DSLR Cameras + Drones

I guess from Tom's samples you could take his line-of-F40s shot, and his Hallin fell shot for similar subjects as yours to compare/discuss.

Lots of Tom's quality is the composition, rule of thirds, using positioning to manipulate the subject, etc etc, but he's also using specific kit to match to the subject - like a lens that can snap incredible low light sunsets adding further value to a well composed shot, or understanding what the aperature + length enables him to capture, thus positioning himself to fill the screen with F40s and have them all in focus, etc.

I'm a basic amateur (but i'll try to come up with something productive to say haha), but i'd say with a line of cars as you have - it's hard to get dramatic effect as they're arranged in such a way that prevents you filling the screen with them, so you end up with lots of tarmac, and lots of grey sky. With some kit, you can make grey sky more interesting (CPL filter,perhaps a better lens may allow you to capture a higher IQ etc.), but probably you want to arrange the cars to suit a photo, and/or position yourself to best capture the subject rather than the stuff you dont want it in the shot. Also mixing people with cars - i guess that kinda makes it a bit harder, i dont really know any 'tried and tested' ways to make that work. perhaps arranging all the people in the foreground and having all the cars behind might make it more interesting (and the cars could be outside the focused area, so there's a blur of coloured cars and some sharp faces or something). Though writing that does remind me there's a difference between styles of photography too - like 'documentary' vs 'fine art' type stuff, so different pros would approach in different ways.

By pure fluke i've done a similar photo, you can see i could do with taking some of my own 'advice' (hence half of it is knowing what to do at the time you take the picture!). Given the choice to take the shot again i'd try to fill more of the screen with the subject (and less tarmac/crap sky), which is perhaps why tom knows from experience to angle the camera a bit.

5160354330_d23b84b8f4_b.jpgParking Lot by JimmyBell, on Flickr

Here's another one i took of the same subject, in a different situation (clearly! :D). i like how i've composed it, but i had a crappy 18-200mm lens that whilst i could CAPTURE it, it's not high quality, so there's blur and no real depth to it. likely a 70-200 L lens, or probably a much longer one would enable me to get a nicer result.

5160354478_7492755cac_b.jpgDiamond 9 by JimmyBell, on Flickr

I'll let tom critique further :D half the battle is knowing what to do in the moment, as moments done tend to last. I know the parking lot photo was me literally walking past with a group of pilot mates, and i took 5 seconds to stop and grab a shot, didn't really have time to figure out the best angle or try a few different things.

Oh and with car photog, the 'done thing' seems to be front quarter with wheel facia facing the camera. Here's a crap car photo of mine, vs a good one (apologies instagram is generally low quality and budget filters used left right and centre):
https://www.instagram.com/p/BczPRSflP1j
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYv-Mvfls5y/
 
the car photo is for a classic car mag (specific owners small circulation c1500)

I did also try a variation on the theme using fewer cars - sadly my mates in the photo too as its a charity thing again for the mag..
 

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Hi Bluespit, are you using the kit lens? I found on my rather older EOS400 that the kit lens was very average and got myself a nifty 50 and was immediately happier with my shots. For me the 50 was great, however, limited in its use.

Please remember as well that an awful lot of good photos that you see aren't as they came out of the camera, have you tried basic editing? Both Snapseed and LR (lightroom) are available on an iPad and are very easy to use. I was using Snapseed but found it was compressing my files at the expense of some sharpness, LR retains the sharpness.

Youtube is great for learning about your camera and its settings, some of the tutorials are very very helpful.

I'm a keen but very novice photographer, but keep practising and trying new things, the results do improve bit by bit. I currently have a Sony A6000 with a kit lens and a 19mm prime. Really enjoy this camera! Am off to NZ is a couple of weeks, camera and tripod packed.
 
Just a point re 6DMKII versus 5DMKIV, point to note that on the 6D you will get more in the image than what you see whilst on the 5D it is a 100% match.

Might not be relevant for everyone, but if you use it for filming for example it could get very irritating that you get extra items on your film which you did not see through the finder.
 
You really need to decide what you are shooting OP.

FF Canons are great I must admit but they are heavy and Lenses are expensive too.

If you want to shoot Motorsport a 70/80D would be a lot better than a MDMK2 as its a lot faster, also the Crop Sensor will go in your favour here too.
 
PVR is correct the viewfinder is 98% vs 100% which means it misses a very small amount of the frame. Its not ideal but it just means you have a bit of wiggle room with your composition. Plus you get what you pay for the 6DMKII is nearly half the price and 90% the quality.

There are a lot of aspects to try and master. The most basic being composition which is key, light and its direction and how to manipulate, technical aspect what you camera and lenses can do for you, be that perspective/distortion and then depth of field, how much of the subject is in focus and what does it do for the viewer. You can use DOF to isolate subjects or to make sure the whole scene is in focus, exposure triangle, what the ISO aperture and shutter speed does and how changing one effects the other. The last part of the puzzle is post processing.

All of the above are art forms in their own right. Composition in photography came from painting, using leading lines, rule of thirds, golden triangle etc etc The tech side can really enable you to push your image making, if you are shooting outside of your cameras abilities then it makes life very difficult and this is the main thing that I get questions about, why have i spent X amount and the images look worse than my phone.

The main thing to learn is light, you can do anything with any modern DSLR like I showed with the 12 year old 40D. Obviously photography is the action of capturing light. Regardless of the gear if there is no light or limited light or you aren't taking control of a scene that is backlit you wont capture the subject well. That is the real skill you bringing back an image in post can create weird results that dont look true to life or just dont work because you cant add light where it didnt exist.

You can know everything about the gear, tech wise, and fumble composition but if the light is right the image can come to life. Figuring out a situation is key and that is the difference between an amateur and a professional. It can save you so much time editing later on or even reduce the need for that skill to a large extent. Time of day, direction of light etc each needs to be tackled differently with exposure compensation or adding/removing light.

One of the best things to start with is in the field is put your hand out in front of you with your palm toward your face and rotate 360deg and you will see where the light is by the tonality on your palm. You look like a moron but to start with it makes image making a lot easier and as you learn you see it automatically.

Putting your subject where the light is or is not in some cases saves time and complicated technical image making as trying to overpower the sun if you are shooting a subject into the sun (silhouetted) is a skill that takes a lot of practice and time to achieve. If the sun is the most powerful factor in photography and if it is very bright its better to put your subject in the shade and have the background where the light is falling and it highlights your subject. Just doing this can create amazing images in comparison to People always think when its sunny thats the best time. As a portrait photographer its my worst nightmare and just want to put a big diffuser over everything.

35912262602_0292930649_c.jpgTSP_Charlotte & Jason-5 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

12924613_943516142413736_613278121974321922_n.jpg


Works with all subjects like this cute lamb :)

14060562761_1f9fdc4396_c.jpgSunbathing Lamb, Lowther Estate, Penrith Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Sometimes its not possible. I was shooting an event here where its was outdoor and the sun was very high and I was documenting didnt want to be moving people around etc. Even with a fill flash the sun is so strong that you cant help getting shadows under the eyes and strong hard highlights.

14786575865_6f71212181_c.jpgLouise's Birthday, Low House Armathwaite by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Anyway with more set up images not just of the moment you can largley remove this by putting the subject in the shade.

14786211732_52119ff420_c.jpgLouise's Birthday, Low House Armathwaite by Tom Scott, on Flickr

14599876270_ddc9aed9ac_c.jpgLouise's Birthday, Low House Armathwaite by Tom Scott, on Flickr

You have to try and get the best out of the kit your using also, all cameras have their downfalls so getting to know what it can do and how far to push it is key. For example if you know that the camera is noisy at 1600ISO or over you need to use a tripod and manually dial the exposure. If the camera isnt great at recovering shadows then you need to bracket and shoot 3-7 images and bring them together later in post or add more light with light modifiers like flash or reflectors etc.

For example when I got the 6DMKII I took it out to test its limits and deliberately underexposed a backlit subject.

36892215041_333648c58e_c.jpgMelanistic Fallow Deer, Dunham Massey, Cheshire out of camera by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Then in post equalized the exposure

36197883834_188d34a135_c.jpgMelanistic Fallow Deer, Dunham Massey, Cheshire by Tom Scott, on Flickr

This way I know that the camera can pull roughly 2-3 stops of light before noise and colour inaccuracy ruin the image. Knowing this means you can expose to the left (underexpose) and pull the shadows back in post later without the use of a light modifier. As you can see in the image its not ideal because the subject is still a bit under exposed. It works both ways your camera might be better at pulling back highlights than shadows.

The 5DMKIII was really bad at pulling shadows so I used to expose the other way as its highlight retention was much better.

Todays cameras give you so much latitude that you can create incredible images from poor exposure but that isnt really the way to do it.

I like to shoot in all sorts of conditions and my favorite is usually the more difficult because you get in my mind more interesting results. Like shooting into the light, placing a subject into the sun and then lighting the subjects. You get a lovely halo around them as they are illuminated and then you fill the subject from the front with a light modifier. This is fairly easy with a static image but with a moving subject its much more difficult. If you have your camera on auto it will either expose for the forground making the sun blow out or the sun making your subject silhouette. Its a situation where you have to take control using manual exposure.

Few car examples

19293558754_b9b4c80b6a_c.jpgPorsche 991, 911 50th Anniversary Edition Coupe by Tom Scott, on Flickr

This one is into the sun

19921180211_f0f3b47e91_c.jpgPorsche 911 Carrera S, Malcesine, Lake Garda, Italy by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Then the same situation with the sun behind me

19728102150_03be15e5ce_c.jpgPorsche 911 Carrera S, Malcesine, Lake Garda, Italy by Tom Scott, on Flickr

19475289336_b45ebed1be_c.jpgPorsche 911, Sustens Pass, Switzerland by Tom Scott, on Flickr

5571322757_be28032a4b_b.jpgBMW E46 M3 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

With this one I clipped the highlights too much so the sun is a little too over exposed but again getting it right with a moving subject is a lot more difficult.

19435420594_b7d2a064bb_c.jpgPorsche 962, BP Leyton House, Group C, twilight race, Silverstone Classics 2015 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Shooting into the sun gives such nice warm results and really creates captivating images

14230241431_b8ed9f63d9_c.jpgBMW Z4M Coupe, Silver Grey, CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

14035313430_70a0207123_c.jpgBMW Z4M Coupe, Silver Grey, CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Same with portraiture.

18738764_1298575960241084_7865862092453014583_o.jpg


If the light is right it really brings the scene to life. Nothing better than that warm tone. Even for just documenting.

9531204752_05006a38e4_c.jpgBMW Z4M Coupe, Z-Fest, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

9531222566_b40dac1c67_c.jpgLotus 16 368, No.1 Philip Walker, 1959, Froilan Gonzalez Trophy for HGPCA pre 62 Grand Prix, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

9531627412_ca52b268d7_c.jpgFerrari 512 LM, No.100, 1970, Chevron B8, Paul Drayson, 1968, FIA Masters Historic Sports Cars, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

9528865777_8d55d96ffd_c.jpgCourage C26S, No.71, Georg Kjallgren, 1989, Group C Endurance, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

9528915131_75fce37ee3_c.jpgAston Martin DBR4, No.12, Wolfgang Friedrichs, 1959, Froilan Gonzalez Trophy for HGPCA Pre 61 Grand Prix, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

When the light is right it makes life so much easier but its often not.

The worst time to shoot is at noon-2pm because the sun is at its highest but again if you have a certain car colour it can really work to your advantage, dark or mono colours like white black silver grey look fantastic. You can get really contrasty images with a lot of clarity and it shows the lines of the car. The higher the sun is the more direct it is and it has less filtering which is what photographers call hard light you get crisp shadows and there is no fall off so the image becomes very striking.

In this case I used the sun as the main key light and then filled the rest with some portable studio lights. You can get the same results with 2 flashes either side. The difficulty is trying to overpower the sun at this time of the day.

6960595748_15ec53888e_c.jpgBMW Z4M Coupe CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

6960600522_5abfb68351_c.jpgBMW Z4M Coupe with CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Or in the worst case scenario you can go to town with post processing and get some really good results.

8796904129_07cfaeb05d_c.jpgBMW Z4M Coupe, Ulswater Boat house, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

To the average person would they ever know?

6468953109_777bd544b0_b.jpgVolkswagen Beetle 1966 Widnes by Tom Scott, on Flickr

8722655151_2ea635918c_c.jpgVW Beetle by Tom Scott, on Flickr

That one I pushed really far but still really like the result.

You can do amazing things in post processing and these days it is a necessity shooting raw as these images come out completely flat and nothing like the original situation. This is so you can pull out all the detail possible to recreate your scene. Colouring an image can really aid but at the end of the day getting it right first time helps.

At the end of the day its about effort putting the hours in and timing your shoots, getting up at stupid O clock to get the results. With most of my shoots I will scout the place first probably the day before then use an app like Sunseeker to show me where the light will be at what time and that helps me plan where it might be best to shoot.

Sometimes you just have to make the effort at stupid hours.

20543400651_b7f1058e34_c.jpgPerseid meteor shower and Milky Way, Hallin Fell, Ullswater, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

About 1-30am

16529633478_dcd39ae7a7_c.jpgMesa Arch, Canyonlands, Utah by Tom Scott, on Flickr

5-30am -12deg

14677355165_8721a5f1f5_c.jpgMoonlit Haweswater Reservoir, Corpse Road, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Full moon landscape you can see the stars. 4-5am ish

12936681_952868148145202_868780093099019503_n.jpg


2am Mt bromo volcanic eruption

Experience is key and making a quick decision and not panicking about what to do. Like with anything to start with it can be a bit nerve wracking but once you have done it numerous times it becomes bread and butter. For me my issues is making more interesting images. Commercial imagery is where the money is and its a bit boring, I often get stuck in a rut and look at other peoples work to give me inspirations. Its not cheating it just aids your own creativity and inspires you to make a better image.

I think you genuinely have to have a passion similar to the cars and that what gets you out and the hunger to make a captivating image etc.

The best advice I can give is just learn the basics and the rules get out and shoot and once you start to improve break all the rules and have fun!
 
Tom, some great shots there :thumbsup:

The green #12 car with the old boy looking down pit lane is a cracking shot!
 
pvr said:
Just a point re 6DMKII versus 5DMKIV, point to note that on the 6D you will get more in the image than what you see whilst on the 5D it is a 100% match.

Might not be relevant for everyone, but if you use it for filming for example it could get very irritating that you get extra items on your film which you did not see through the finder.

Didn't have you as a 'tog! What do you use/like using? Worth noting certainly, but 5D is quite pricey (an doesn't beat the 7D/80D for motorsport i guess), so not sure it adds much value for me. I'm likely to get more out of the flippy screen on the 6DMKII (because i'm an idiot), than the extra specs the 5d may provide, i guess.


hopz121 said:
You really need to decide what you are shooting OP.

FF Canons are great I must admit but they are heavy and Lenses are expensive too.

If you want to shoot Motorsport a 70/80D would be a lot better than a MDMK2 as its a lot faster, also the Crop Sensor will go in your favour here too.

But if FPS is the reason they shine - i guess i can just say 'people used to take motorosport photos well before the days of 10fps+ cameras', so i should be able to work around it.

I think the crop-sensor distance advantage is nice but i imagine i'd have a specific lens for this task anyway so could offset some of that... Unless i whack that same specific lens on an 80d and got easier better results.

soooo long story short - no one setup can do all things well. hah. Seems like 80D+18-135+nifty50 might make a nice option and very cheap, vs 6DMKII and 24-105 + 70-200 + probs still buy a nifty50 again for fun. Former being probably £1000 all in and latter being £2000+ lol, eugh.
 

great post - thanks. once you start digging into the cameras and specs i can really understand what you're saying, and your examples make it obvious, thus very helpful.

Love the post-processed beetle, looks great.
 
jimmybell said:
pvr said:
Just a point re 6DMKII versus 5DMKIV, point to note that on the 6D you will get more in the image than what you see whilst on the 5D it is a 100% match.

Might not be relevant for everyone, but if you use it for filming for example it could get very irritating that you get extra items on your film which you did not see through the finder.

Didn't have you as a 'tog! What do you use/like using? Worth noting certainly, but 5D is quite pricey (an doesn't beat the 7D/80D for motorsport i guess), so not sure it adds much value for me. I'm likely to get more out of the flippy screen on the 6DMKII (because i'm an idiot), than the extra specs the 5d may provide, i guess.


hopz121 said:
You really need to decide what you are shooting OP.

FF Canons are great I must admit but they are heavy and Lenses are expensive too.

If you want to shoot Motorsport a 70/80D would be a lot better than a MDMK2 as its a lot faster, also the Crop Sensor will go in your favour here too.

But if FPS is the reason they shine - i guess i can just say 'people used to take motorosport photos well before the days of 10fps+ cameras', so i should be able to work around it.

I think the crop-sensor distance advantage is nice but i imagine i'd have a specific lens for this task anyway so could offset some of that... Unless i whack that same specific lens on an 80d and got easier better results.

soooo long story short - no one setup can do all things well. hah. Seems like 80D+18-135+nifty50 might make a nice option and very cheap, vs 6DMKII and 24-105 + 70-200 + probs still buy a nifty50 again for fun. Former being probably £1000 all in and latter being £2000+ lol, eugh.

The flippy screen has really evolved my photography onto another level its such a great tool and so far with having two different models and both having a lot of hammer I dont really think it affects the camera body strength that much. This point is generally where the purists sit on the issue. It just helps get angles you wouldnt otherwise.

TBH the 5DMKIV is probably the best all round camera with 8fps it will capture motorsport well and with 30mp gives you lots of room to crop and the AF system is incredible. The 6DMKII is such a great little camera, its a lot lighter but it doesnt feel as robust, has the flippy screen and the full frame sensor, granted not quite as good as the MKIV and neither is the AF system but its a very compelling option.

Having both I always grab the 6DMKII for personal stuff because its light and it has the tilt screen. I also love the wifi and GPS. When out and about I can send it to my phone and edit it in lightroom and send straight away. Love that feature.

Was out with some friends and my god daughter and they wanted an image to send to a parent for a birthday so outputted there and then. Great way to work. Only really use the 5DMKIV for work.

The issue is the expensive L lenses and 200mm certainly doesnt feel particularly long and for motorsport away from trackside may feel a little short but a converter like a 1.4 or 2x will sort this I shot the 70-200 with both for a long time because you can just take them off if need be. It saves you from carting two 2kg lenses all day. The issue with them is they cut the amount of light passing through the lens, the F2.8 turns into an F4 on the 1.4 and the 2x turns it into an F5.6. They also slow the AF of the lens significantly, although ive never really had trouble with it at all but it is there. They are also expensive running 300-500 each.

The other option is the 100-400 MKII which is a similar price but obviously doesnt give you the F2.8.

An 80D solution would also be ideal and telephoto L lenses like the 70-200mm F2.8 give great focal lengths. Still buying 24-70 and 24-105mm L lenses makes no sense in my mind, the only benefit is if you upgrade later but really buying the best for now is better than buying the best for later.

I really hate my 24-105 on crop sensor bodies its super soft and slow, it is one of my all time faves on full frame just performs completely differently. You get as good IQ and the correct focal length from EF-S lenses but good ones are as expensive like the 17-55mm and they dont have the same build or weather sealing. What you do get is the IS which I would take all day long. It really anoys me that Canon still dont make a 24-70mm F2.8 IS regardless of how good you are IS really helps get more keepers. Im still on the MKI version of the 24-70 because I like the backward zoom the hood, the new one is better but I dont think its worth the extra at this point.

It depends which trade off is worthwhile.

The other option that hasnt been spoke about is buying preowned. L lenses take a lot of hammer and many are owned by amateurs that dont use them like pros so are in great condition. London camera exchange is excellent and its amazing how much good gear is available for not a lot of money. Worth weighing up against SLRhut and Digitalrev some things are similar price preowned than they are new from those kinds of companies. If its within 10% I usually buy new but have also bought a lot of preowned gear, amazing how people baby it.

Last option is buying last generation which are still excelent cameras. 5DMKIII, 70D, etc Worth having a look on London Camera Exchange.

Some other niche specialist lenses are nice for documentation, 135mm F2, 35mm, the 50mm you spoke of just be careful with the 1.4 its renowned for having lens issues, any knock will miss align the elements and over time the same thing happens. Its a nice lens tho. 85mm etc primes are lovely. Personal preference but I love the zooms, F2.8 is so narrow on full frame I find thats all I need it gives you a bit more room for error than a 1.4 and 1.2. 1.4 is nice on crop because its similar to a 2.8 lens, the only way to get into good FF DOF levels.

Another interesting choice as a walk around lens is the 18-35mm F1.8 specifically for crop

https://store.digitalrev.com/product/sigma-18-35mm-f-1/MTAwMjY1NQ_A_A

Gives 28-56mm equivalent but you get a 2.8 zoom lens on crop. Only lens of its kind, the length is a bit limiting but gets real F2.8 in a zoom.

jimmybell said:

great post - thanks. once you start digging into the cameras and specs i can really understand what you're saying, and your examples make it obvious, thus very helpful.

Love the post-processed beetle, looks great.

Thanks just nice to share a few images :)
 
I do like the idea of on-the-go uploading type setup, especially when travelling. I kinda wanna document any decent stuff in to flickr and instagram, and it's much easier to have the motivation for such in near-real time rather than taking 1000 shots and spending 2 eveningsd processing them to come out with 10 nice ones :D
 
[ref]jimmybell[/ref], I use a 5DMK3 and my son the 5DMKIV. The IV has the nice features of GPS and WiFi that I don't have but that is all really that I would miss.

The 50 is a nice lens and that is used a lot for filming as it gives the depth of field very nicely.

Other than that, I use the 16-35, 24-105, 70-200 and 100-400.

It does weigh a ton, so I have a backpack from LowePro with the big padded support strap around the waist so I can swivel it around to my front to change the lens without having to put the whole lot down.
 
jimmybell said:
I do like the idea of on-the-go uploading type setup, especially when travelling. I kinda wanna document any decent stuff in to flickr and instagram, and it's much easier to have the motivation for such in near-real time rather than taking 1000 shots and spending 2 eveningsd processing them to come out with 10 nice ones :D

There is quite a good workflow now. You can star rate as you go and if you have an iphone or ipad you can do a full edit with the raw file. Make an local network connection import using a star filter and import only those images to work on.

Really nice way of working compared to how you used to have to work.

Works the same with a laptop too if you use a compact laptop like a 12" macbook it also works really well and you can use the proper suite of apps.
 
Is that workflow something you can do with the 7DMKII and the 80D? Thinking about it - something like that should actually be quite high on my priority list, i tend not to get as much spare time for processing as i used to.

I'm inclined to go for one of those two for now (with 18-135+nifty50+70-200L), get back snapping and upgrade to whatever is the FOTM FF body later in 2018 if i feel i want it.
 
jimmybell said:
Is that workflow something you can do with the 7DMKII and the 80D? Thinking about it - something like that should actually be quite high on my priority list, i tend not to get as much spare time for processing as i used to.

I'm inclined to go for one of those two for now (with 18-135+nifty50+70-200L), get back snapping and upgrade to whatever is the FOTM FF body later in 2018 if i feel i want it.

The 7DMKII has GPS but no wifi, it also has DPAF (autofocus in video) but no touch screen so it renders it a bit useless as the whole point is having control but you cant control it quickly without a touch screen. To get around this you can buy the apple SD or USB to lightning adapter which also work fine and are small so dont take up much room in the bag but obviously its not as 'easy' as just connecting via wifi. Canon also offer a wifi adapter for the 7DMKII. It basically a wifi chip built into an SD card.

https://www.parkcameras.com/p/1080001E/sd-cards/canon/canon-w-e1-wi-fi-adapter?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgN2u9JCl2QIVaijTCh31rQk7EAQYAiABEgKobfD_BwE

Its the oldest camera on the list and was released in Dec 2014 so is lacking a few of the newer features. If its sports there isnt anything apart from the 1DXMKII that can touch it for speed and AF capability. Apart from the AF, FPS build and button layout the 80D is a better all round camera camera. The XXD and 6DMKII have no AF joystick selector instead have a multi controler built into the image select wheel. Whereas the 7DMKII has the same layout as the 5D series with a joystick and AF mode selector switch which makes operation much quicker and they have the better build quality. They are designed to be used together so its easy to go from one to the other.

The 80D is currently a better camera, has a better sensor and isnt far behind in FPS. It also has WIFI and GPS so you can use the above editing workflow for getting images out quickly. The controls are subjective. If you arent used to either body style coming from a XXXD then both will be new, the 80D may be easier to pick up as it shares similar button layout and controls to the entry level bodies with more options for advanced users.

If you feel like going full frame is inevitable in a short period of time then I would just go FF, for the extra 800-1000 it saves headaches down the road of selling gear to upgrade and loosing money and the faf of doing so. TBH i know it sounds stupid but adding a crop body is cheap in comparison, the 80D can be had to like £579

https://www.e-infin.com/uk/item/2911/canon_eos_80d_digital_slr_camera_body_(kit_box)

or a 7DMKII £729

https://www.e-infin.com/uk/item/2382/canon_eos_7d_mark_ii_digital_slr_camera_body_only_

When you consider that is almost a 1/4 the cost of a 5DMKIV its a lot of camera for the money and adding one wont break the bank. On the other hand DSLRs are heavy and carrying two for casual shooting is certainly dedication lol.

For casual shooting I always grab the lightest most usable camera and that ends up being the 6DMKII which is basically a full frame 80D.

The new crop cameras are fantastic and I think you will be more than happy with any of the options. Full frame is amazing and is my choice but for casual shooting the cost of the crop cameras are hard to beat and I really enjoy using my 7DMKII. To get a similar system with a 5DMKIV your looking at at least twice the cost.

Another thing to bare in mind is the 7DMKIII is due for release later this year and usually the XXD would be released first but this year I think it might be the other way round.

hopz121 said:
Id go for an 80D with the 17-55mm Lens instead of the 18-135 :) its optically soo much better.

Also true, I have both and the 18-135 has a great range and is a pretty sharp lens for the range 28-215mm equivalent, the 17-55mm is the sharpest lens in the EF-s line up and offers a decent walk around solution but can be a bit short 27-88mm. Depends whats more important ease of use or best sharpness and aperture.

Nothing is perfect which is the reason I have so much gear use different gear for different situations, whether is for work or for casual shooting. The nice thing about not using the pro stuff is you blend it a lot more, I stick out like a sore thumb most of the time.

Walk around a city with a 70-200mm white lens and you get a lot of unwanted attention.
 
So - perhaps its easier to identify the downsides to an 80d + 18-55 + nifty50 + 70-200 setup, rather than pick based on various upsides to a range of generally stellar kit these days (if most decent bodies can at least attempt most things). Probably look to move to whatever replaces the 6D next year.

  • Faff of upgrading to FF later (though id probably not buy FF until 6DMKIII appears anyway, it seems like thats what im after but doesnt yet exist)
    Loss of IQ vs FF
    Difficulty in getting wider angles with APS-C
 
Well that’s it most are mid cycle or toward the end of cycle.

The 6DMKII was realised July 2017 and is on a 3-4 year cycle it is essentially an entry level FF camera and the only one canon offers so I wouldn’t expect too much in the short term as the 6DMKII was essentially a parts bin special. The 5DMKIV is half way through but the 5DSRMKII Is probably going to arrive this year if not early next year but is very specialist compared to the IV. 80D and 7DMKIII will be replaced in the next year.

It’s hard work being a canon user they offer the best lenses but their bodies are lacking if you look at it on paper. The issue is the decisions for production, like cars are made 2-3 years previous so it doesn’t really matter what happens with the competition they are on their own path.

In practise it’s not quite as cut and dry. The 6DMKII on paper doesn’t look impressive but really is a fun camera and offers a huge amount in a small and cheap package. It has all the things canon stand for it’s very stable and relaiable and is a work horse and offers as much as most people will ever need. But it’s not the best, one of those things what do you need in a camera.

Like I said your in a great position because you technically don’t have to buy into a canon system but there are positives and negatives to having every system as we have spoke about and these companies leap frog each other all the time. So next year canon might have made the best camera on earth and all the Nikon and Sony guys will look over envious... just round and round.

It’s an uneasy time, Nikon has been on the verge of bancrupsy, have had lots of manufacting issues and recalls, hence why they are offering the d850 with every piece of technology known the man to try and get people back. Same with Sony they have something to prove in the market. They are the new kids on the block and are trying to lure people away but really the buying trends aren’t showing that this is having much effect.

Canon are still no1 in sales although they are playing the game much more carefully, just doing what is needed rather than really innovating. I think they are waiting for the mirrorless technology to get to a point they could make a reliable good product for professionals which will then make its way down the line.

Which isn’t like canon as they always were no1 but the market is shrinking at an alarming rate, sales are down 80% compared to 2010.

What pros need and what amateurs want are two different things. Sony mirrorles are hard to justify for a pro because they aren’t reliable, the viewfinders are slow and the battery life is all over the place but the technology is incredible. For a pro you can’t have those sort of compromises. Reliability is key, any pro can do the job with almost any gear within reason but if the product doesn’t inspire confidence or can’t be relied on it means nothing.

An amateur can get away with slow downs or products having shortfalls like the above but if it’s your bread and butter it’s a different story. I generally think this is the trend, I don’t see many pros going mirrorless because the tech isn’t there yet. DSLRs are so well established and are so well developed it’s hard to be innovative.

Interestingly the lack of canon innovation hasn’t gone unnoticed and this was posted today which sort of shows the back and forth considerations people are having.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34491.0

Tbh it’s best not to worry too much and just buy and enjoy by the time you buy something new comes out. With the Crop cameras they are such good value it’s easy to justify and keep their value. Simply because canon is like clockwork always releasing cameras in 2-4 year cycles.

Stolen from a post on CR:

The fact is, right now every system offers something the others don't, and none of them are bad. It's basically impossible now to buy a dud body or an under-performing lens. Some systems give you more cutting-edge functions, but those same systems are also the ones with the more lacking fundamentals. Some systems may only give you the basics, but they do so at a very high quality and/or backed up with better service.

Pretty much sums it up.
 
This is worth watching

[youtube]ZqsCRadQuHk[/youtube]

Really shows what i meant about the 5DMKIII being poor at shadow recovery always noisy loads of banding and purple casts. None of that with the 80D.

Can do much worse than the 80D :thumbsup:
 
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