Does yours look poop too ? :-(

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....I'm totally in love with my z4...as said above, the interior completely wipes the floor with the TT, but I don't compare the drive, as they are totally different types of driving experience :D
 
original guvnor said:
Garvin said:
Mine's the same. This sort of design detail and build is why Audi have inexorably 'hunted down' BMW over the years. Audis, I'm afraid, are engineered much more 'elegantly' and built a damn sight better - once they dynamically match BMW and 'excite' as much it may spell an inexorable decline for BMW unless they up their game.
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I'm sorry but that's a load of old codswallop.

Audi have just followed BMW's lead and started to produce cars that appeal to potential BMW customers having seen the success BMW were having. BMW have hardly dropped the ball - they are selling record amounts of cars, as are Audi and Merc. The sector they operate in has just seen huge growth in recent decades as consumer wealth across the major economies has rapidly increased. Do you really think that VAG group have a massively higher bargaining power than BMW? Maybe a little, based on production volumes, but not a lot. Therefore the development budget they have available for a car in a particular segment will be very similar to BMW and Merc if they want to make a return and margin that matches their peers. Look how closing their pricing is to BMW for an equivalent model and trim! Audi choose to spend a higher proportion of that on the driver environment (aka the interior). So if they spend more on interiors that means somewhere else corners are cut. In Audi's case it is the handling and under-the-skin engineering. That's why the cars are less engaging to drive with inferior power trains and is also why they have a less than stellar reputation for reliability. Under the skin you are basically driving a car with components designed as much for a Seat/Skoda and VW as you are an Audi. BMW and Merc don't do that. Each of the big 3 German companies has their own niche which they target - with Audi it is for 'magpie' people who like shiny, blingy things and want to go quick in a straight line in all weather but are less bothered about handling prowess. With BMW it tends to be people who are more bothered about a sporting drive and great engine more than looks or interior and Merc is aimed at the slightly older customer who thinks BMW and Audi are young upstarts! A lot of stereotyping and caricatures in there but deliberately so to illustrate the point.
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Thanks for that enlightening subjective view. I admire your obvious passion for the marque but the approach of defending it by trying to denigrate quite credible 'opposition' and their customer base clearly demonstrates a certain lack of objectivity.
 
We've got a Q5 as well in the family and I have to say its loads better than BMW interior build quality wise. Went to look at the new A3 last week and that's really nice in the hatch and even better in the saloon (specced up right, as with any car). If Audi brought out a decent looking two seater (don't like the TT at all, and can't afford the R8 :( ) I'd have that over another zed easily.
 
Yes but that's all you ever get from Audi owners is "it's got a lovely interior". I buy a car to drive not to admire the plastics in the cabin. That's why I'll never buy Audi.
 
Garvin said:
original guvnor said:
Garvin said:
Mine's the same. This sort of design detail and build is why Audi have inexorably 'hunted down' BMW over the years. Audis, I'm afraid, are engineered much more 'elegantly' and built a damn sight better - once they dynamically match BMW and 'excite' as much it may spell an inexorable decline for BMW unless they up their game.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but that's a load of old codswallop.

Audi have just followed BMW's lead and started to produce cars that appeal to potential BMW customers having seen the success BMW were having. BMW have hardly dropped the ball - they are selling record amounts of cars, as are Audi and Merc. The sector they operate in has just seen huge growth in recent decades as consumer wealth across the major economies has rapidly increased. Do you really think that VAG group have a massively higher bargaining power than BMW? Maybe a little, based on production volumes, but not a lot. Therefore the development budget they have available for a car in a particular segment will be very similar to BMW and Merc if they want to make a return and margin that matches their peers. Look how close their pricing is to BMW for an equivalent model and trim! Audi choose to spend a higher proportion of that on the driver environment (aka the interior). So if they spend more on interiors that means somewhere else corners are cut. In Audi's case it is the handling and under-the-skin engineering. That's why the cars are less engaging to drive with inferior power trains and is also why they have a less than stellar reputation for reliability. Under the skin you are basically driving a car with components designed as much for a Seat/Skoda and VW as you are an Audi. BMW and Merc don't do that. Each of the big 3 German companies has their own niche which they target - with Audi it is for 'magpie' people who like shiny, blingy things and want to go quick in a straight line in all weather but are less bothered about handling prowess. With BMW it tends to be people who are more bothered about a sporting drive and great engine more than looks or interior and Merc is aimed at the slightly older customer who thinks BMW and Audi are young upstarts! A lot of stereotyping and caricatures in there but deliberately so to illustrate the point.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that enlightening subjective view. I admire your obvious passion for the marque but the approach of defending it by trying to denigrate quite credible 'opposition' and their customer base clearly demonstrates a certain lack of objectivity.
Click to expand...

What and yours wasn't subjective?
 
TitanTim said:
Maniac said:
I don't know who cited the TT as being a car that handles well. It's a rubbish drive, all the excitement and dynamics of a sponge.
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Your not thinking if the old TT are you :poke:

Tim.
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Nope my brother had the latest shape 3.2 V6 PDK and he sold it within a year as it bored him to tears.
 
original guvnor said:
What and yours wasn't subjective?
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When a poster launches in with words such as "codswallop" in their first sentence one just senses that it will be followed by a rant fuelled by emotion rather than objectivity. You didn't disappoint. Not only that you appear so blinded by your love of all things BMW that you missed the point completely confusing performance with elegant engineering and then went wildly OT towards lifestyles and the like.

I have owned Audis and BMWs and the attention to detail on Audis is far superior to that of BMW - paint finish, panel gaps, interiors. The hidden away design and engineering is much better as well - look at the inner wing and door hinge treatment on Audis compared to BMWs and you will see the difference in attention to detail. You may claim this is irrelevant for a 'machine' and for end function/performance that's probably correct. But the engineering of Audis is, nevertheless, more 'elegant' because of these sorts of details and appeals to the eye much better.

Finally, powertrains. I fear you let yourself down badly here with your claims of Audi inferiority. Most who drive, or have driven, RS machines might take issue with you here! Even Lamborghini owners/drivers perhaps!
 
Oooh, I think we've got a fight ;) Calm down people, it's just a commercial :) We all love our cars and everyones point is valid as its likely their experience, though clearly if judgments are made without experience that's a bit crap.

Still... Garvin, for your Audi protestations... you're driving a BMW :) Well done that man :D
 
Garvin said:
original guvnor said:
What and yours wasn't subjective?
Click to expand...
When a poster launches in with words such as "codswallop" in their first sentence one just senses that it will be followed by a rant fuelled by emotion rather than objectivity. You didn't disappoint. Not only that you appear so blinded by your love of all things BMW that you missed the point completely confusing performance with elegant engineering and then went wildly OT towards lifestyles and the like.

I have owned Audis and BMWs and the attention to detail on Audis is far superior to that of BMW - paint finish, panel gaps, interiors. The hidden away design and engineering is much better as well - look at the inner wing and door hinge treatment on Audis compared to BMWs and you will see the difference in attention to detail. You may claim this is irrelevant for a 'machine' and for end function/performance that's probably correct. But the engineering of Audis is, nevertheless, more 'elegant' because of these sorts of details and appeals to the eye much better.

Finally, powertrains. I fear you let yourself down badly here with your claims of Audi inferiority. Most who drive, or have driven, RS machines might take issue with you here! Even Lamborghini owners/drivers perhaps!
Click to expand...

You do talk nonsense. There wasn't any emotion in my reply to your post at all. It was merely pointing out how ridiculous your first post was which claimed that BMW were slipping up because of their inelegant engineering and interiors. I''m sure record levels of sales will comfort them. I can assure you although I drive a BMW, I have no particular love of the marque. I prefer them to Audis because I like rear wheel drive and I like a car with sportier handling characteristics, but you won't have to search my previous posts for long to see me being critical of the brand. So don't make lazy, ill-informed assumptions about me please. I didn't go wildly OT either, I said that I had deliberately caricatured to illustrate a point about market segmentation. It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, something you perhaps didn't pick up on.

RS machines certainly have nice power plants but no so much the thousands of other Audi's you see driving up and down the roads everyday. The B7 RS4 engine for example that is in the R8 and the variation of that engine in the RS5 and current RS4, but was that originally developed by Cosworth and so therefore not in-house? Their V10 was a Lamborghini developed engine. BMW have built award-winning engines in 6,8,10 and 12-cylinder configurations in-house, as do AMG. Mclaren F1 engine for example? BMW M, Pagani Zonda engine? Mercedes AMG.

If Audi's engineering is so 'elegant' it must be form over function because why else is only 1 Audi in the JD Power 2013 top 50 then? Even then at 32nd place. BMW doesn't fare a whole lot better either but it does beat Audi in no of cars featuring higher up the ranking and in the overall manufacturer standings.
 
original guvnor said:
Yes but that's all you ever get from Audi owners is "it's got a lovely interior". I buy a car to drive not to admire the plastics in the cabin. That's why I'll never buy Audi.
Click to expand...

Sorry OG but that's a very blinkered view. :roll:
My Q5 looks fantastic in the special edition with 20" rims and the drive is lovely and smooth (petrol 211 bhp engine) and 0-60 of 7 seconds for a 2 tonne car isn't bad.
I know you love your M OG but it ain't the be all and end all, there is life after BMW!!
 
original guvnor said:
Garvin said:
original guvnor said:
What and yours wasn't subjective?
Click to expand...
When a poster launches in with words such as "codswallop" in their first sentence one just senses that it will be followed by a rant fuelled by emotion rather than objectivity. You didn't disappoint. Not only that you appear so blinded by your love of all things BMW that you missed the point completely confusing performance with elegant engineering and then went wildly OT towards lifestyles and the like.

I have owned Audis and BMWs and the attention to detail on Audis is far superior to that of BMW - paint finish, panel gaps, interiors. The hidden away design and engineering is much better as well - look at the inner wing and door hinge treatment on Audis compared to BMWs and you will see the difference in attention to detail. You may claim this is irrelevant for a 'machine' and for end function/performance that's probably correct. But the engineering of Audis is, nevertheless, more 'elegant' because of these sorts of details and appeals to the eye much better.

Finally, powertrains. I fear you let yourself down badly here with your claims of Audi inferiority. Most who drive, or have driven, RS machines might take issue with you here! Even Lamborghini owners/drivers perhaps!
Click to expand...

You do talk nonsense. There wasn't any emotion in my reply to your post at all. It was merely pointing out how ridiculous your first post was which claimed that BMW were slipping up because of their inelegant engineering and interiors. I''m sure record levels of sales will comfort them. I can assure you although I drive a BMW, I have no particular love of the marque. I prefer them to Audis because I like rear wheel drive and I like a car with sportier handling characteristics, but you won't have to search my previous posts for long to see me being critical of the brand. So don't make lazy, ill-informed assumptions about me please. I didn't go wildly OT either, I said that I had deliberately caricatured to illustrate a point about market segmentation. It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, something you perhaps didn't pick up on.

RS machines certainly have nice power plants but no so much the thousands of other Audi's you see driving up and down the roads everyday. The B7 RS4 engine for example that is in the R8 and the variation of that engine in the RS5 and current RS4, but was that originally developed by Cosworth and so therefore not in-house? Their V10 was a Lamborghini developed engine. BMW have built award-winning engines in 6,8,10 and 12-cylinder configurations in-house, as do AMG. Mclaren F1 engine for example? BMW M, Pagani Zonda engine? Mercedes AMG.

If Audi's engineering is so 'elegant' it must be form over function because why else is only 1 Audi in the JD Power 2013 top 50 then? Even then at 32nd place. BMW doesn't fare a whole lot better either but it does beat Audi in no of cars featuring higher up the ranking and in the overall manufacturer standings.
Click to expand...
The use of words such as codswallop, nonsense and ridiculous are, without doubt, emotional responses. You can disagree with my posts that is your prerogative but to class them as codswallop, nonsense and ridiculous is just the sort of thing to be expected of anonymous keyboard warriors on a lot of forums trying to 'bully' their points across rather than entering sensible, objective debate. I contend that the points I make are not deserving of your assessment.

I see you are still struggling with this thread which is about detail design and engineering that "looks poop" and not at all about market share, market segmentation, powertrains, performance etc. and all other things you have gone OT about.
 
Garvin said:
I see you are still struggling with this thread which is about detail design and engineering that "looks poop" and not at all about market share, market segmentation, powertrains, performance etc. and all other things you have gone OT about.
Click to expand...

Whatever, I'm going to take Mark Twain's advice. I've been on plenty of Forum meets and met most of the main contributors on here. Have you? So I'm no anonymous keyboard warrior. You started the market share debate, not me remember.
 
lux good said:
original guvnor said:
Yes but that's all you ever get from Audi owners is "it's got a lovely interior". I buy a car to drive not to admire the plastics in the cabin. That's why I'll never buy Audi.
Click to expand...

Sorry OG but that's a very blinkered view. :roll:
My Q5 looks fantastic in the special edition with 20" rims and the drive is lovely and smooth (petrol 211 bhp engine) and 0-60 of 7 seconds for a 2 tonne car isn't bad.
I know you love your M OG but it ain't the be all and end all, there is life after BMW!!
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Fair point Luxy! Although don't confuse my love of my M with a love of BMW!
 
Garvin said:
Carol M said:
Can I just say that OG is no anonymous keyboard warrior. Far from it.
*sits back down*
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Then he should know better not to behave as one!
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Well I won't if you agree to stop posting half-baked theories about BMW decline when they are posting record results. Deal?
 
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