Cornering

[mikedelta]

If you want to learn how fast you can take a corner you must understand that the consequences of getting it wrong on the road can be severe. I used the system below which worked for me, you have to take responsibility for how you decide to go about it so for discussion purposes only:

The way to learn cornering speeds needs a great deal of discipline if you are going to avoid an accident.
*Get the line through the corner correct, always start with a late turn in and a late apex.
Pick an approach speed and stick to it.
Pick a braking point and stick to it.
Brake, at a constant pressure, to the turn in point.
At that point come off the brakes, turn in smoothly and apply some throttle.
Aim for your clipping point whilst gently increasing throttle.
As you leave the corner apply more throttle.
That should all be done at a gentle pace not flat out.
Repeat until the corner entry and exit speeds are the same from attempt to attempt.
Now approach a little quicker, brake a little harder, apply a little more throttle through the corner.
Repeat as before.
Listen to the car, it will talk to you. Tyre squeal means you are near a limit at one end or the other. Be sensitive for any slippage from any wheel etc. If you are very close to the edge of the track on exit you will be close to the limit. Under no circumstances do you want to go over it if you have limited experience of car control.
Keep repeating at slightly higher speeds until you and the car feel comfortable then keep to what you have set for that type of corner.
When the weather is different adjust accordingly, the wet is a different universe.
A session or two on a skid pan is probably a good idea.
All this is best practised on a track day at a race circuit where you will meet the same corners again and again in a short space of time, it is not recommended to practice on a public road.

*Notes:
The correct line is absolutely critical, if that is wrong, everything is wrong.
Lines, braking points, throttle application etc are terms you need to be familiar with, read about what they mean and get further detail on the above from the relevant parts of any of the following books from your local library or secondhand book source:
High Speed Driving - Walter Honegger
Drive to Win - Carroll Smith
Going Faster - The Skip Barber Racing School
Competition Driving - Alain Prost
Principles of Race Driving - Ayrton Senna
Racing Driver's Manual - Frank Gardner

 

[exdos]

Christrong, Assuming you're on a track experimenting with cornering speeds, if you feel that you've got it wrong and misjudged the entry speed and going faster than you are comfortable with very close to your turning point, you might find it better to just lift-off the throttle (rather than brake) relatively slowly so that front end of the car doesn't suddenly dive, thus overloading the front tyres relative to the rears. Then, be brave, and make your turn-in about a yard earlier than you should, so that you might get some lift-off oversteer to make the car change direction. Once the car has started to change direction, focus on steering as accurately as you can around the bend, thus keeping the front wheels pointing where you want to go. Any oversteer that you initially get will make the rear tyres rapidly scrub-off speed and since there is no throttle applied (I'm talking RWD here) all the grip available to the tyres will go to cornering and none will go for increasing traction. As soon as you feel that the car is stable you can progressively reapply the throttle to maintain speed or to accelerate. You'll be amazed how much grip the better makes of tyres can give just coasting around corners without power applied as I've described. You can practice this by cornering at speeds you know are safe for a specific corner.

To better understand the concept look up some articles on the Circle of Friction.

 

[Smartbear]

Most people would be in big trouble after provoking lift off oversteer (don’t ask me how i know this)
Rob

 

[exdos]

Most people would be in big trouble after provoking lift off oversteer (don’t ask me how i know this)
Rob

Absolutely. That's why I wrote: "lift-off the throttle (rather than brake) relatively slowly so that front end of the car doesn't suddenly dive, thus overloading the front tyres relative to the rears."

What you are trying to do is keep the loading on the front and rear tyres even so that the car remains "balanced", so that when you turn-in, all 4 tyres resist the centrifugal force pushing the car straight on and find enough grip for the car to change direction. If you brake, and increase the load at the front of the car, when you turn the steering, the outer front wheel will become overloaded and will not have sufficient grip to turn, and with a lighter rear end, the car will be unbalanced and likely to want to continue in the direction of travel causing a spin.

You can't buy experience, so if you're interested in driving and exploring the limits, I can highly recommend a few trips to an outdoor arrive & drive go-kart track, where you can explore the "physics" and test and improve your skills in relative safety for little money and a lot of fun. When you think you're good in dry conditions, make sure you go again in wet conditions and see how different those conditions change everything.

 

[Lazza]

There's a simple method, Christrong, you can try that a Porsche specialist I know uses as part of the way to gauge the efficiency of a car's suspension before he works on it.

First, you need an empty roundabout. Not too big, not too small - you'll find the right size when you try this. Then, you need a friend to read the speedometer, so you can focus on the job. Having his/her weight over the front end helps, too.

The idea is not to tear-arse onto the roundabout, all wheels screaming, but to drive whole circuits (of as near the same diameter as you can manage) at a fixed speed, increasing by 1mph (or as near as you can manage) per circuit until you begin to lose adhesion.

Try it. You may be surprised at the outcomes.

The problem with that is, if you aren't used to how a RWD car loses grip, you are likely to do a half-spin then head straight into the roundabout rather that just sliding and scrubbing the speed off.

 

[Busterboo]

You're right, of course, but how a RWD car loses grip is of the things Christrong wants to learn.

(I recommended +1mph per circuit increments so he wouldn't finish up actually on the roundabout. :wink: )

 

[zxy]

You can never get enough practice on a public road. It requires too much repetition, and it is very risky. Find or make a skid pad perhaps in a parking lot. (with no light posts). Go around in circles until you skid. Thats it. Skid pads are used in Performance driving schools, autocross schools and track schools. One should also experience a race course or autocross track with a competent driver. Some clubs encourage this. You will be extremely impressed. All the other dynamics propounded in all the books require track time. Track time requires time and money and tires and other gear, not to mention an instructor. (And maybe a messed up luxury car) It is also the most fun you can have sitting down. Some people can do this well and will just pass everyone. Others not so much. But everyone has to first be exposed to the limits without the harsh results.

 

[MrPT]

Crack a door open and see if you can get a knee down.

That’s how you know you’re doing it right. Especially on left hand bends.

 

[Jembo]

+30 years ago, I’d said hop in & buckle up, let’s see what she’ll do.

Today with so many dash cams & some of my friends not being as lucky with the close shaves I had, I’d say the sensible way is go enjoy a track day where you can pay someone for an hours 1:1 tuition, then have a practice afterwards.

Recommend you always drive your car on the basis you know what it’s going to do for the situation, ragging it & being unsure what’s going to happen tends to lead to a broken ego & higher ins premiums

As a good read suggestion, try Ben Collins ‘How to Drive’ book - gives good insight on being a faster driver, rather than someone who just drives fast.

 

[AndyBeech]

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/

Not cheap but if you want to really learn instead of guessing at it...

I'm going to be doing a course with them early next year so if you want to go halves on a full day it works out cheaper than 1:1 instruction, plus you get a bit of a break from constant instruction which will be useful!

 

[M1k3yC]

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/

Not cheap but if you want to really learn instead of guessing at it...

I'm going to be doing a course with them early next year so if you want to go halves on a full day it works out cheaper than 1:1 instruction, plus you get a bit of a break from constant instruction which will be useful!

Could you post this as an event in the events section nearer the time, please (or however far in advance you have to book)? I'd be interested in this and I can't be the only one. It would depend on the course you're thinking of and when, but I'd like to be kept in the loop. Thanks!

I've been trying to resist weighing in on the topic but I'm here now... I drive an E86 (Si Sport, not an M) and an M135i. I've had a bunch of different vehicles, FWD and RWD. I'd also like to point out that I take others' and my safety seriously. However, on a few occasions I have dropped the ball (in 20 years+ of driving).

In my first car (a 1.0 Vauxhall Corsa) I got part way round a bend on a country lane that suddenly became much tighter, panicked and hit the brakes, locked up and went straight to hedge without passing Go or collecting £200. Luckily, the car was only mildly damaged, my ego bruised, and myself and passenger unharmed. A bloke passing in a small 4x4 dragged us out. I believe the hedge went on to make a full recovery. Eventually. I ran out of talent way before the car ran out of capability.

I had a scare in one of my previous BMWs when I booted it on a roundabout and the rear tried to overtake the front. This was simply an idiot move on my part, it was wet, and I was having a bad day. As a result I had to continue around the roundabout instead of leaving as planned, two wheels on the outside verge as it understeered (but luckily avoiding the metal signage). Next day I took a trip to Kwik Fit, explained that I'd been a bellend, and politely asked for a check up and alignment.

Once I came round a bend in my Cooper S and hit patches of ice one wheel at a time. The next challenge was going across a narrow, single-lane bridge where, luckily, I had priority. I nursed it, more by luck than judgement, between the bridge walls, thanked the oncoming traffic and all was well. In all fairness, the ice was a surprise and due to an unexpectedly shaded part of the road.

Another time I decided to be a hero in a BMW with DTC on going round a small, deserted roundabout. The intention was just to push the back end out a bit, not drift it or anything. However, I had to go around the roundabout once more than intended and just looked like an idiot that time.

My point is that the way this was posted originally just screamed to me: bad idea. My experience over the years has been that when traction goes on public roads, expected or unexpected, all bets are off. Plus, other people are at risk. I did a drift experience once (professionally organised) and that was amazing and taught me a lot. Do that, or something similar, you'll love it and learn something

 

[mcbutler]

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/

Not cheap but if you want to really learn instead of guessing at it...

I'm going to be doing a course with them early next year so if you want to go halves on a full day it works out cheaper than 1:1 instruction, plus you get a bit of a break from constant instruction which will be useful!

Could you post this as an event in the events section nearer the time, please (or however far in advance you have to book)? I'd be interested in this and I can't be the only one. It would depend on the course you're thinking of and when, but I'd like to be kept in the loop. Thanks!

I've been trying to resist weighing in on the topic but I'm here now... I drive an E86 (Si Sport, not an M) and an M135i. I've had a bunch of different vehicles, FWD and RWD. I'd also like to point out that I take others' and my safety seriously. However, on a few occasions I have dropped the ball (in 20 years+ of driving).

In my first car (a 1.0 Vauxhall Corsa) I got part way round a bend on a country lane that suddenly became much tighter, panicked and hit the brakes, locked up and went straight to hedge without passing Go or collecting £200. Luckily, the car was only mildly damaged, my ego bruised, and myself and passenger unharmed. A bloke passing in a small 4x4 dragged us out. I believe the hedge went on to make a full recovery. Eventually. I ran out of talent way before the car ran out of capability.

I had a scare in one of my previous BMWs when I booted it on a roundabout and the rear tried to overtake the front. This was simply an idiot move on my part, it was wet, and I was having a bad day. As a result I had to continue around the roundabout instead of leaving as planned, two wheels on the outside verge as it understeered (but luckily avoiding the metal signage). Next day I took a trip to Kwik Fit, explained that I'd been a bellend, and politely asked for a check up and alignment.

Once I came round a bend in my Cooper S and hit patches of ice one wheel at a time. The next challenge was going across a narrow, single-lane bridge where, luckily, I had priority. I nursed it, more by luck than judgement, between the bridge walls, thanked the oncoming traffic and all was well. In all fairness, the ice was a surprise and due to an unexpectedly shaded part of the road.

Another time I decided to be a hero in a BMW with DTC on going round a small, deserted roundabout. The intention was just to push the back end out a bit, not drift it or anything. However, I had to go around the roundabout once more than intended and just looked like an idiot that time.

My point is that the way this was posted originally just screamed to me: bad idea. My experience over the years has been that when traction goes on public roads, expected or unexpected, all bets are off. Plus, other people are at risk. I did a drift experience once (professionally organised) and that was amazing and taught me a lot. Do that, or something similar, you'll love it and learn something

At last, sanity raises its head in this thread

 

[AndyBeech]

https://catdrivertraining.co.uk/

Not cheap but if you want to really learn instead of guessing at it...

I'm going to be doing a course with them early next year so if you want to go halves on a full day it works out cheaper than 1:1 instruction, plus you get a bit of a break from constant instruction which will be useful!

Could you post this as an event in the events section nearer the time, please (or however far in advance you have to book)? I'd be interested in this and I can't be the only one. It would depend on the course you're thinking of and when, but I'd like to be kept in the loop. Thanks!

Will do It'll probably be April / May next year and the 'performance driver' course they offer. Had a friend that did it and learnt an absolute ton for both road and track driving. Some skills are interchangeable between the two, others not so much but it's an excellent grounding and the tuition is some of the best around so I'm told. He did 1:1 training for the whole day and as you would expect was pretty exhausting and a lot to remember, hence why I feel a little break if you do it with someone else gives you a chance to have a breather between coaching.

To give you an idea of the benefits, we did a track day last year at Silverstone. It took me most the day to start getting anywhere near the cars limits and stringing a lap together that was half consistent and even then that's only my assessment, an instructor would probably have said otherwise! He on the other hand was flying around before even half the day was done, consistently lapping at a good pace and putting me to shame to be honest (he hadn't driven Silverstone before). I just didn't have the confidence in my abilities (or lack of) to push the car and know how to feel what it was doing at any given point, which is where I want to improve and where my friend learnt a whole lot at CAT.


To the OP, there's no substitute for good tuition. You can drive around roundabouts in circles or whatever but what are you honestly learning from it? You've spent a few pennies on a decent car so learn how to drive it (and any other car for that matter) properly and spend a few quid with someone who knows what they're doing, in safety, without fear of wiping yourself or someone else out