By an uncanny coincidence, one of the cars I have on my watch list sold yesterday - a 2006 E85 3.0si Sport Manual - 71k miles, 5 owners, nice spec from a reputable dealer - been for a sale for just over 1 week and advertised at £8,990 - which I suspect wasn't discounted too much given this dealer's position in the market..
E85 values - bottomed out, peaked or something else…?
- Thread starter JimmyRichE85
- Start date
This is a really good summary. I almost bought a Z4 a few times before I got into my first one in 2019, and prices didn't really seem to have moved in the 3-4 year period between me first checking and buying. There was a brief period of silly season during COVID where all ships rose with the tide, and good Z4s were changing hands for strong money. Now we're at the bottom of the curve again as all used car values have declined, and back to where values were when I first started looking in 2016 or so.tomscott said:
The problem with the Z4 (and why I love them as such a bargain), is that they don't really have any one thing going for them that's going to guarantee an increase in value. Sure they will eventually become scarce, but that's true of all cars and in no way a guarantee of appreciation.
They weren't revered by the magazines and coveted by people who couldn't afford them when they were new. That's why they are miles behind the values of the equivalent S2000 or Boxster. They aren't the Gran Turismo cars that my generation lusted after. They don't have the cult following and 'scene' associated with things like MX5s either.
They don't have a history of motorsport use, so kids didn't have posters of them on their bedroom wall that would later turn into impulse purchases in adulthood.
There are a LOT of Z4s still on the road. There are 10s of thousands of Z4s still MOT'd and insured, and 600+ for sale on Autotrader alone. While you might contend that a good example with a more desirable engine is worth more, it's not a 'halo' car that attracts attention and value through scarcity. Look at the values of Sapphire Cosworths back when there were still thousands of humdrum Sapphires on our roads.
More importantly than all of the above, and unlike the cars that have gone stratospheric in recent years, they aren't disappearing from our roads in their thousands through terminal rust and scrappage schemes.
I'd dearly love the Z4 to be a future classic that I could bet my retirement on, but the truth is that I'd have enjoyed a significantly better return by putting my money on the FTSE than by buying a Z4 in 2016. I'm no Mystic Meg, but I just don't see them catching up to similar cars for a long time yet.
All of the above notwithstanding, really good examples of late 3.0Si E85s, with low miles, will still have some appeal to buyers who want and are willing to pay a premium for 'the best' of Z4s. The downside is that this isn't a huge pool of buyers based on everything I've written above, so these cars are likely to hang around for a while relative to things like S2000s and Boxsters. Someone paying £10k for a 3.0Si when the equivalent 987S Boxster is a fundamentally better car in almost every way would really need to want the Z4 to be in the market for one.
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Fred Smith said:
I’m a dies in the wool BMW fanboy and agree that they’ve struggled with their sports cars. The Z4 wasn’t helped by being seen as a competitor for the Boxster / Cayman. They were never really going to compete with them using chassis and engines form a 3 series….although the engines are not necessarily a bad thing given some of the expensive issues with Porsche engines.
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deltasierra
Member
I have had a couple of XK8s, they are flash, but not particularly fun, early cars are cheap enough but rust like hell, the first was reliable but the 2nd had to have a gearbox rebuild at 70k, they are comfortable but no more than my Z4 E85 2.5si the boot is big enough for touring and we drove to Madrid and back last year with no discomfort. Performance is similar but the Z4 is far more fun and will do 38mpg instead of 22mpg, a reliable car can be bought for £2500, selected low milage 6cyl cars cost £5k and up, excellent value if you want 2 seater convertible.
Fred Smith said:
I agree; my E86 looks and feels very unique. It’s powered by one of the best none M engines, is RWD and manual. It’s very pretty, and to me it’s aged better than a Boxster or a Cayman inside and out.
Yes the Porsche will be a better car to drive, but they have some pretty big potential issues. The cost of entry to a good Z4 is pretty reasonable as are the running costs vs. performance. As a used buy they make a lot of sense but I totally get how they ended up in no man’s land when new.
DaveP said:
The difference with the 987 is because its based on the 911 platform its pretty much 80% a 911 so cost to look after is high. Like Z4s buying a Porsche product is a nightmare in this kind of price bracket you might see two 987 same year milage and spec but one might be 5k more. Similar to my point on the M they need maintenance and it's far more costly than a 3.0SI.
Its also really hard to find a well serviced 987 as they are seen as 'basic Porsches' but again they are based on the same platform, same engines just different bore.
I bought a 987 3.2 after I sold my Z4M coupe, I went traveling for a year and spent the money and wanted to buy something cheap to get back into a sports car.
It was a lovely spec car 70k extended leather, Bose, chrono, elec memory seats, manwell etc etc it was £10250 back in 2018, test drive it drove really well no signs of anything. Drove it home and I did 1000 miles in the first weekend and it started making some odd noises... I took it to a Porsche specialist and I knew it needed a bit of maintenance as it was cheap back then. It needed discs and pads all round, the air con condensers needed replacing. Then there are the bits you can't see, the clutch was a little sloppy and it turned out the IMS had gone and oil was leaking though and onto the clutch plate. So just to do these items was going to be 5k as it needed a new clutch and flywheel too. Then onto the noise... they put a camera down to check bore score and what do you know... it wasn't too bad but there was something else causing the noise. At this point it needed a full rebuild and the cost to repair exceeded the cost of the car. I took it back to the company I bought it from and got my money back under consumer law.
The 3.2 is meant to be the safe option too... honestly I thought the 987 was really boring to drive the 3.2 had no power compared to the M and I just didnt get on with it at all so I was kind go glad that it went. I love the axe murder nature of the Z4 and the Boxster is pedestrian in comparison as it just hits every apex does everything you tell it super clinical. To most that is perfect but to me it just had no personality I like a car you can catch on the edge and the Boxster you couldn't get it near the edge it just stuck like glue. Like I say I know im weird but I got my first Z4M at 23 and just learned how to drive quickly in that car.
They came out in 2005 54/05 so you're talking a 20 year old car. Same things apply like the M the suspension will be ready for an overhaul and the cost to replace is a bit more than the Z, discs are big and ventilated and cost similar to the M to replace, similar to the 911 brake lines replacement means steering rack/front subframe out to replace the front lines and engine/gearbox out to replace the rear.. Honestly I could go on but like I mentioned above you could be 10k in and wouldn't know as most of these things you can't see which is why getting an inspection before buying is vital on any Porsche product.
You wouldn't have any bills like that on a Z4 3.0 everything is cheap compared to the M or any Porsche product.
It's a false economy buying a cheap 987 as I learned. If you bought one that had everything done your in much higher price bracket than 10k and then your not far off a 997 but again same principle. You can find early 997s for 20k or up to 40k big price differences and you have to be super careful as I was very lucky being within that 2 week return window.
The 996 that I bought was the opposite as I learned my lesson! It had everything done to it previous to us buying it, some other poor guy had spent nearly 15k on it in the last 2 years and it needed the suspension doing as the 4s vert is a really heavy car its quite noticeable. It was a late 54 and it had over 35ks worth of paper work with it :rofl:
Like I say completely different proposition.
tomscott said:
Totally agree; I was tempted my a 987. They look crap with the roof up but great with the roof down and on the face of it they looks good value for money….and then you start looking into the potential pitfalls and the repair costs can outweigh the cost of the car almost!
It’s a funny world because BMw seem to get panned online for the rod bearing issues in the S54 etc yet people accept the risk of an IMS bearing or bore score. I know two people with 996’s who have both had to take their cars to Hartge; it’s almost just accepted. Crazy world.
The ruining costs are low gonna Z4 especially a none M car. Even after my E92 335i it’s cheap for stuff like discs and pads.
deltasierra
Member
Above is my opinion of Porsche expensive it buy, very expensive to maintain and you cant DIY anything however old the car is you have to use specialists. The same would apply to Aston’s, Bentley, Ferrari and others in the super car league. The long bonnet RWD soft top is what everyone recognizes as a “sports” car, the G89 is on my list for the future.
The reason a 987 is so cheap, is because on the whole, its so expensive to own. The car itself (not owned one but driven one) is fantastic to drive, supremely engineered and brought the 911 to the masses in effect. A masterclass by Porsche. But it can very easily throw four figure bills at you at the drop of a hat. Thats why they are cheap.
I wanted a weekend car, that had a drop top two seats and a bit of grunt, but also one that I can work on and one that doesn't have a huge tax on parts associated with it. Some chap on PH just bought a 10k 987 and has already paid out £1500+ for cross over pipes, coil packs and a wheel alignment (as it was miles off).
The chap that bought my E86 was moving from a NC MX5 and said he was fed up with the cramped cabin and low power, said he never really got to use the chassis any more and the aforementioned were making it a boring car for him.
I think we all know the 3.0si isn't the quickest out the box, nor is it the most dynamic, but its purchased for a particular reason in mind and that is something that has aged well, creature comforts, a load of power on tap, drop top etc.
I wanted a weekend car, that had a drop top two seats and a bit of grunt, but also one that I can work on and one that doesn't have a huge tax on parts associated with it. Some chap on PH just bought a 10k 987 and has already paid out £1500+ for cross over pipes, coil packs and a wheel alignment (as it was miles off).
The chap that bought my E86 was moving from a NC MX5 and said he was fed up with the cramped cabin and low power, said he never really got to use the chassis any more and the aforementioned were making it a boring car for him.
I think we all know the 3.0si isn't the quickest out the box, nor is it the most dynamic, but its purchased for a particular reason in mind and that is something that has aged well, creature comforts, a load of power on tap, drop top etc.
Sort of agree, but also don't. You're buying a much more driver-focused car, which comes with higher bills as a consequence. Complete Vanos failure in an N52 engine would probably cost a significant proportion of the value of the 3.0Si too, and although it's rare it's certainly not unheard of.tomscott said:
E85/86s share many components with cooking E46 models and therefore parts are easy to source and cheap compared with the Cayster. The Cayster is also a more tricky DIY proposition due to limited engine access.
Also while the likes of VANOS and water pumps are well-known failure points on the E85/86, they're nothing like as catastrophic as scored bores or IMS failure.
Having said that, I'd always choose a 986/987 over a non-M E85-86 personally.
Also while the likes of VANOS and water pumps are well-known failure points on the E85/86, they're nothing like as catastrophic as scored bores or IMS failure.
Having said that, I'd always choose a 986/987 over a non-M E85-86 personally.
It’s all relevant. Vanos is so easy to sort compared to an engine rebuild and those engines suffer far more. A lot of those cars suffer from the block cracking too.
I also think the 2.7 variants are more a comparison the 3.2 and 3.4 more like the M but like I say the 2.7 again is the same car just a smaller bore engine all the same issues so you can find yourself in the same hot water.
Depends what you want I suppose. That whole generation was underpowered because they were scared of it taking over the 911. The newer gen with the gt4 and 4.0 gts are a different proposition. It’s just a big increase from 14.5k for the M to 70k.
“The driver focused car element” I think is subjective. They only say that because anyone can drive them quick. The engineering has enabled the car to make you feel like you’re a driving god. In my opinion it takes the fun out of it and I found it boring but that’s why there is choice on the market.
The 911 on the other hand epic and has a lot of the characteristics I like.engine out back makes the car tail happy like the M.
I test drove the 3.0si coupe back in 2011 and decided to get an M instead as it felt more special to drive. The boxster in the 3.2 form was underpowered and not that much fun to drive imo.
Like I mentioned my dad has a 981 GTS and I have to say after spending quite a bit of time behind the wheel that still feels like I could do with more power think that has 325hp. Just one of those the car just doesn’t do what I like so that’s probably why I don’t get on with it. That’s a me issue really again probably because I’ve had M cars for so long.
Looks wise and the interior is stunning it’s miles ahead of the Z but it was 3x more than my M being 55k at the time so it should be.
I also think the 2.7 variants are more a comparison the 3.2 and 3.4 more like the M but like I say the 2.7 again is the same car just a smaller bore engine all the same issues so you can find yourself in the same hot water.
Depends what you want I suppose. That whole generation was underpowered because they were scared of it taking over the 911. The newer gen with the gt4 and 4.0 gts are a different proposition. It’s just a big increase from 14.5k for the M to 70k.
“The driver focused car element” I think is subjective. They only say that because anyone can drive them quick. The engineering has enabled the car to make you feel like you’re a driving god. In my opinion it takes the fun out of it and I found it boring but that’s why there is choice on the market.
The 911 on the other hand epic and has a lot of the characteristics I like.engine out back makes the car tail happy like the M.
I test drove the 3.0si coupe back in 2011 and decided to get an M instead as it felt more special to drive. The boxster in the 3.2 form was underpowered and not that much fun to drive imo.
Like I mentioned my dad has a 981 GTS and I have to say after spending quite a bit of time behind the wheel that still feels like I could do with more power think that has 325hp. Just one of those the car just doesn’t do what I like so that’s probably why I don’t get on with it. That’s a me issue really again probably because I’ve had M cars for so long.
Looks wise and the interior is stunning it’s miles ahead of the Z but it was 3x more than my M being 55k at the time so it should be.
tomscott said:
The 981 interior should be loads nicer because it’s much newer car. Compared with to an early Boxster or Cayman I think the Z interior is much nicer and has aged better.
The 981 is a great looking car. The GTS is one that I particularly like, but it’s a very different price point to a Z.
As someone who is trying to sell a high-miler at the moment it's definitely a dead market. Mine's on 150k but the engine runs perfectly, it's had polybushes, steering upgrade, new starter etc etc and I can't even get a sniff of interest at £4k. I'm slowly starting to think that I might have to go down the route of parting it out which is a shame.
I did however just buy a Z4M for £10k that needs probably £2-3k of work on it but that I can do at my leisure.
I did however just buy a Z4M for £10k that needs probably £2-3k of work on it but that I can do at my leisure.
