A
Anonymous
Guest
Nosa said:
Please, don't get me started
Council Tax....Jesus H Christ..
- Thread starter Beancounter1980
- Start date
Please, don't get me started
Welcome to ENVY TAX uk!
And the Lib-Dems would only make you pay MORE for a 'nice' house, that is how 'liberal' they are... more for a 'nice' car, more for anything others might be envious of!
Sorry, political rant over there.
Vote for a party that doesn't have envy taxes and you will go a long way to doing something about it! Ask your local MP!
Dave
And the Lib-Dems would only make you pay MORE for a 'nice' house, that is how 'liberal' they are... more for a 'nice' car, more for anything others might be envious of!
Sorry, political rant over there.
Vote for a party that doesn't have envy taxes and you will go a long way to doing something about it! Ask your local MP!
Dave
A
Anonymous
Guest
Mr Whippy said:
My Father (rip) once told me all political parties will shaft you but the lib dems are the only ones who will apologise for it but still do it anyway. He also told me, never accumulate any large amounts of money in this country all you are doing is opening yourself for the government to come up with new ways of getting it off you.
My council tax increases every year and their services diminish every year. Bin men that won't empty your bin if the lid is open a little bit, I mean its not like it was 10- 15 years ago before the days of the wheelie bin When Bin men had to actually work for their money and NEVER complained, i can remember my parents always used to tip the bin men at Xmas, those days are long gone as they have now been replaced with Lazy jobs worths. During this winter they consistently failed to grit the roads, fail to fill up the grit buckets in the streets every year and are failing miserably in repairing the damage caused to the roads, fail to deal with the pond life that hang around the streets at night, fail fail fail. but want more money off me for their consistent failures. BAS**RDS.
Beancounter1980
Active member
Nosa: I agree on the gritting.
Leading to my house there is only access via a sideroad. I was stuck there everyday, ended up abandoning the Zed there too many times. No gritting at all...disgrace. Even the main roads were avoided.. :evil:
Leading to my house there is only access via a sideroad. I was stuck there everyday, ended up abandoning the Zed there too many times. No gritting at all...disgrace. Even the main roads were avoided.. :evil:
Nosa said:Mr Whippy said:
My Father (rip) once told me all political parties will shaft you but the lib dems are the only ones who will apologise for it but still do it anyway. He also told me, never accumulate any large amounts of money in this country all you are doing is opening yourself for the government to come up with new ways of getting it off you.
My council tax increases every year and their services diminish every year. Bin men that won't empty your bin if the lid is open a little bit, I mean its not like it was 10- 15 years ago before the days of the wheelie bin When Bin men had to actually work for their money and NEVER complained, i can remember my parents always used to tip the bin men at Xmas, those days are long gone as they have now been replaced with Lazy jobs worths. During this winter they consistently failed to grit the roads, fail to fill up the grit buckets in the streets every year and are failing miserably in repairing the damage caused to the roads, fail to deal with the pond life that hang around the streets at night, fail fail fail. but want more money off me for their consistent failures. BAS**RDS.
No idea really as I haven't studied it much, but you have to wonder if there is a correlation with public sector funding and quality of service.
Labour have happily increased funding for public services which is all well and good, but it only seems to have made those services spend more time thinking of new problems and more red tape they can implement to use the money up, NOT actually spending it back on US!
I look at it like this. If you were suddenly paid more to do the same job, would you a, feel motivated to double productivity, or b, think if you could get away with it, you'd just happily take the rise and do no extra.
Conservatives want to cut costs and spending, they always have, they believe in a 'lite' government by all accounts, and yes that will mean cuts, but services will be motivated to still deliver, so they work MORE efficiently.
If you suddenly had your home income cut by 25%, you'd trim away the fat and still be able to live at home, pay the bills etc. Labour are the takeaways, the Sky+ HD subscription, the heating on all year round at 21degC, etc etc... all nice to have, but it doesn't REALLY add to anyones quality of life much, it just feels nice.
It seems to be Labours way to try support everyone, a noble effort, but it just doesn't work. Communism doesn't work. People stop trying when offered an 'ok' life for sitting on their arse.
Millions employed by the state to do pointless jobs is great for employment, great for captive voters, but not so good when a country is suffering economically and needs productive workers creating wealth, not millions absorbing it to make people feel better.
One random thing that springs to my mind was (iirc) someone employed in the NHS making sure the ambulance staff were as diverse as possible, even on the shifts, so that a nice range of 'colours' would staff the ambulances at all times. Yes, nice to have when you have billions spare, not so ideal when it's borrowed over the last decade putting in this mess in the first place!
Labour are just communisits in my view. Why anyone votes for communism when it is proven to fail with greedy self-serving Orwellian 'Pigs' in power, is beyond me. Sickening really.
Dave
hawkeye00021
Member
Wow.... I hope your salaries over there match your costs of living. My utilities are roughly $200usd a month and I run the hell out of them, and if my math is correct, that is like 125 (pounds?). My taxes though, really don't change based on who is in office. It is a major running point for politicians here, but I guess you have to make a small fortune to notice. Then again, maybe if our taxes were higher, our ridiculous debt would be lower.... that or the White House would just add a new wing.
A
Anonymous
Guest
hawkeye00021 said:
Was watching a news programme yesterday, an example given was a guy who works in a garage as a mechanic gets paid after tax £120 P/W, After paying rent and council tax only, he is left with £20 to feed his family, heat his house and all other expenditures required to keep a family. If he were to loose his job he would be £40 P/W better off on benifits. That to me says it all really. Lets face it, this is one very expensive little island to live on.
Ok no more posts on this for me, Politics man it boils my Piss.
Rant over.
Mr Whippy said:Nosa said:Mr Whippy said:
My Father (rip) once told me all political parties will shaft you but the lib dems are the only ones who will apologise for it but still do it anyway. He also told me, never accumulate any large amounts of money in this country all you are doing is opening yourself for the government to come up with new ways of getting it off you.
My council tax increases every year and their services diminish every year. Bin men that won't empty your bin if the lid is open a little bit, I mean its not like it was 10- 15 years ago before the days of the wheelie bin When Bin men had to actually work for their money and NEVER complained, i can remember my parents always used to tip the bin men at Xmas, those days are long gone as they have now been replaced with Lazy jobs worths. During this winter they consistently failed to grit the roads, fail to fill up the grit buckets in the streets every year and are failing miserably in repairing the damage caused to the roads, fail to deal with the pond life that hang around the streets at night, fail fail fail. but want more money off me for their consistent failures. BAS**RDS.
No idea really as I haven't studied it much, but you have to wonder if there is a correlation with public sector funding and quality of service.
Labour have happily increased funding for public services which is all well and good, but it only seems to have made those services spend more time thinking of new problems and more red tape they can implement to use the money up, NOT actually spending it back on US!
I look at it like this. If you were suddenly paid more to do the same job, would you a, feel motivated to double productivity, or b, think if you could get away with it, you'd just happily take the rise and do no extra.
Conservatives want to cut costs and spending, they always have, they believe in a 'lite' government by all accounts, and yes that will mean cuts, but services will be motivated to still deliver, so they work MORE efficiently.
If you suddenly had your home income cut by 25%, you'd trim away the fat and still be able to live at home, pay the bills etc. Labour are the takeaways, the Sky+ HD subscription, the heating on all year round at 21degC, etc etc... all nice to have, but it doesn't REALLY add to anyones quality of life much, it just feels nice.
It seems to be Labours way to try support everyone, a noble effort, but it just doesn't work. Communism doesn't work. People stop trying when offered an 'ok' life for sitting on their arse.
Millions employed by the state to do pointless jobs is great for employment, great for captive voters, but not so good when a country is suffering economically and needs productive workers creating wealth, not millions absorbing it to make people feel better.
One random thing that springs to my mind was (iirc) someone employed in the NHS making sure the ambulance staff were as diverse as possible, even on the shifts, so that a nice range of 'colours' would staff the ambulances at all times. Yes, nice to have when you have billions spare, not so ideal when it's borrowed over the last decade putting in this mess in the first place!
Labour are just communisits in my view. Why anyone votes for communism when it is proven to fail with greedy self-serving Orwellian 'Pigs' in power, is beyond me. Sickening really.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Exactly, and this is the problem that never seems to get explained - the money being blown on services doesn't equal better services, just more expensive ones. Brown constantly talks about the Conservatives implementing 'cuts', and because people are scared of the word they can't stand up and say anything along the lines of what should be said....perhaps
- Lets slash the salary of a GP from £180,000....
- Let's drop thousands of unnecessary public service posts (such as 'printed information design co-ordinator' on £45k)
- Let's stop self interested parties like the department for schools spending £6m on an office refit
- Let's stop wasting money on areas that are currently luxuries (arts and culture, for example)
- Let's scrap the ridiculous Children's Trust Fund, which is £250 cash for, basically, BEING BORN. Total waste of money
The problem is there are now so many people employed by that system (30% of our economy) anyone employed by this regime WILL vote Labour (even if they know full well they would work harder for less money). I am not talking about nurses, teachers, or anyone doing a vital job, I am talking about the thousands of civil service posts for jobs that are either totally irrelevant or an expensive luxury at this point. We've all met them, and we all know who I mean...often they work 4 days a week and moan about how stressful it is. Labours' solution is to charge us more money to pay for it....
IMO, smaller government is better, as Douglas Hird put it - 'the benefits system should be a safety net, not a fishing net'. That goes for ALL government IMO. They should cover the basics, make sure we all have schools, police, healthcare and a benefit to fall back on if we hit hard times. We should NOT have a government trying to expand into every aspect of our lives and charge us / manage us for thousands of services they decide we need.
mikedav said:
Yep, no need for a big goverment.
A small government would be best.
I don't get what is wrong with just one tax, 30% or so flat rate on everyone, or profit for business. Leave it at that.
Imagine the savings in tax collection, reduced tax avoidance/evasion (well total removal I would imagine)
The current multitude of give with one hand then take with the other is annoying. You pay tax on what you earn, buy food and pay more tax, drive a car to get to work and tax the car, then tax the fuel you put in it, which is then taxed again with VAT. In real terms we pay huge % of tax. We then have the ability to CLAIM some back, so yet MORE pen pushers and admin determining how much you can claim back!
If they made it damn well fair in the first place, then you wouldn't NEED to claim back to survive or be comfy, because you wouldn't have been taxed too much in the first place!
I could save £50 billion tomorrow through reduced avoidance, evasion, and cutting back public service staff involved in those areas. Yes, loads of unemployed suddenly, BUT, the saved money and lower tax burden on business/people would mean MORE wealth to grow the economy. More businesses surviving, paying MORE tax (meaning less overall % to maintain the status quo longer term), more people in employment meaning less benefit payouts!
Tax is a negative feedback loop. The more you tax the less money there is for an economy to prosper. It's not a nice idea to think we have to put millions of jobsworths out of work, but ultimately their work is often pointless and a luxury at a time when WE can't afford to pay for them any more! Wouldn't we, and they, prefer to have productive jobs in society, ADDING wealth rather than absorbing it.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
£10k earners pay £3k in tax and have £7k to live on
£100k earners pay £30k in tax but have £70k to live on
...and in life there are certain costs (housing, council tax, energy, fuel, etc) which don't vary quite so directly....a flat tax makes the poorer worse off. So you need different rates for different earners, but I do agree with you that the multitude of tax credit systems, exemptions and rules - plus taxes on taxes - make it all so complicated it's untrue and require a huge, costly infrastructure to manage it.
I think you need a MASSIVE reduction in government (****ing Labour) simply to reduce the overhead, and then you don't need to charge as much tax to pay for it all.
A
Anonymous
Guest
mikedav said:
Good post
mikedav said:
Ah, but council taxes are quite linear relative to taxes on earning, same with car taxes, fuel taxes, VAT etc etc...
Ie, council tax for a £100k earner is maybe £4000 of their earnings (if they have a decently sized house), or 4%, but council tax for the £10,000 earner is maybe £750, or 7.5% of their earnings... almost DOUBLE! And for a smaller home no doubt!
So simply by not earning much, and the tax system being flawed, the poor person ends up paying MORE percentage wise for their smaller home, than the higher earner.
This is why the current stealthy tax system is bad, because it's easy to simply see earning taxation and say 'they have £x left', but taxes continue to be paid from that number (stealth taxes)
What should really be viewed is the total taxes paid over the year as a % of their gross earnings, vat, car stuff, fuel duty, etc.
The 30% rate on £10,000 sounds bad, but council tax, vat, car tax perhaps, and some fuel, and their existing £500 or so taxation under current rules, soon adds up to the £3000 under the single rate only tax rule.
Ultimately the tax take is less that way, BUT, it can be, because it's Sooooo simple to collect and administrate!
You would be surprised how fair it actually is at a flat rate, once you start adding up how much tax you really pay, not just the amount off earnings... and it's fair in many other ways that pure numerical values. Ie, old people who managed to get a nice house by working hard in their lives and saving for retirement don't now suffer for it by having a huge council tax bill in retirement. Their earnings (pension/s) are low, so they are taxed low!
On the flip side, work harder, and you are not persecuted by paying MORE tax %... how much of an incentive is that to work more/harder/better
Dave
30% flat tax wouldn't be enough to cancel out all the other taxes....hell they want 50% tax rate on 'high' earners on TOP of all the 'stealth' taxes we have now! that's how many billions are being burned here. To do what you suggest, with current spending, it would probably need to be a flat rate of 60% or more for everyone....fuel tax, VAT, stamp duty, etc etc all raises billions you would have to replace. It's also not that simple to collect unless everyone in the UK is
A) 100% legit
B) on PAYE (no contracts, self employed, etc)
....and of course they aren't.
A) 100% legit
B) on PAYE (no contracts, self employed, etc)
....and of course they aren't.
I think a non-official (ie, UK gov) study had been done on this and the ideal rate was around 30%... hence me using it in my example 
Interesting info on wikipedia too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax
I think the problem is you don't realise the savings that not only the government would make in collecting tax, but the efficiency of industry and business in now not paying many millions or billions determining effective tax avoidance, or evasion techniques, or simply administrating the complex matter of tax full stop.
As per 100% legit, that is a problem now anyway.
And the PAYE part, again, that is a problem now too.
I'm not pretending it would be super simple, but it does have MANY benefits, as well as some down sides, just like the current system. BUT, in a country where a bloated civil service/pulbic sector is a problem, and biased taxation/subsidies are crippling growth, it would be good to just level the field and let nature take it's course!
Where efficiency lays, it will be routed out, where markets are viable, they will be expanded in to... of course, that needs to be controlled, but that is where policy is important
At least it'd be obvious when we got tax rises anyway, and would make our cars cheaper to own/run... encouraging more tourism etc etc
Dave
Interesting info on wikipedia too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax
I think the problem is you don't realise the savings that not only the government would make in collecting tax, but the efficiency of industry and business in now not paying many millions or billions determining effective tax avoidance, or evasion techniques, or simply administrating the complex matter of tax full stop.
As per 100% legit, that is a problem now anyway.
And the PAYE part, again, that is a problem now too.
I'm not pretending it would be super simple, but it does have MANY benefits, as well as some down sides, just like the current system. BUT, in a country where a bloated civil service/pulbic sector is a problem, and biased taxation/subsidies are crippling growth, it would be good to just level the field and let nature take it's course!
Where efficiency lays, it will be routed out, where markets are viable, they will be expanded in to... of course, that needs to be controlled, but that is where policy is important
At least it'd be obvious when we got tax rises anyway, and would make our cars cheaper to own/run... encouraging more tourism etc etc
Dave
A
Anonymous
Guest
There's only one way to sort this out.......
:slappy: :slappy: :slappy:
"FIGHT"
:slappy: :slappy: :slappy:
"FIGHT"