Dog Training

[exdos]

Works a treat on an Alsatian. Quick snap to remind them then it goes slack again.
On a miniature dachshund however, I have a feeling I'd be left with a body on a lead and the head about 20 ft behind me

I have always used a choke chain on all my Bedlington Terriers (weigh about 8kgs) and after a couple of little tugs when they start lead training as 10 week old pups they have all been perfect there after. The principle of a choke chain is pure Pavlovian simplicity.

 

[john-e89]

Works a treat on an Alsatian. Quick snap to remind them then it goes slack again.
On a miniature dachshund however, I have a feeling I'd be left with a body on a lead and the head about 20 ft behind me

I have always used a choke chain on all my Bedlington Terriers (weigh about 8kgs) and after a couple of little tugs when they start lead training as 10 week old pups they have all been perfect there after. The principle of a choke chain is pure Pavlovian simplicity.

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

 

[enuff_zed]

Works a treat on an Alsatian. Quick snap to remind them then it goes slack again.
On a miniature dachshund however, I have a feeling I'd be left with a body on a lead and the head about 20 ft behind me

I have always used a choke chain on all my Bedlington Terriers (weigh about 8kgs) and after a couple of little tugs when they start lead training as 10 week old pups they have all been perfect there after. The principle of a choke chain is pure Pavlovian simplicity.

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

The name is misleading really.
If you put them on the right way round they hang loose and only tighten when the dog pulls.
Or if you give it a sharp tug it pulls the dog up and then immediately goes slack again.
An obedient dog need never wear it as tight as an average collar is, so in that case it is in fact less restrictive.

 

[exdos]

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

Nobody should keep any animal without learning about how to look after them properly BEFORE they get one. Choke chains are not cruel if you learn how to use them properly. You might remember Barbara Woodhouse, the dog trainer who used to be on TV with training methods, and she used to demonstrate how the choke chain should be used properly. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OkeSO_c3FY

All trainable animals need to learn discipline and learn very quickly by the Pavlovian response. When the choke chain is introduced to a dog it should be reinforced with a voice command, and a dog will then only need a voice command thereafter. Simples.

Your neighbour would do well to realise that she has one of the most biddable breeds for training to command, but through the inappropriate use of the harness and the lack of discipline she's producing a sled-dog that just wants to pull. An experienced dog trainer who knows how to use a choke chain properly would be able to make your neighbour's dog walk properly on a short lead in minutes.

Same as rearing kids: dogs need proper and fair discipline otherwise they become brats.

 

[Argyll Andy]

Works a treat on an Alsatian. Quick snap to remind them then it goes slack again.
On a miniature dachshund however, I have a feeling I'd be left with a body on a lead and the head about 20 ft behind me

I have always used a choke chain on all my Bedlington Terriers (weigh about 8kgs) and after a couple of little tugs when they start lead training as 10 week old pups they have all been perfect there after. The principle of a choke chain is pure Pavlovian simplicity.

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

John, I used to own an ice cream van and customers used to bring their dogs out for an ice cream.

Most would sit there well behaved but one guy had a springer spaniel and the thing was that excited it jumped straight through the hatch and in the van with me. A 6’2 large Scotsman and a mental ice cream craving springer spaniel in a tin box on the back of a Ford transit wasn’t a pretty picture

The guy was absolutely affronted

 

[Dav the wheel nut]

Calling them choke chains is actually a misnomer as they are now referred to as check chains, as this is their purpose, to check the dog not to choke it.

 

[enuff_zed]

Calling them choke chains is actually a misnomer as they are now referred to as check chains, as this is their purpose, to check the dog not to choke it.

Maybe now yes, but when I was heavily involved with them they were choke chains.
Is this yet another example of the 'let's change everything so we don't offend someone' brigade at work.

NB. Not aimed at you in any way. I agree, they do check the dog.

 

[Dav the wheel nut]

Maybe now yes, but when I was heavily involved with them they were choke chains.
Is this yet another example of the 'let's change everything so we don't offend someone' brigade at work.

Or maybe they were incorrectly named in the first place.
I’ve owned and trained German Shepherds for over 30 years and when used correctly they are an invaluable tool.

 

[john-e89]

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

Nobody should keep any animal without learning about how to look after them properly BEFORE they get one. Choke chains are not cruel if you learn how to use them properly. You might remember Barbara Woodhouse, the dog trainer who used to be on TV with training methods, and she used to demonstrate how the choke chain should be used properly. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OkeSO_c3FY

All trainable animals need to learn discipline and learn very quickly by the Pavlovian response. When the choke chain is introduced to a dog it should be reinforced with a voice command, and a dog will then only need a voice command thereafter. Simples.

Your neighbour would do well to realise that she has one of the most biddable breeds for training to command, but through the inappropriate use of the harness and the lack of discipline she's producing a sled-dog that just wants to pull. An experienced dog trainer who knows how to use a choke chain properly would be able to make your neighbour's dog walk properly on a short lead in minutes.

Same as rearing kids: dogs need proper and fair discipline otherwise they become brats.

So it would seem. Our neighbour is such a nice lady and recently widowed so I guess she thinks she’s doing the right with a harness, and it’s a fact she doesn’t discipline the dog very much, if ever tbh. I’d hate to think what Bramble would do if she got off her lead, she’s so excitable she’d probably get run over or something, and we have big, I mean big, farm machinery driving past everyday.

 

[john-e89]

I have always used a choke chain on all my Bedlington Terriers (weigh about 8kgs) and after a couple of little tugs when they start lead training as 10 week old pups they have all been perfect there after. The principle of a choke chain is pure Pavlovian simplicity.

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

The name is misleading really.
If you put them on the right way round they hang loose and only tighten when the dog pulls.
Or if you give it a sharp tug it pulls the dog up and then immediately goes slack again.
An obedient dog need never wear it as tight as an average collar is, so in that case it is in fact less restrictive.

True, I’ve seen Alsatians walking with a loose lead plenty of times, as said it’s now you bring them up. I’m actually s**t scared of big dogs, really scared, one bit me when I was about 6, it’s teeth met through my wrist, I’ve crapped myself ever since, so imagine when last year we stopped off at friends in Cheltenham on the way to Cornwall and their daughters fully grown Rottweiler came to greet us, hers and Dan Robsons the England rugby player, I truly almost peed myself, I tried not to look scared but I was shitting myself like never before. Well he was the softest soppiest dog you could meet, I spent the evening with him round my feet, what a fantastic animal, not a hint of aggression, I could have taken him home..! I guess it’s how you bring them up.

 

[john-e89]

I have always used a choke chain on all my Bedlington Terriers (weigh about 8kgs) and after a couple of little tugs when they start lead training as 10 week old pups they have all been perfect there after. The principle of a choke chain is pure Pavlovian simplicity.

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

John, I used to own an ice cream van and customers used to bring their dogs out for an ice cream.

Most would sit there well behaved but one guy had a springer spaniel and the thing was that excited it jumped straight through the hatch and in the van with me. A 6’2 large Scotsman and a mental ice cream craving springer spaniel in a tin box on the back of a Ford transit wasn’t a pretty picture

The guy was absolutely affronted

If that springer was anything like this one I can imagine Andy... :lol: Bull in a tea shop 3 fold..! She’s still a very young dog, crazy well looked after but no discipline.

 

[exdos]

IMHO Springer Spaniels are totally unsuitable as pets unless the owner is prepared to give them LOTS of work and plenty of obedience training otherwise they act like headless chickens with boundless energy.

 

[enuff_zed]

Interesting, I always thought a choker chain was cruel. Having said that a neighbour has THE most gorgeous chocolate springer spaniel, she’s so happy and full of life but damn she will not stop pulling or even getting on her back legs to walk she pulls so hard on her harness.

I must point out I have zero experience with dogs unfortunately , my wife is allergic, otherwise I’d have a Collie cross, so when I say a choker being cruel, that’s based on the square root of zero knowledge.

The name is misleading really.
If you put them on the right way round they hang loose and only tighten when the dog pulls.
Or if you give it a sharp tug it pulls the dog up and then immediately goes slack again.
An obedient dog need never wear it as tight as an average collar is, so in that case it is in fact less restrictive.

True, I’ve seen Alsatians walking with a loose lead plenty of times, as said it’s now you bring them up. I’m actually s**t scared of big dogs, really scared, one bit me when I was about 6, it’s teeth met through my wrist, I’ve crapped myself ever since, so imagine when last year we stopped off at friends in Cheltenham on the way to Cornwall and their daughters fully grown Rottweiler came to greet us, hers and Dan Robsons the England rugby player, I truly almost peed myself, I tried not to look scared but I was shitting myself like never before. Well he was the softest soppiest dog you could meet, I spent the evening with him round my feet, what a fantastic animal, not a hint of aggression, I could have taken him home..! I guess it’s how you bring them up.

Indeed John,
My old man got his first police dog when I was 8.
He used to go to the football at Brighton when there was standing only and just a line of police dogs kept the rival fans apart. That dog would spend nearly 3 hours on it's back legs, hanging on the choke chain, just itching to feast on a football lout.
Then he'd come home and I could mess about with my head in his mouth, no issues at all.
Was a bit of a nutter though. They used to train them to retrieve articles but then bark if they found something they couldn't bring back. Sent Bruno off into a warehouse and he dragged back the supposedly immovable 56lb weight (like they use to weigh down market stalls)!
They very much react to how you react to them. I'd have another tomorrow if we had the space and lifestyle.

 

[john-e89]

The name is misleading really.
If you put them on the right way round they hang loose and only tighten when the dog pulls.
Or if you give it a sharp tug it pulls the dog up and then immediately goes slack again.
An obedient dog need never wear it as tight as an average collar is, so in that case it is in fact less restrictive.

True, I’ve seen Alsatians walking with a loose lead plenty of times, as said it’s now you bring them up. I’m actually s**t scared of big dogs, really scared, one bit me when I was about 6, it’s teeth met through my wrist, I’ve crapped myself ever since, so imagine when last year we stopped off at friends in Cheltenham on the way to Cornwall and their daughters fully grown Rottweiler came to greet us, hers and Dan Robsons the England rugby player, I truly almost peed myself, I tried not to look scared but I was shitting myself like never before. Well he was the softest soppiest dog you could meet, I spent the evening with him round my feet, what a fantastic animal, not a hint of aggression, I could have taken him home..! I guess it’s how you bring them up.

Indeed John,
My old man got his first police dog when I was 8.
He used to go to the football at Brighton when there was standing only and just a line of police dogs kept the rival fans apart. That dog would spend nearly 3 hours on it's back legs, hanging on the choke chain, just itching to feast on a football lout.
Then he'd come home and I could mess about with my head in his mouth, no issues at all.
Was a bit of a nutter though. They used to train them to retrieve articles but then bark if they found something they couldn't bring back. Sent Bruno off into a warehouse and he dragged back the supposedly immovable 56lb weight (like they use to weigh down market stalls)!
They very much react to how you react to them. I'd have another tomorrow if we had the space and lifestyle.

That’s a brilliant way of putting it, ‘They react to how you react to them’, a perfect line to remember if you’re going to get a dog I’d think.

It’s tragic but that Rottweiler died late last year, he was only 4, had some sort of seizure I think, if you looked in his eyes you could see how soft he was, such a shame. I can see why you’d want another Alsatian.

 

[IRD]

Training aids if used inappropriately can be cruel. It depends on the trainer. We had a Gordon Setter. She came to us as a rescue dog at 12 months old and was out of control needing lots of off the lead exercise. I was still working when we first had her and was getting up at 4 am to walk her before taking her with me to work. My problem was that I never knew whether she would come back when recalled. We live in a rural area. Fortunately the land is mainly arable but she could be gone for 3 hours or more. I had reached the point where I thought I would have to find a new home for her. Then a friend suggested one of these electronic collars which are now banned. Used badly they can be very cruel. However, you can set the level very low, which is what I did. The one I had operated up to a distance of 150 metres. So when she took off I gave the recall command and if she didn’t respond I pressed the button which gave her a mild shock. It took less than a week for me to resolve the problem and she turned into one of the most loving obedient dogs I have ever had. So yes some of these trading aids can be cruel but most if used properly especially with wayward dogs can be a great help. No doubt some will disagree!

 

[exdos]

So yes some of these trading aids can be cruel but most if used properly especially with wayward dogs can be a great help. No doubt some will disagree!

All animals seem to quickly learn by the Pavlovian response. Barbed wire works for cattle as does electric fencing for cattle, horses and sheep. Is the use of such physical stimuli to train animals intrinisically cruel? I don't think so.

 

[ronk]

Most of us in the older age group got the odd whack with the Cane at school! I don’t think it’s done me any lasting harm.

 

[IRD]

Most of us in the older age group got the odd whack with the Cane at school! I don’t think it’s done me any lasting harm.

I was one of those kept in line by a bit of firm discipline too. How times have changed. I spent over 30 years as a headteacher and in teacher training. I saw a big deterioration in children (and parents’) behaviour. Hence we have the current snowflake generation. Mind you as my wife says I am a curmudgeonly old b***er. :roll:

 

[ronk]

How many times did I suffer from the near miss of the blackboard rubber?
Were they intentional near misses or bad shots.

A lot of my teachers were ex military so had a no nonsense approach to discipline .

Training is all about consequences of actions I suppose, in any species.