Convince me to upgrade from 3.0i to the M!

[-Tom-]

Well I'm happy to agree that steering feel is totally subjective and I personally prefer the electric feel for a road car.

What's the difference between a hydraulic and the mighty ///M hydraulic?

All I feel in the Z4M is that the extra power is great if you find sitting on a dual carriageway watching the speedo go around in your 2 seater sports car but a Z4 struggles to use the 230 bhp effectively due to inherent design characteristics such as the lazy suspension, sitting over the rear wheels and short wheelbase. To me a 2 seater sports car is for throwing around some corners quickly, having more power would mean I'd just be doing the initial understeer with snap oversteer even quicker.

I'm more aligned with Porsche way of thinking to build a great package than BMW who put outstanding engines in average cars to occasionally create poorly balanced/overpowered cars (E60 M5 is the first to mind). I'm sure Porsche could easily create a very high maintenance/poor economy 400hp car to go in a Boxster but they seem to build car to serve a purpose and then put an engine to serve that purpose.

Regarding the S54 I can understands why many owners get sentimental about it but the game has moved on. S65 was a step up and now the S55 is another big step up. I'm sure people will moan it has turbos but an S54 is now 15+ years old, I personally felt the throttle response of the S55 was better mostly because when you do press the throttle you get so much bloody thrust compared to an S54/S65. Again my thinking is that I buy a performance BMW to go fast, I find it difficult to use sentimental descriptions of a BMW never mind how much of a legendary status it may have amongst the followers. (If the S54 is a legend, the V10 TT in our RS6 is a god.)

The CSL - I remember when my mum went to buy a new M3 convertible in 2004 there were a few CSL's heavily discounted they just couldn't get rid of. The journos gave it bad press/overpriced/pointless etc and now 10 years later it's this folk legend with some magical qualities which can't quite be explained objectively but subjectively it's unbeatable, a classic, never surpassed.

My point in the original post regarding the Porsche was that you'd be silly to buy an Z4M without even driving a Boxster S (and whatever else you may feel is competition). For me objectively a Boxster is a better car but if subjectively the Z4M is this dream you've had and it gives you warm fuzzy feelings inside and you deem that to be better than objective qualities of the Boxster then Z4M it is for you.

Haha ok ;-) All personal opinion, but not so sure why you feel the need to lay into the s54 and Z4M with sarcasm when it is a lot of people's P+J on here.

What do you mean by hydraulic steering vs "mighty M hydraulic steering" ? It is either a z4 with electric power steering, or it is an M with hydraulic.

 

[StevenH72]

Well I'm happy to agree that steering feel is totally subjective and I personally prefer the electric feel for a road car.

What's the difference between a hydraulic and the mighty ///M hydraulic?

All I feel in the Z4M is that the extra power is great if you find sitting on a dual carriageway watching the speedo go around in your 2 seater sports car but a Z4 struggles to use the 230 bhp effectively due to inherent design characteristics such as the lazy suspension, sitting over the rear wheels and short wheelbase. To me a 2 seater sports car is for throwing around some corners quickly, having more power would mean I'd just be doing the initial understeer with snap oversteer even quicker.

I'm more aligned with Porsche way of thinking to build a great package than BMW who put outstanding engines in average cars to occasionally create poorly balanced/overpowered cars (E60 M5 is the first to mind). I'm sure Porsche could easily create a very high maintenance/poor economy 400hp car to go in a Boxster but they seem to build car to serve a purpose and then put an engine to serve that purpose.

Regarding the S54 I can understands why many owners get sentimental about it but the game has moved on. S65 was a step up and now the S55 is another big step up. I'm sure people will moan it has turbos but an S54 is now 15+ years old, I personally felt the throttle response of the S55 was better mostly because when you do press the throttle you get so much bloody thrust compared to an S54/S65. Again my thinking is that I buy a performance BMW to go fast, I find it difficult to use sentimental descriptions of a BMW never mind how much of a legendary status it may have amongst the followers. (If the S54 is a legend, the V10 TT in our RS6 is a god.)

The CSL - I remember when my mum went to buy a new M3 convertible in 2004 there were a few CSL's heavily discounted they just couldn't get rid of. The journos gave it bad press/overpriced/pointless etc and now 10 years later it's this folk legend with some magical qualities which can't quite be explained objectively but subjectively it's unbeatable, a classic, never surpassed.

My point in the original post regarding the Porsche was that you'd be silly to buy an Z4M without even driving a Boxster S (and whatever else you may feel is competition). For me objectively a Boxster is a better car but if subjectively the Z4M is this dream you've had and it gives you warm fuzzy feelings inside and you deem that to be better than objective qualities of the Boxster then Z4M it is for you.

Before I start, have you ever driven a Z4M? There is a lot more to it than dual carriageway blasts. Also as for struggling to use 230bhp effectively, I've had no issues with the Z4M. The S54 isn't exactly a torque monster so getting the power down is never really an issue, coupled with the LSD the car has great traction under acceleration.

I took a Cayman S for a test drive before buying my ///M, the power delivery was very dull, the brakes were a little soft for my liking and there was no excitement with it. If I needed a quick car, which is comfortable for a daily drive I'd pick the Cayman S, however, for a weekend toy, which provided thrills and a sense of occasion the ///M, for me, really had no competition.

The suspension on the ///M is reallly the only thing that frustrated me, but even a relatively inexpensive fix such as Eibach springs made it much more compliant. I'll be looking at coilovers at some stage which should help the ride hugely.

 

[Beedub]

Well I'm happy to agree that steering feel is totally subjective and I personally prefer the electric feel for a road car.

What's the difference between a hydraulic and the mighty ///M hydraulic?

All I feel in the Z4M is that the extra power is great if you find sitting on a dual carriageway watching the speedo go around in your 2 seater sports car but a Z4 struggles to use the 230 bhp effectively due to inherent design characteristics such as the lazy suspension, sitting over the rear wheels and short wheelbase. To me a 2 seater sports car is for throwing around some corners quickly, having more power would mean I'd just be doing the initial understeer with snap oversteer even quicker.

I'm more aligned with Porsche way of thinking to build a great package than BMW who put outstanding engines in average cars to occasionally create poorly balanced/overpowered cars (E60 M5 is the first to mind). I'm sure Porsche could easily create a very high maintenance/poor economy 400hp car to go in a Boxster but they seem to build car to serve a purpose and then put an engine to serve that purpose.

Regarding the S54 I can understands why many owners get sentimental about it but the game has moved on. S65 was a step up and now the S55 is another big step up. I'm sure people will moan it has turbos but an S54 is now 15+ years old, I personally felt the throttle response of the S55 was better mostly because when you do press the throttle you get so much bloody thrust compared to an S54/S65. Again my thinking is that I buy a performance BMW to go fast, I find it difficult to use sentimental descriptions of a BMW never mind how much of a legendary status it may have amongst the followers. (If the S54 is a legend, the V10 TT in our RS6 is a god.)

The CSL - I remember when my mum went to buy a new M3 convertible in 2004 there were a few CSL's heavily discounted they just couldn't get rid of. The journos gave it bad press/overpriced/pointless etc and now 10 years later it's this folk legend with some magical qualities which can't quite be explained objectively but subjectively it's unbeatable, a classic, never surpassed.

My point in the original post regarding the Porsche was that you'd be silly to buy an Z4M without even driving a Boxster S (and whatever else you may feel is competition). For me objectively a Boxster is a better car but if subjectively the Z4M is this dream you've had and it gives you warm fuzzy feelings inside and you deem that to be better than objective qualities of the Boxster then Z4M it is for you.

So many incorrect/off key points here I just need to stop feeding the troll.

The fact you prefur your electric steering says it all, the difference is night and day to a proper hydraulic setup.

On a side note, Can u post some pics of your car plz , I'd love to it, sounds well modded.

 

[Beedub]

Well I'm happy to agree that steering feel is totally subjective and I personally prefer the electric feel for a road car.

What's the difference between a hydraulic and the mighty ///M hydraulic?

All I feel in the Z4M is that the extra power is great if you find sitting on a dual carriageway watching the speedo go around in your 2 seater sports car but a Z4 struggles to use the 230 bhp effectively due to inherent design characteristics such as the lazy suspension, sitting over the rear wheels and short wheelbase. To me a 2 seater sports car is for throwing around some corners quickly, having more power would mean I'd just be doing the initial understeer with snap oversteer even quicker.

I'm more aligned with Porsche way of thinking to build a great package than BMW who put outstanding engines in average cars to occasionally create poorly balanced/overpowered cars (E60 M5 is the first to mind). I'm sure Porsche could easily create a very high maintenance/poor economy 400hp car to go in a Boxster but they seem to build car to serve a purpose and then put an engine to serve that purpose.

Regarding the S54 I can understands why many owners get sentimental about it but the game has moved on. S65 was a step up and now the S55 is another big step up. I'm sure people will moan it has turbos but an S54 is now 15+ years old, I personally felt the throttle response of the S55 was better mostly because when you do press the throttle you get so much bloody thrust compared to an S54/S65. Again my thinking is that I buy a performance BMW to go fast, I find it difficult to use sentimental descriptions of a BMW never mind how much of a legendary status it may have amongst the followers. (If the S54 is a legend, the V10 TT in our RS6 is a god.)

The CSL - I remember when my mum went to buy a new M3 convertible in 2004 there were a few CSL's heavily discounted they just couldn't get rid of. The journos gave it bad press/overpriced/pointless etc and now 10 years later it's this folk legend with some magical qualities which can't quite be explained objectively but subjectively it's unbeatable, a classic, never surpassed.

My point in the original post regarding the Porsche was that you'd be silly to buy an Z4M without even driving a Boxster S (and whatever else you may feel is competition). For me objectively a Boxster is a better car but if subjectively the Z4M is this dream you've had and it gives you warm fuzzy feelings inside and you deem that to be better than objective qualities of the Boxster then Z4M it is for you.

Haha ok ;-) All personal opinion, but not so sure why you feel the need to lay into the s54 and Z4M with sarcasm when it is a lot of people's P+J on here.

What do you mean by hydraulic steering vs "mighty M hydraulic steering" ? It is either a z4 with electric power steering, or it is an M with hydraulic.

Tom. Please don't feed this dude. He's talking total crap.

 

[Beedub]

The s54 is absolutely one the best engines produced.... forget that it's outdated it didn't win 10 years worth of engine awards for nothing, it is without doubt one of the best ///M engine produced. It has characters that today's motors just don't have unless ur in the mega money territory...

Just like those old gt3 engines , it will always be something very special and with today's emmissions laws it will remain that way. My fave part of the z4m.

 

[Adam D]

I drove the 3.4 Boxster S with fancy mag ride suspension and still bought the Z4 M; I liked the edgy handling and the engine felt much more special and grunty. Engine response and better low down torque is what sets the S54 apart from the M54 3.0 Z4 I had previously which was very smooth but lacked excitement.

Shame I didn't have the extra cash at the time for the 996 GT3 mk1 I was offered at mates rates.... Would have been a nice investment

 

[Babw]

Apologies if anyone feels I've tried to lessen their pride and joy and that wasn't my intention.

Beedub, you clearly have a great emotional attachment to your car. What's total crap is that you feel the fact I don't reciprocate that my opinion is rubbish.

Why am I not surprised you brought the Mezger into this, another engine that attracts all the die hard followers who shout he 9A1 doesn't deserve to be in a GT3 etc for all intents and purposes the 9A1 is a better engine than the Mezger, the 991 drivetrain is better than the 997. If you have an emotional/sentimental liking to a manual box that's great but don't spout s**t like it's the rule. You think the S54 has character, that's great but I think by modern offerings the S54 is gutless. I have an S54 car and I'm entitled to my opinion, why do you feel your opinion has more gravitas than mine?

We have a subscription to EVO magazine and it's fantastic reading material. They create this emotional drama which stirs emotions in the readers, they dictate that manual gearboxes, NA engines and M cars are the bread and butter of performance enthusiasts. Which in turn forces the hand of some poor bloke who lives in East London to buy an M car due to the fantastic write up about one weekend in Wales written by Richard Meaden. Then words like legend, character, special, dying breed, evocative, dynamism gets thrown around on forums and this bloke in London has 350 + hp car which in his head mimics all the qualities that he read in the review on his commute to Essex. It's like magic!

Can you explain why when the journos reviewed the CSL when it was new, it had a less than lukewarm reception but now it's a hero?

Can you also explain what this magical character the S54 has the S55 or S65 doesn't have? Try to use descriptive words and not ambiguous drivel like special.

What about this review from C. Harris about the Z4M?

http://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/tell-me-im-wrong-bmw-z4-m-coupe/26310

He's obviously driven a few cars but didn't he have his "character" hat on?

 

[Babw]

Oh and Beedub where did the S54 win 10 years of IEOTY awards?

From what I can see it won 6 and so did the N54. Surely not considering the N54 has turbos and none of the character?

 

[Z4M-2006]

Chris Harris.,,ha ha... :kissass:

 

[-Tom-]

Chris Harris.,,ha ha... :kissass:

As much as a like the guy, he does occasionally talk crap. A recent one being a comparison between a complete entry level 370z vs a top spec Toyota gt86, and ripped the Nissan for not going round the twisties as well, (hmmm, who ever would think a barge of a Nissan was designed for county lanes, it is a bargain GT car/ baby muscle car) and slates the cloth interior etc etc ;-)

Bab., you're also talking with passionate drivel ;-) That's what owning a car as a hobby is about. No need to get all personal, my car has a name. She will get upset if she hears you taking the piss out of her manual box.

 

[Beedub]

Currently on my s5 so I can't respond but I love a bit of banter.... I'll hit u back up tomorow. For now tho. ... i have to say u seem like a inside hater.

And again.... how about some pics of you car ?? Would be nice to see.

How about some pics of your car as well???

 

[Babw]

Currently on my s5 so I can't respond but I love a bit of banter.... I'll hit u back up tomorow. For now tho. ... i have to say u seem like a inside hater.

And again.... how about some pics of you car ?? Would be nice to see.

How about some pics of your car as well???

Just for you I'll take some pics of the Z4 with the magical S54 inside car. I too love a bit on banter but I do despise the whole "he's a troll because he's saying something I disagree with."

It maybe a bit difficult to get this point across in a one brand/model forum but what one person may value as special maybe totally worthless to someone else. I just asked my missus whether she thinks the M3 or Z4 is special, she instantly said the Z4 because it's cooler. Now she's no car nut but people speak about this "special" characteristics as instantly noticeable, surely if it's so obvious even a non car nut should notice the special factor? She's driven both cars 1000's of times yet to her the Z4 is special. My old man would never agree to a BMW or any car without an engine in the middle as being special.

Going back to my first post in this topic, I just find it a little dense to make the statement that an Z4M is more special than a Boxster S or an S54 more special than a Boxster engine. This is completely subjective and doesn't matter how much you believe it, it is disputable.


Edit -

Here are some picture from the summer. The Z4 is now running genuine Volk TE37 in bronze picked up in Japan, very marmite choice. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

If anyone is interested the M3 is for sale. Forget everything I said before, its one a kind, dying breed of evocative cars with the unmistakable character from the visceral S54 and that special factor you can only truly appreciate once you've bought into the M3 brand. 8)

It really is for sale though and has done 1200 mile in the last 3 years, heated garage stored and full BMWSH. As explained earlier I'm selling it because to me personally it's not a big enough jump from the Z4, I should be getting a Metallic Black GTR delivery in April so need the garage space.














Hopefully I've passed the custard test, now Beedub can we get a picture of you wearing your "I'm special S54 inside" t-shirt?

 

[Beedub]

Currently on my s5 so I can't respond but I love a bit of banter.... I'll hit u back up tomorow. For now tho. ... i have to say u seem like a inside hater.

And again.... how about some pics of you car ?? Would be nice to see.

How about some pics of your car as well???

Just for you I'll take some pics of the Z4 with the magical S54 inside car. I too love a bit on banter but I do despise the whole "he's a troll because he's saying something I disagree with."

It maybe a bit difficult to get this point across in a one brand/model forum but what one person may value as special maybe totally worthless to someone else. I just asked my missus whether she thinks the M3 or Z4 is special, she instantly said the Z4 because it's cooler. Now she's no car nut but people speak about this "special" characteristics as instantly noticeable, surely if it's so obvious even a non car nut should notice the special factor? She's driven both cars 1000's of times yet to her the Z4 is special. My old man would never agree to a BMW or any car without an engine in the middle as being special.

Going back to my first post in this topic, I just find it a little dense to make the statement that an Z4M is more special than a Boxster S or an S54 more special than a Boxster engine. This is completely subjective and doesn't matter how much you believe it, it is disputable.


Edit -

Here are some picture from the summer. The Z4 is now running genuine Volk TE37 in bronze picked up in Japan, very marmite choice. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

If anyone is interested the M3 is for sale. Forget everything I said before, its one a kind, dying breed of evocative cars with the unmistakable character from the visceral S54 and that special factor you can only truly appreciate once you've bought into the M3 brand. 8)

It really is for sale though and has done 1200 mile in the last 3 years, heated garage stored and full BMWSH. As explained earlier I'm selling it because to me personally it's not a big enough jump from the Z4, I should be getting a Metallic Black GTR delivery in April so need the garage space.














Hopefully I've passed the custard test, now Beedub can we get a picture of you wearing your "I'm special S54 inside" t-shirt?

ok babW...

i can post alittle better now I'm away from my phone, first things first, you are definitely bordering the troll territory with your general attitude tbh however, i sense the keyboard ninja maybe strong with this one :evil: , yes i disagree with numerous parts of your argument , i absolutely don't believe any of the boxster/cayman range have an engine that matches the s54, I'm sure the new Gt4 will however. The z4m is pretty flawed from the factory and needs some key mods to be the car it really should have been from day one. The steering is one of the things however that feels right, nice weight, nice feel and just a joy in an age of numb electric assisted systems. The z4m is by no means perfect, but (apart from the spyder/cayman R) i feel it was genuinely the better car than the boxster/cayman of the same era, i am just really proud owner but I'm well aware of the flaws too. Heres the deal breaker for me, the fact you like your electric steering more than a hydraulic setup says alot about your opinion to me, that isn't a dig either, your just wrong on this one, but again its all opinion. You did however give me alittle spike that i haven't had on this forum for a while, which i have enjoyed....

Car looks nice btw The aero bumper would really set that off.

 

[Beedub]

and.... heres my "I'm special s54 inside T-shirt pic"



Thats a T-shirt ill wear any day

 

[Z4M-2006]

I think the only thing that is "special" about the boxster/ cayman/996/997 engine that was built in the same era of the S54 is how much a rebuild costs.

That's after trying to safeguard with a low power to cubic capacity ratio too..

The whole Porsche "thing" for from late 90's was disgrace to the brand.. Yes handling and steering was good, it's hard to get wrong in a mid engined car... Even an MR2 is great..

Interior design and quality was poor, the quality of all the mechanical components was poor.. So much so that for the past 5 years or so a mechanical failure could write the car off. Nobody likes to say it but apart from turbo and GT editions the rest of what Porsche built for 10 yrs + was crap..

They are the Rolex of the car industry... Nothing special but have a fantastic marketing department.


That said.. I do love how the new cayman looks, only time will tell if its any good though..

 

[Beedub]

I think the only thing that is "special" about the boxster/ cayman/996/997 engine that was built in the same era of the S54 is how much a rebuild costs.

That's after trying to safeguard with a low power to cubic capacity ratio too..

The whole Porsche "thing" for from late 90's was disgrace to the brand.. Yes handling and steering was good, it's hard to get wrong in a mid engined car... Even an MR2 is great..

Interior design and quality was poor, the quality of all the mechanical components was poor.. So much so that for the past 5 years or so a mechanical failure could write the car off. Nobody likes to say it but apart from turbo and GT editions the rest of what Porsche built for 10 yrs + was crap..

They are the Rolex of the car industry... Nothing special but have a fantastic marketing department.


That said.. I do love how the new cayman looks, only time will tell if its any good though..

the new cayman/boxster GTS are serious cars, id love one but the pricing is no joke either.

 

[abar121]

A friend had a lovely MK1 996 GT3 in good health and a Z4M, lucky git. It didn't matter who was driving the GT3, on track the Zed would edge away under acceleration - always. The Z4M, being identical in weight to a CSL (with a/c), was all but identical to a MK2 GT3 in straight line pace, just losing out at the top end on quicker tracks.

 

[Z4M-2006]

I think the only thing that is "special" about the boxster/ cayman/996/997 engine that was built in the same era of the S54 is how much a rebuild costs.

That's after trying to safeguard with a low power to cubic capacity ratio too..

The whole Porsche "thing" for from late 90's was disgrace to the brand.. Yes handling and steering was good, it's hard to get wrong in a mid engined car... Even an MR2 is great..

Interior design and quality was poor, the quality of all the mechanical components was poor.. So much so that for the past 5 years or so a mechanical failure could write the car off. Nobody likes to say it but apart from turbo and GT editions the rest of what Porsche built for 10 yrs + was crap..

They are the Rolex of the car industry... Nothing special but have a fantastic marketing department.


That said.. I do love how the new cayman looks, only time will tell if its any good though..

the new cayman/boxster GTS are serious cars, id love one but the pricing is no joke either.

Totally agree...

The cayman in particular takes my eye, maybe a whe before I could justify the pricing though..

Hopefully by that time any big problems with the DFi will be apparent..

 

[Babw]

and.... heres my "I'm special s54 inside T-shirt pic"



Thats a T-shirt ill wear any day

Well that's hardly a standard S54.

I'm guessing you're going to tell me boosting an S54 just enhances the character of it? Is this character something we can put in a quantifiable way or do you have to read lots of motoring journals + spend time on forums to know when you have it?

Do you think when the BMW engineers go to make an engine on the top of their list is - add character? There's no arguing compared to an M54 the S54 revs better has a better throttle response, produces more HP + TQ etc so there we go it's better. It's just when you start comparing it to obviously better engines such as the S65, S55 the S54 owners start bringing in these non verifiable, non standardised ways of claiming superiority.

I can understand if say "You know what I just like the way the S54 sounds compared to most other engines." Just don't start making sweeping statements like "S54 is special, everyone knows that. It's legendary." Maybe to you but not to everyone else. Again I understand I might be in the minority on this forum but I have no doubt there have been 100's probably 1000's of S54 engined owners who just regard it as an engine and have moved onto other cars which have engines coupled to a better car (in their eyes) which have left them with longer lasting impressions.

By the way regarding your keyboard warrior gesture - I'm a surgeon and lecture regularly, maybe I'm just used to speaking of fact more than you are as I'm no salesman. If I start offering procedures to patient on how it might make them feel and not on facts/success rates I'd be on the end of many lawsuits so don't make stupid assumptions.

 

[Beedub]

and.... heres my "I'm special s54 inside T-shirt pic"



Thats a T-shirt ill wear any day

Well that's hardly a standard S54. I'm guessing you're going to tell me boosting an S54 just enhances the character of it? Is this character something we can put in a quantifiable way or do you have to read lots of motoring journals + spend time on forums?