CV-19 day 44 / light at the end ?

[Vornwend]

Who's at fault if the government thought the country would be more obedient than it has been? All involved parties?

The government

Prior to the lockdown the government issued non compulsory advice about pubs and restaurants , albeit very late in the day and almost no advice about sporting events and schools which organisations and parents increasingly took actions on themselves before the government was forced to follow. It was an error of judgement on their behalf to think that would be good enough when almost every other developed country had imposed a hard lockdown earlier. Either that or they were so in thrall to the absent and inattentive Johnson that they didn't feel able to act.

Post the lockdown the data available shows that there were very high levels of compliance (over 80% for most of the first 10 weeks) and massive reductions in car and rail journeys. Obviously its more messy when you start to relax the rules and there is more scope to interpret the rules.

Before and after the lockdown the care home sector has been badly let down - that is also the governments fault.

I think they did a good job ramping up testing capacity, responding to the economic challenges and increasing capacity in the NHS. Everything else has been awful and trying to shift the blame to the public is simply wrong (not that they've really tried). The damage was mostly done before the lock down not after. They know that and will be dreading the results of the inquiries that will follow when the dust has settled.

 

[scootr]

You don't have dont have to make this political or racist or whatever your agenda is.. your posts are always pro brexit, pro tory, anti EU and now quite frankly boring, obnoxious, distasteful and repetetive, you got what you voted for so be happy and move on with your hatred and enjoy, perhaps act like a grown intelligent man and not a smug moron with his hands in a bucket of glee.. just a thought

And your posts aren't political or repetitive presumably. You don't know me at all so your comments are fatuous to say the least. I own a property in France and voted remain. I am no racist for your information. I voted Conservative and am quite happy with my choice thank you. Is it a left tendency to resort to insults when someone doesn't agree with your views?

Interesting question. I'm certain I know the answer given the past 4 years of our congress. But I'm not sure this is the right place for that discussion.

Interesting watching the media 10 days ago chastise people who gathered for parties or church going so far as infer they were murderers of their grandparents now condoning mass gathering and marching shoulder to shoulder in the streets to promote their left agenda. Before 2 people couldn't go to gamma's funeral now 10 thousand are encouraged. There is no doubt we will see a spike in the spread of the disease from this activity.

 

[Nictrix]

You don't have dont have to make this political or racist or whatever your agenda is.. your posts are always pro brexit, pro tory, anti EU and now quite frankly boring, obnoxious, distasteful and repetetive, you got what you voted for so be happy and move on with your hatred and enjoy, perhaps act like a grown intelligent man and not a smug moron with his hands in a bucket of glee.. just a thought

And your posts aren't political or repetitive presumably. You don't know me at all so your comments are fatuous to say the least. I own a property in France and voted remain. I am no racist for your information. I voted Conservative and am quite happy with my choice thank you. Is it a left tendency to resort to insults when someone doesn't agree with your views?

Pot. Kettle.

 

[Vornwend]

Interesting watching the media 10 days ago chastise people who gathered for parties or church going so far as infer they were murderers of their grandparents now condoning mass gathering and marching shoulder to shoulder in the streets to promote their left agenda. Before 2 people couldn't go to gamma's funeral now 10 thousand are encouraged. There is no doubt we will see a spike in the spread of the disease from this activity.

I think we can all agree the media are not covering themselves in glory, some worse than others!

I don't agree that the marches are about promoting a left wing agenda. They are about fighting racism. Bit sad that your first thought on the matter is to associate that with a left wing agenda. People of all political persuasions have voiced their anger at what provoked these marches. Similarly there have been widespread calls across the political spectrum for folk not to attend.

 

[Crazy Harry]

Before and after the lockdown the care home sector has been badly let down - that is also the governments fault.

That would be a reasonable statement if care home were part of the NHS or council owned/run .... but the vast majority are not. They are independent businesses who charge for the care they provide (an eye watering amount in most cases) and are like any other business - apart from the fact that they care for people; but that's another line of argument.

Some homes at the start of the outbreak had staff live in and close their doors to visitors and have been - according to our local news; unaffected. Others had large turnover of staff; or staff working in more than one branch/home so constantly moving between them. Home owners are responsible for staffing methods; practices; maintenance; heating and all other consumables. I believe most chose to buy independently (albeit possibly from a small number of suppliers) they had no contract with the government of NHS for items such as PPE.

In an interview I watched with the representative of the NHS trusts association he tore into the government about PPE for the NHS - with a good basis for this. In the same interview he was challenged about the transfer of old folk from the NHS into care homes; this time he ripped into the interviewer reminding them that all transfers were agreed by the home - no one was forced through the doors. If homes can contain infections such as norovirus - very easy to pass on what is it about their staff training and supervision that was an issue with covid? PPE - expense to hold large stock just in case?; staff numbers - cost?; staff training - cost?

Image that gov had said - your staffing numbers must be this; you must manage the virus like this? - what an outcry we would have had about interference in business. Now don't get me wrong my issue isn't with this government or the care home owners although both have behaviours to answer for. I have to ask what was the wisdom in the past of previous governments and councils divesting services to save money?

The media has stoked its reporting with emotional responses from relatives which I can understand and the highlighted the very real shortage of PPE in the NHS but I think a little unfairly joined this to the blame game of failings of care in a very large and fragmented sector with no evidence if the majority of infections came from hospital transfers; from care staff contacts outside the work place or poor quality care in the homes.

For the record I'm not politically active; didn't give a monkeys one way or the other about brexit; don't work in the care sector - but I am getting fed up with the BBC seeing the resting place for all accountability as the government - which wever government this would have been a car crash - and we would have all sat in the comfort of our homes and been keyboard warriors whatever.

Sorry rant over!

 

[mr.tourette]

You don't have dont have to make this political or racist or whatever your agenda is.. your posts are always pro brexit, pro tory, anti EU and now quite frankly boring, obnoxious, distasteful and repetetive, you got what you voted for so be happy and move on with your hatred and enjoy, perhaps act like a grown intelligent man and not a smug moron with his hands in a bucket of glee.. just a thought

And your posts aren't political or repetitive presumably. You don't know me at all so your comments are fatuous to say the least. I own a property in France and voted remain. I am no racist for your information. I voted Conservative and am quite happy with my choice thank you. Is it a left tendency to resort to insults when someone doesn't agree with your views?

Pot. Kettle.

Not sure who that's aimed at but frankly I'm past caring, I wouldn't post anything on the forum that I wouldn't happily say to someone's face and I mostly try not to make posts of a political nature as it generally descends into mudslinging.

I made a simple post about numbers involved in the crisis and Tinker (not for the first time) chose to twist it into something with his snarky comments of which I've seen plenty on the forum

Tinker you are right I don't know you at all and my opinion of you is fully formed from what I see you post on here, maybe you don't come across as self righteous and xenophobic in real life but your keyboard persona certainly does to me

Have a nice day

 

[Nictrix]

And your posts aren't political or repetitive presumably. You don't know me at all so your comments are fatuous to say the least. I own a property in France and voted remain. I am no racist for your information. I voted Conservative and am quite happy with my choice thank you. Is it a left tendency to resort to insults when someone doesn't agree with your views?

Pot. Kettle.

Not sure who that's aimed at but frankly I'm past caring, I wouldn't post anything on the forum that I wouldn't happily say to someone's face and I mostly try not to make posts of a political nature as it generally descends into mudslinging.

I made a simple post about numbers involved in the crisis and Tinker (not for the first time) chose to twist it into something with his snarky comments of which I've seen plenty on the forum

Tinker you are right I don't know you at all and my opinion of you is fully formed from what I see you post on here, maybe you don't come across as self righteous and xenophobic in real life but your keyboard persona certainly does to me

Have a nice day

Not you.

 

[exdos]

Before and after the lockdown the care home sector has been badly let down - that is also the governments fault.

On the BBC 1 O'Clock News on TV this afternoon, there was a feature on the Chelsea Pensioners. There are some 300 residents in that facility in Chelsea, which went into it's own imposed Lockdown sometime before the government Regs came into being. There is a Hospital on site and the complete facility is self-contained. The residents have been social distancing within. There have been 10 C-19 related deaths (plus 8 non-C-19 deaths) in the past 3 months despite that Lockdown. Is that the government's fault?

 

[scootr]

Interesting watching the media 10 days ago chastise people who gathered for parties or church going so far as infer they were murderers of their grandparents now condoning mass gathering and marching shoulder to shoulder in the streets to promote their left agenda. Before 2 people couldn't go to gamma's funeral now 10 thousand are encouraged. There is no doubt we will see a spike in the spread of the disease from this activity.

I think we can all agree the media are not covering themselves in glory, some worse than others!

I don't agree that the marches are about promoting a left wing agenda. They are about fighting racism. Bit sad that your first thought on the matter is to associate that with a left wing agenda. People of all political persuasions have voiced their anger at what provoked these marches. Similarly there have been widespread calls across the political spectrum for folk not to attend.

If there is a light at the end of this tunnel. It might be a train.

 

[Vornwend]

Before and after the lockdown the care home sector has been badly let down - that is also the governments fault.

On the BBC 1 O'Clock News on TV this afternoon, there was a feature on the Chelsea Pensioners. There are some 300 residents in that facility in Chelsea, which went into it's own imposed Lockdown sometime before the government Regs came into being. There is a Hospital on site and the complete facility is self-contained. The residents have been social distancing within. There have been 10 C-19 related deaths (plus 8 non-C-19 deaths) in the past 3 months despite that Lockdown. Is that the government's fault?

I saw that too and clearly they are an example of a very well funded care home and a highly unusual on-site hospital facility and their own staff. Great that they took their own actions as well. In contrast the majority of care homes had no such facility and were receiving residents back from hospital who were awaiting Covid 19 test results or who had even been tested positive! All care homes, private or public, are regulated by the CQC and they stopped inspections early on which meant they missed opportunities to alert others to what was happening or highlight good practice. The Chief Scientific Officer reportedly warned the government in January that care homes would be at more risk, in contrast the message from the government was that they would be safer in care homes perhaps to free up capacity in hospitals?? The entire sector struggled to get sufficient access to PPE and instead of being prioritised had to establish its own supply chains in a dog eat dog scramble for equipment. Finally I think its true to say that specific guidance was very late in being issued despite it being clear there was a growing problem from early on. The government has belatedly allocated £600m to the sector to aid its response. I remain of the opinion that the care home population has been failed by the government.

 

[exdos]

I saw that too and clearly they are an example of a very well funded care home and a highly unusual on-site hospital facility and their own staff. Great that they took their own actions as well. In contrast the majority of care homes had no such facility and were receiving residents back from hospital who were awaiting Covid 19 test results or who had even been tested positive! All care homes, private or public, are regulated by the CQC and they stopped inspections early on which meant they missed opportunities to alert others to what was happening or highlight good practice. The Chief Scientific Officer reportedly warned the government in January that care homes would be at more risk, in contrast the message from the government was that they would be safer in care homes perhaps to free up capacity in hospitals?? The entire sector struggled to get sufficient access to PPE and instead of being prioritised had to establish its own supply chains in a dog eat dog scramble for equipment. Finally I think its true to say that specific guidance was very late in being issued despite it being clear there was a growing problem from early on. The government has belatedly allocated £600m to the sector to aid its response. I remain of the opinion that the care home population has been failed by the government.

My point in mentioning the Chelsea Pensioners is that their protocol was just about as ideal as could be achieved for the emergency management of the elderly in a "Care Home" environment in the face of an impending epidemic which existed at that time. If it has been impossible for them to prevent TEN C-19 deaths, despite them being ahead of the "game" what chance had any other care home got to keep C-19 out of their premises? I don't believe that you can blame the government for 10 Chelsea pensioners dying of C-19, do you? If not whose fault is it?

With regard to PPE for care homes: once the outbreak of C-19 was declared a worldwide pandemic, demand for PPE considerably outstripped supply throughout the World and not just in the UK. The prices soared for what was available on the international market and this did create the "dog eat dog" scramble you describe which created shortages of PPE and other equipment. Even American States were competing against each other for kit creating huge "bubbles" and shortages. Our hospital front-line workers treating seriously-ill C-19 infected patients in ICUs were crying out for supplies of PPE, and in my book, they would always be at the top of my list to receive what PPE the UK had available and could obtain.

On the news, I've seen several reports of Care Homes in which all staff have remained and lived in store rooms and basements etc. within the Care Home throughout Lockdown, and through such efforts, the Care Home residents and staff have remained free of C-19, despite shortages of PPE. I would therefore suggest that the introduction of C-19 infection into Care Homes is not simply one of lack of PPE, but in fact, is one of lack of proper isolation of the residents and failure of social distancing by staff. Again this cannot be the government's fault.

 

[Crazy Harry]

On the news, I've seen several reports of Care Homes in which all staff have remained and lived in store rooms and basements etc. within the Care Home throughout Lockdown, and through such efforts, the Care Home residents and staff have remained free of C-19, despite shortages of PPE. I would therefore suggest that the introduction of C-19 infection into Care Homes is not simply one of lack of PPE, but in fact, is one of lack of proper isolation of the residents and failure of social distancing by staff. Again this cannot be the government's fault.

Yep the point I was trying to make - hospital to care home is an easy direct link to make but its not that simple

 

[Vornwend]

I don't disagree that there are many causes (singular and related) for the losses in care homes. When it comes to the availability of PPE and testing (and how it was prioritised), late advice and funding and returning patients from hospitals I still think the government is heavily implicated and could have done much better.

 

[exdos]

I wonder how much better any UK government would've done with the C-19 epidemic if any one of the other 649 MPs had been PM? I'm sure we could all criticise their efforts made with the best of intentions and with varying degrees of success in the face of the unknown.

 

[exdos]

I simply cannot understand how the government can be criticised for any mishandling of the C-19 epidemic when we see images like this today when we still have social distancing, the 2 meter rule and limit on gatherings to 6 people only.

 

[mr.tourette]

I simply cannot understand how the government can be criticised for any mishandling of the C-19 epidemic when we see images like this today when we still have social distancing, the 2 meter rule and limit on gatherings to 6 people only.

I cannot understand how you think the government cannot be criticised for mishandling, you cant stop mass protests despite the stupidity of people attending.. conversely they could have stopped 1 million people attending the Cheltenham Festival at the start of the outbreak :thumbsdown:

I'm sure all the ministers involved believe they are doing their best, but we are so far behind the rest of the world in every aspect of handling this its embarrassing, not to mention heartbreaking for the affected families

 

[exdos]

I cannot understand how you think the government cannot be criticised for mishandling, you cant stop mass protests despite the stupidity of people attending.. conversely they could have stopped 1 million people attending the Cheltenham Festival at the start of the outbreak :thumbsdown:

Of course we cannot stop people being stupid, that's the problem that the government has had throughout!
The attendance at the Cheltenham Festival is recorded as 251,684, not 1 million, and I would suggest that all those whom attended placed their own short-term and immediate pleasure ahead of their own potential long-term welfare and that of others. Most, if not all, expected that the government might force cancellation on the event, and knew the reason why such action would have occurred.

I'm sure all the ministers involved believe they are doing their best, but we are so far behind the rest of the world in every aspect of handling this its embarrassing, not to mention heartbreaking for the affected families

We pay the price of living in an ultra-liberal society, in which individuals now place themselves above the greater good of all.

I wonder how many of the protesters are still receiving furlough payments?

 

[mr.tourette]

youre right about the numbers, did mean to say a quarter million, I still believe they had plenty of time to cancel it as well as the football match at Anfield, as you said people putting pleasure before sacrifice which is why I think our Government should have acted sooner, I think that was two massive potential super spreader events they could have nipped in the bud.

 

[enuff_zed]

My missus showed me the pictures of the protest.
Here comes the second spike right there!
Her suggestion? Use drones to spray them all with that indelible ink they use to catch bank robbers etc.
Then when they turn up at hospital with the virus, send them straight to a secure compound somewhere and save the NHS for the poor sods they infected.
Bit radical, but it does make you fume!

 

[Z4M-2006]

What a colossal bunch of choppers.

These people will be the same ones clapping for the NHS and "taking the knee"......