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- Thread starter Carol M
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These stories are cropping up more and more often. The homeowner gets arrested and eventually charges are dropped. I get the impression that the Police's hands are tied to a certain extent, which can only mean that perhaps the law needs to be clarified on the matter. I think a lot of people would do the same, in the same circumstances, and I think that many people would find it difficult to condemn these individuals.Carol M said:
I would hazard a guess that even those who don't agree would probably think differently if - God forbid - it ever happened to them.
Carol M said:
I thought this might have been about the Olympics
However, I agree entirely. It should be a legal right to defend your property if it is illegally entered - if you happen to have a legally held shot gun then to the crims I say 'nae luck, you deserve what's coming to you'.
As far as I'm concerned if you knowingly trespass on somebody's private domestic property to commit aggravated burglary (or any kind of crime) then you deserve everything you get.
My uncle runs a shop in the North East. A few years back, it was broken into a dozen times in an 18 month period. He had alarm systems, CCTV, the works. His insurance eventually refused to cover him for theft.
The Police knew who was doing it, but couldn't do anything unless they caught them in the act. My uncle took to sleeping in the shop. They broke in and gave him a good hiding. Eventually, he decided to cement broken glass bottles onto the top of the 7ft brick wall which surrounded the yard to the rear of his shop, which was always their access point. Two weeks later, they tried to break in and one of them lacerated his hand. He ended up in A&E, where the Police arrested him... and my uncle, who was taken to court and convicted (can't remember what for). He was also told to remove the dangerous glass from the wall. The Policeman who arrested him told him - off the record - "Well done"... but their hands were tied because the "victim" made a complaint.
The Police knew who was doing it, but couldn't do anything unless they caught them in the act. My uncle took to sleeping in the shop. They broke in and gave him a good hiding. Eventually, he decided to cement broken glass bottles onto the top of the 7ft brick wall which surrounded the yard to the rear of his shop, which was always their access point. Two weeks later, they tried to break in and one of them lacerated his hand. He ended up in A&E, where the Police arrested him... and my uncle, who was taken to court and convicted (can't remember what for). He was also told to remove the dangerous glass from the wall. The Policeman who arrested him told him - off the record - "Well done"... but their hands were tied because the "victim" made a complaint.
I hate to say it, especially because of what has happened a lot of times now, but the US approach to defence of your property is the right one.
Mrlozzer - that is a terrible story. You're uncle must've felt so impotent, and that's so wrong. If something so unjust happened to me I would probably leave the country. I kid you not.
Mrlozzer - that is a terrible story. You're uncle must've felt so impotent, and that's so wrong. If something so unjust happened to me I would probably leave the country. I kid you not.
He's run the shop since the early 1980s. It's his family's livelihood. His health had started to suffer really badly from the stress of the situation, which wasn't helped when he was attacked either... the sad thing was that he knew beforehand that he would get into trouble if something happened. He just didn't feel he had any other option - he wasn't willing just to let himself be a victim.Bing said:
As I say, he never blamed the Police. This was at a time when the North East was like the Wild West - riots, ram raids in a different department store every night of the week. They patrolled the area when they could. The problem was that the Law gave him so little protection - and it seems to be just as confused now....
It's a shame that the UK have legislated in such a way that a man robbing someone else's house is protected from harm, whilst the man being robbed will get the full clobber of the law for protecting his own home.
Sh1t state of affairs to be in. But unfortunately such a massive issue for us to get right
I'd have shot the b@dtards
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Sh1t state of affairs to be in. But unfortunately such a massive issue for us to get right
I'd have shot the b@dtards
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The police need to arrest the home-owners for good reasons including their own protection.
The crime and evidence protocols require an arrest as part of the process of gathering evidence. For example taking away the shotgun and examining it. If it turned out that the 'burglars' were in fact people the owners had an issue with over say a dodgy drugs deal it would be impossible to prosecute without the protocols being followed exactly.
It is also important that the owners are interviewed fairly. It is considered possible if unlikely that a member of the force might be involved somehow, the process being very formal makes it difficult for a bent copper to twist any investigation in their favour.
All in all the arrests are a good thing and mean very little at this stage in an investigation.
(I am not a lawyer or a copper, I just read up on it a while back)
The crime and evidence protocols require an arrest as part of the process of gathering evidence. For example taking away the shotgun and examining it. If it turned out that the 'burglars' were in fact people the owners had an issue with over say a dodgy drugs deal it would be impossible to prosecute without the protocols being followed exactly.
It is also important that the owners are interviewed fairly. It is considered possible if unlikely that a member of the force might be involved somehow, the process being very formal makes it difficult for a bent copper to twist any investigation in their favour.
All in all the arrests are a good thing and mean very little at this stage in an investigation.
(I am not a lawyer or a copper, I just read up on it a while back)
Adamski said:It's a shame that the UK have legislated in such a way that a man robbing someone else's house is protected from harm, whilst the man being robbed will get the full clobber of the law for protecting his own home.
Sh1t state of affairs to be in. But unfortunately such a massive issue for us to get right
I'd have shot the b@dtards
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am not sure how true this is. I get your point but the law must apply everywhere. If we allowed a pass for any violence done by a householder who claimed the victim was on his turf and unauthorised then I suspect there would be more injustice rather than less. I don't think that letting people murder the drunk bloke they brought back from the pub is a very good idea.
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Bing said:
+1
You should be able to legally defend your family and property from an unprovoked intruder, without having to worry about getting a criminal record.
Finisterre said:
This, and your point above it, are very well made Finisterre. And of course no-one has been charged in this case yet. I guess the point we are all making, though not explicitly, is that should it be proven that the people entering your property were doing so illegally, and threatening the safety of your possessions, property and / or family, then you should not end up being charged for defending your home.
I agree with you Bing.
I am just a bit suspicious of simple solutions.
I am just a bit suspicious of simple solutions.
This interests me as it's a big worry to my folks & whilst we've had things like defenders & horse lorries stolen, i dread the day anyone goes near the house..
Someone once said to me the best thing if confronted in the middle of the night by an intruder (probably armed with a knife or something) was to shoot them in the knee to knock them down, then fire another into the ceiling to say you'd given them warning, but they still came at you.
In the case of the guy above, if he's fired a shotgun & injured two of them but not seriously, he's probably used some restraint when he probably could have killed one outright.
I think for starters there should be some legal protection in this situation - people knowingly breaking the law in this way cannot sue their victim, eg for injury, and there should be clarification that if in these type of circumstances as long as you're not using unreasonable force the law is on your side.
You make very good points too Finisterre
Someone once said to me the best thing if confronted in the middle of the night by an intruder (probably armed with a knife or something) was to shoot them in the knee to knock them down, then fire another into the ceiling to say you'd given them warning, but they still came at you.
In the case of the guy above, if he's fired a shotgun & injured two of them but not seriously, he's probably used some restraint when he probably could have killed one outright.
I think for starters there should be some legal protection in this situation - people knowingly breaking the law in this way cannot sue their victim, eg for injury, and there should be clarification that if in these type of circumstances as long as you're not using unreasonable force the law is on your side.
You make very good points too Finisterre
The response time where I live is pretty slow. Here's how one old couple solved the problem. 
George Phillips, an elderly man was going up to bed, when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window. George opened the back door to go turn off the light, but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.
He phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?"
He said "No," but some people are breaking into my garden shed and stealing from me.
The police dispatcher said "All patrols are busy. You should lock your doors and an officer will be along when one is available" George said, "Okay."
He hung up the phone and counted to 30.Then he phoned the police again.
"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I just shot and killed them both, the dogs are eating them right now" and he hung up.
Within five minutes, six Police cars, a SWAT Team, a helicopter, two Fire Trucks, a Paramedic, and an Ambulance showed up at the Phillips' residence and caught the burglars red-handed.
One of the Policemen said to George, "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"
George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
George Phillips, an elderly man was going up to bed, when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window. George opened the back door to go turn off the light, but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.
He phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?"
He said "No," but some people are breaking into my garden shed and stealing from me.
The police dispatcher said "All patrols are busy. You should lock your doors and an officer will be along when one is available" George said, "Okay."
He hung up the phone and counted to 30.Then he phoned the police again.
"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I just shot and killed them both, the dogs are eating them right now" and he hung up.
Within five minutes, six Police cars, a SWAT Team, a helicopter, two Fire Trucks, a Paramedic, and an Ambulance showed up at the Phillips' residence and caught the burglars red-handed.
One of the Policemen said to George, "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"
George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"