Darwin. There, someone had to say it.

Chris_D

Lifer
 Mostly Holland. Sometimes UK.
I know this post will bring me a lot of stick but I had an interesting skype conversation with my good ladyfriend Laura and her fiance Michiel last night.

We’ve all had plans that we’ve had to cancel haven't we?
Myself, Lau and Michiel are no exception. They were planning to get hitched on April 20th this year and I was honoured that they asked me to act as both best man for him and ‘man of honour’ to her. Initially, I thought man..maid...man of honour?? Will I have to wear some sort of half-suit, half-dress combination while standing in the middle of them both?? :?
Thankfully, that’s not the case... so I’ll be going with the full dress. :lol:

Sorry, I’m digressing already.
Anyway, their wedding plans are scuppered and now they’re both technically back at work. They both work for Dutch national airline KLM. He’s a pilot and she’s a pursor. Michiel just completed his final flight for the time being as KLM have paused using their Airbus fleet (he's not qualified to fly Boeing) but Lau is still expected to fly on her rostered flights on the Boeing planes and frankly I’m really concerned for her. She flies a quick turnaround to LA this coming Tuesday.

She has a wonderfully positive, loyal and dutiful approach to her job having worked for KLM for some 20 years and I know she’s perhaps subduing her own concerns from us. A lot of cabin crew (understandably) have called in sick to avoid flying as both the union and KLM have provided them with inadequate non-encompassing guidelines or training about how to interact with both outbound and incoming passengers on these flights. There are some measures in place like blocking the aisle seats from being used to maintain a distance, they have basic ‘virus spec’ masks and gloves but the rest is being interpreted on an individual basis and imo the level of protection is not on the same level as front-line medical staff in hospitals but the conditions are similar if not more risky due to being in such a confined space for a long time. Anyone who is a virus-carrier who is pre- or a-symptomatic on that flight will have a high liklihood of infecting others.
Lau will obviously be looked to for guidance by her crew and bless her she’s been doing all the research and fact-finding she can given the circumstances. I really hope she doesn’t contract this horrible virus. She's my best friend and I don't want to lose her.

Photo 29-08-2016 16 37 10.jpg

I’m still not onto my main subject, sorry, but here goes at last, lol.
Our skype conversation got onto how and what kind of people are most susceptible to the virus once it infects and develops into disease/illness and we all more or less concluded that Darwin was indeed right about natural selection and only the strongest of the species surviving etc. Nature is wielding a heavy fist at the moment. (Religious people who believe this is God's or Allah's or whoevers 'way', you are free to leave this thread now, there's the door at the back...)
Anyone who doesn't understand or accept the Darwin theory just look at any David Attenborough wildlife documentary where herd-migration is covered and you will see a graphic display of Darwinian theory in action! The weakest, smallest or compromised wildebeest gets picked off by the crocs and tigers first!

But let’s consider the cause of why various echelons of human society are more susceptible before we start looking at the effects of a previously unknown virus and how it can ravage a particular species. Of course we know people with a compromised immune system are more susceptible - cancer patients, people who have had organ-replacements, those with hereditary diseases or otherwise. Those people sadly have an unavoidable and lower liklihood of surving Covid19-induced illness and that's tragic of course.

!Warning! Here's the contentious bit I was alluding to at the beginning....

I understand (from more than one unofficial source) that in some countries and maybe also in the UK ventilators are now being prioritised to be given to young people with emerging but serious symptoms rather than over-70's with prolonged symptoms. Maybe someone in the know can clarify that fact (?)
If that's indeed true then it's particularly galling and tragic that smokers with smoking-related diseases and eating-related obese people will be prioritised over others. This is the bit where I will probably come in for some stick but you know, so be it! Sorry if you have an eating-related obesity condition after you've been stuffing your face with BigMacs and other poison everyday for the last 10 years and your BMI is in triple figures or you are an emphysemic wreck from smoking 40 a day but you people are not worthy! You made a conscious decision to compromise your own health as well as creating a risk for frontline healthworkers and therefore, you should be justifiably de-prioritised.

I'm just speaking my mind and being honest here. I and others I know resent these people from causing others to be prevented or de-prioritised from receiving medical help from covid in a time where other more-deserving people need help.

Just to clarify - I have absolutely NOTHING against people classified as obese due to non-food related health issues - those people have just as much right to receive help as the rest of us. But people who live on doughnuts and people who smoke; you fkrs can get right to the back of the line!

It seems I'm not the only one to highlight this fact as here in NL a doctor reported that his IC unit was dominated by obese people. You'd never see this reported in the politically over-correct UK media but here, you can get away with speaking freely about such things it would seem.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/03/coronavirus-death-toll-rises-obese-corona-patients-dominate-in-intensive-care/

covid obese IC.png

I was taking a breather at the side of the road on my bike the other day while 2 large... fk it, let's call a spade a spade... 2 fat b@stards walking away from the serving window of a snackbar laden with bags of fastfood came walking passed me.
One of them coughed without covering his mouth - both hands were otherwise occupied you see. :headbang:
I as well as others around me who saw him went ballistic. His response; 'yeah yeah, whatever'.
I totally regret not getting off my bike and lamping him! I hope he gets covid and dies. I sincerely do. I have no regrets about thinking that at all I'm afraid.
14 years ago I was laid up in ICU for 3 months with Pericarditis, assumed to have been contracted virally - probably by someone openly coughing their germs into my space. I'll never get that time back and I was lucky to survive it.

Am I on my own here or does anyone agree with my derision about these entitled fkrs?
I'm not trying to whip up any form of hatred or discrimination and I'm sorry if anyone takes offence at this post - that's genuinely not my intention.
I'm just angry that 1000's of healthcare workers are being put at undue risk of infection by people who have made a conscious decision to compromise their own health and ergo their immune systems.
:headbang:
 
I get the frustration Chris, however, where is the line of freedom drawn..? You ride a bike for exercise and enjoyment, very healthy, however you also drive a Zed with no particular place to go at times just for the fun of it as we all do at times. If you had a major RTA in the Zed on a run out, would you not be entitled to medical help..? Of course you would and I’m sorry to say but so are the examples you give because we live in a free society and you cannot draw a line to what people can or cant do or else there would be no sports, recreation of any kind etc.

I agree it’s bloody galling but that’s just how a free society works.
 
jabber said:
I agree with john-e89 where do you draw the line

You could quite easily start that line with smokers and food-addicts and continue drawing it to include drug-addicts and alcoholics. Get to the back of the line!
:fuelfire:
 
Chris_D said:
Come off it John, that's hardly a fair or even equitable comparison!
:x

I didn’t say it was right or that I don’t agree with you Chris, I’m merely saying it’s how a free society works.
 
I have to agree with Chris.
Seeing the system overwhelmed I realize some treatment decisions have to be made. It's basic triage to determine the likelihood of survival when faced with overwhelming numbers of cases and limited beds or ventilators in this case.
In the US there has long been high numbers of non paying drug addicts and alcoholics usurping the medical emergency and ER services. Now I hear from the left media we are not doing enough to protect these people in the pandemic. Seriously, these are people who have chosen not to protect themselves.
Last week we watched young people party on the beaches of Florida in the face of stay at home advisories. One young woman interviewed spoke out about how they had planned this party for months and were not going to let a little flu stop their fun. Last night I read SHE has Covid-19 and I wonder how many of the other Spring Breakers brought the Covid-19 home from spring break to their families? Do those families deserve infection? No. But if they couldn't produce offspring with any more sense than this, well, maybe Darwin is right.
 
The theory behind your idea might be ok but I'm not sure about your criteria.
If you had a fit slim, 20 year old male non smoking, vegan paedophile requiring a ventilator in one bed and an over weight 93 year old David Attenborough in the same position in the next bed but you only had one ventilator available I know who I'd give it to :thumbsup:
 
How about forced euthanasia for anyone over 70.

Work until you're 50, then retire for a guaranteed 20 years (unless you die beforehand) on an average-salary government-funded pension (that is paid for by taxes during your working life, plus whatever you've decided to save to add to it yourself), then have a nice party with all your family & friends a couple of days before your euthanasia appointment and then be ground up into food like Soylent Green.

Maybe also implement some sort of 'points' system, starting with 100, and every visit to hospital/prison removes some of them (more points for bigger, longer, more serious), and when you get to zero you're time is up.

Only semi-joking :|
 
mmm-five said:
How about forced euthanasia for anyone over 70.

Work until you're 50, then retire for a guaranteed 20 years (unless you die beforehand) on an average-salary government-funded pension (that is paid for by taxes during your working life, plus whatever you've decided to save to add to it yourself), then have a nice party with all your family & friends a couple of days before your euthanasia appointment and then be ground up into food like Soylent Green.

Maybe also implement some sort of 'points' system, starting with 100, and every visit to hospital/prison removes some of them (more points for bigger, longer, more serious), and when you get to zero you're time is up.

Only semi-joking :|

Sounds lovely. :fuelfire:
 
A corker of a post Chris. :thumbsup: Dig a big hole push em all in and bomb the Bar stewards. :evil: :lol:

(No offence meant to any genuine Bar stewards :thumbsup: )

(Unless your Obese, smoke, take drugs or drink :wink: )
 
Chris_D said:
This is the bit where I will probably come in for some stick but you know, so be it! Sorry if you have an eating-related obesity condition after you've been stuffing your face with BigMacs and other poison everyday for the last 10 years and your BMI is in triple figures or you are an emphysemic wreck from smoking 40 a day but you people are not worthy! You made a conscious decision to compromise your own health as well as creating a risk for frontline healthworkers and therefore, you should be justifiably de-prioritised.

The first half of this post was interesting. I switched off after the start of the incendiary comments. #bekind
 
mmm-five said:
How about forced euthanasia for anyone over 70.

Work until you're 50, then retire for a guaranteed 20 years (unless you die beforehand) on an average-salary government-funded pension (that is paid for by taxes during your working life, plus whatever you've decided to save to add to it yourself), then have a nice party with all your family & friends a couple of days before your euthanasia appointment and then be ground up into food like Soylent Green.

Maybe also implement some sort of 'points' system, starting with 100, and every visit to hospital/prison removes some of them (more points for bigger, longer, more serious), and when you get to zero you're time is up.
I have just been asked to sit on a panel to select people who would be 'first in the queue' for any form of hospital treatment for any illness. I have just put a cross against your name. :)
 
Chris_D said:
This is the bit where I will probably come in for some stick but you know, so be it! Sorry if you have an eating-related obesity condition after you've been stuffing your face with BigMacs and other poison everyday for the last 10 years and your BMI is in triple figures or you are an emphysemic wreck from smoking 40 a day but you people are not worthy! You made a conscious decision to compromise your own health as well as creating a risk for frontline healthworkers and therefore, you should be justifiably de-prioritised.

Was National Socialism just given a bad press then Chris? :roll: Thin end of the wedge with that kind of thinking...
 
BeeEmm said:
I have just been asked to sit on a panel to select people who would be 'first in the queue' for any form of hospital treatment for any illness. I have just put a cross against your name. :)
Is a cross good or bad?

But I've got loads of points left - as I've only been in hospital twice, and never been to prison!
 
mmm-five said:
But I've got loads of points left - as I've only been in hospital twice, and never been to prison!
But you have only been working a maximum of 34 years. You have to work another 22 years to pay enough tax and national Insurance to get close to the 72 year olds.
 
z4pilot said:
Chris_D said:
This is the bit where I will probably come in for some stick but you know, so be it! Sorry if you have an eating-related obesity condition after you've been stuffing your face with BigMacs and other poison everyday for the last 10 years and your BMI is in triple figures or you are an emphysemic wreck from smoking 40 a day but you people are not worthy! You made a conscious decision to compromise your own health as well as creating a risk for frontline healthworkers and therefore, you should be justifiably de-prioritised.

Was National Socialism just given a bad press then Chris? :roll: Thin end of the wedge with that kind of thinking...

I appreciate that in a crisis difficult decisions have to be made but it would be a sad day in a civilised society if we started treating people on a set list of criteria. And where do you stop? Those suffering from dementia? Physically disabled? Cerebral palsy? Skin colour? Religion? There was a bloke with a small moustache and a propensity for sticking his arm in the air that tried this!
 
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