a straight 6 that revved to 7,000rpm, but the M just feels more special as soon as I start the engine. The soundtrack is just wonderful and keeps getting more intoxicating the nearer I get to the 8,000 red-line.

The Hydraulic PAS on the M definitely has more feel, even if it is surprisingly heavy compared to the EPAS in the 3.0Si. I just wanted to sample an MC despite knowing it would be a much more costly option. I went into M ownership with my eyes open and it was a price I was prepared to pay for a car I only use on special occasions.

And I can get an N52 fix in my 330i daily that has HPAS!

I'd like to think that most people can agree that the 3.0si is a lot more car than any of us need, let alone the M.

The only reason to own a 3.0si is the smile, and if that smile is bigger on the "M" then the "M" is better! My E86 feels special in comparison to what I've owned before, and that is a big part of why I love it, and I completely believe you that the M feels a lot more special.

I am used to very average cars, and as a result I'm used to flooring a car even if I'm neither going fast nor trying to! I suppose that part of my lack of desire to own a faster car than a 3.0si is the belief that with an M I'd either be in a ditch in the first 3 miles, or I'd be nervously dabbing the accelerator and having less fun than in a 3.0si. I suppose, in the alternative, I could try to learn to be a better driver and handle the power.

You’d be absolutely fine in an M …. Compared to anything half speedy nowadays they aren’t that fast . Most 3.0tdi would be as quick if not quicker . Crazy how things have moved on … the E85/6 in either 3.0 or M is an old school car with bags of character and that’s why both are fantastic

 

[Fred Smith]

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[Mr Tidy]

Bodyboarder wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:29 am
Fred Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:11 am
Mr Tidy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:41 pm

I can understand your logic having been on some spirited drives with other Z4 owners in Cumbria and the NC500. 3.0Si owners didn't get left behind by M owners even on the quicker stretches.

I suppose all I needed was my 3.0Si, but I really wanted that M experience once in my life given that I was 60 when I bought it!

Loved both my 3.0Sis with a straight 6 that revved to 7,000rpm, but the M just feels more special as soon as I start the engine. The soundtrack is just wonderful and keeps getting more intoxicating the nearer I get to the 8,000 red-line.

The Hydraulic PAS on the M definitely has more feel, even if it is surprisingly heavy compared to the EPAS in the 3.0Si. I just wanted to sample an MC despite knowing it would be a much more costly option. I went into M ownership with my eyes open and it was a price I was prepared to pay for a car I only use on special occasions.

And I can get an N52 fix in my 330i daily that has HPAS!
I'd like to think that most people can agree that the 3.0si is a lot more car than any of us need, let alone the M.

The only reason to own a 3.0si is the smile, and if that smile is bigger on the "M" then the "M" is better! My E86 feels special in comparison to what I've owned before, and that is a big part of why I love it, and I completely believe you that the M feels a lot more special.

I am used to very average cars, and as a result I'm used to flooring a car even if I'm neither going fast nor trying to! I suppose that part of my lack of desire to own a faster car than a 3.0si is the belief that with an M I'd either be in a ditch in the first 3 miles, or I'd be nervously dabbing the accelerator and having less fun than in a 3.0si. I suppose, in the alternative, I could try to learn to be a better driver and handle the power.
You’d be absolutely fine in an M …. Compared to anything half speedy nowadays they aren’t that fast . Most 3.0tdi would be as quick if not quicker . Crazy how things have moved on … the E85/6 in either 3.0 or M is an old school car with bags of character and that’s why both are fantastic
Aside from vans as a young man, and horrible little petrol manual hatchback hire cars on holiday, every single car I have ever driven let alone owned has been a petrol manual made before 2007 with a 2.0L engine or smaller! I have literally never driven a car with a turbo, a diesel car, an automatic, a hybrid or an electric! I have literally never got near anything from "nowadays" let alone a half speedy thing from nowadays! And not only that I am rarely a passenger either so I haven't even got the experience of sitting in my mates modern car!

I probably would be fine in an M, I'm not a stupid driver... but I do kinda buy into the idea that the fun comes from pushing a car hard, and I can't imagine feeling comfortable pushing an M hard on the road.

Edit - lie - I test drove a 325i from 2006 last week, and despite being proper rough internally and externally, is probably the second best car I have driven in my life after my Z4!

That makes sense, although I've never had a car newer than 2007 either. Although it was a BMW 123d with twin-turbos that I had before I got my first E86.

But after over 5 years of 3.0Si ownership I found I was getting used to the performance and by then my daily was my 330i with the same engine that also performed pretty well.

So an M got advertised at a price I couldn't ignore and I couldn't stop myself from buying it. And yes, the smile in the M is much bigger!

 

[Invictus]

Great replies and information by all, thank you.

I finally got my hands on a 2007 M coupe and took it for a spin - city streets, country lanes and freeway.
At 6'3 I fit fine in the car, and the ergos are really good. A bit tough to see traffic signals when you're first in the queue but there are solutions for that. ("light in sight" e.g.). The chassis is a joy - so responsive, so tight. I loved it.

I found the "M" to be a little TOO aggressive on the city streets, and I would loathe being stuck in stop and go traffic with that engine/gearbox combo. The car was hard to pull away smoothly from lights in first gear - perhaps starting in 2nd would be easier, though I didn't try that (dumb!)
The best analogy I could come up with: It felt like I had four Tigers on leashes and was trying to walk them sedately, and all they wanted to do was charge. Great for the countryside and the track, but exhausting everyday.

The car accelerates very hard from a standstill, but at mid-speeds the power delivery didn't seem THAT much better than the 3.0Si. I also dislike that the battery eats up so much storage space. The view over the hood was fantastic, as the two raised creases really accentuate the "thickness of the car. I have large hands and the wheel felt very good, but man, is it thick! The shifter/clutch action was perfect.

I believe the best choice for me is the 3.0Si coupe. It has better everyday driving dynamics, plenty of power/speed, the same great chassis, a bit more cargo space, a more robust engine and looks great as well. If for some reason I can't find the 3.0Si I could live with an "M", but I'm in no rush (I retire in two years!) and my BMW Motorcycle presently fills the "Thrill Bill" for me just fine!

Again, thanks for the insights and opinions.

 

[Mr Tidy]

The M isn't great to drive in towns and traffic, but that's why I have a daily driver!

If I was buying a Coupe for everyday use I'd probably choose a 3.0Si too. They aren't that much slower, just a bit less highly-strung. The magic in the M is the soundtrack and what happens after 5,000rpm.

FWIW I've already retired, but don't have any bikes any more so my MC is my thrill machine.

 

[Invictus]