cars been bumped (whilst at BMW Rochdale)
- Thread starter Taz
- Start date
teamemmenracing said:
This is the most appalling advice. Never ever start proceedings against another party unless (a) other avenues have been shown to be exhausted, and (b) you have written advice from your solicitor advising you that the prospects of success are very good. If you start proceedings and lose (or start proceedings and stop them), you will have to pay the other sides costs (in addition to your own). Legal costs of proceedings will vastly exceed the costs of the repair. If you start proceedings without exhausting civil letters setting out your case and the position of the other side, your conduct may be considered frivolous, and your conduct will count against you in a hearing on costs.
The law is an ass ... it is not always clear. Only idiots prance into battle without checking how the land lies first.
srhutch said:
I recall when I studied contract law (admittedly some time ago) that such a sign is not enforcable. It suggests that the company cannot be liable for anything whatsoever. This cannot be. So if a BMW employee reverses you car into a wall at the dealership, the sign suggests that they are not responsible/liable. - Rubbish.
Taz, i'd advise in investing in 30 minutes with a solictor.
Ok summary of conversation:
Mr Z - BMW will try to avoid liability at all costs. Check the sign in the car park for any disclaimer - could you have seen it....?
Mr Z - Was the car ready for pick up from previous repair work? It could help in the event of a dispute if your car wasnt ready for pick up, as it shouldnt be parked in the customer car park if not ready for pre-arranged pick up?
Mr Z's advice is to talk to Mrs X and pursue her insurance company. If she doesnt cooperate, get a quote from BMW for repair (backed by a warranty). Send the quote to her insurers demanding payment.
As others have said - you might need to get nasty on this one. It's likely given BMWs stance that the answer lies with Mrs X and not BMW though.
Mr Z - BMW will try to avoid liability at all costs. Check the sign in the car park for any disclaimer - could you have seen it....?
srhutch said:
Mr Z - Was the car ready for pick up from previous repair work? It could help in the event of a dispute if your car wasnt ready for pick up, as it shouldnt be parked in the customer car park if not ready for pre-arranged pick up?
Mr Z's advice is to talk to Mrs X and pursue her insurance company. If she doesnt cooperate, get a quote from BMW for repair (backed by a warranty). Send the quote to her insurers demanding payment.
As others have said - you might need to get nasty on this one. It's likely given BMWs stance that the answer lies with Mrs X and not BMW though.
krusty said:
Well thats one opinion ..... and you are entitled to it. By starting procedings, I think I said "ie get a brief to write a letter saying prodecings are starting....."
Maybe I was unclear ....... writing the letter is only the start of the procedure, which is where it usually stops. No brief would proceed or allow you to proceed unless there was a case to win. The point of starting the procedure ..... is because a legal brief is the expert, and you are not ........ they dont rely on 20 different peoples different opinions, they rely on the law.
I have 2 instances where I used this succesfully, once against an insurance company over a 150 quid claim ..... and one with an estate agent who billed me 10 grand for services not rendered. Both were settled within 24 hrs.
I also have work experience where .......... squabbles about who owes what to who ......... are allowed to run their course on the basis of they may go away, and even if they don't, there is no extra cost...... so why bother - until a legal letter drops through the door ..... and its settle now before the costs get out of control.
It was only offered as advice .............. and I duly appologise if I have appalled anyone.
Adamski said:srhutch said:
If it had been a BMW member of staff, things may have been different. But from what Taz has said, reckon BMW will pin all laibility on Mrs X, and want nothing more to do with it.... :thumbsdown:
If the dealer themselves had damaged the car I don't think this thread would have gone on as long as I'm sure the dealer would have sorted. But as it was another customer it's a different story so long as the dealer hasn't been negligent.
mason storm
Active member
Reading this briefly I can only conclude the the dealer is responsible as the car was in their care and they parked it when it got hit - end of storey as far as I can see. Especially if they parked it in the public part of the car park as it should be in the service area, I would say it would be different if you had just dropped it off or they had finished and you were collecting that day.
So yes if they are not playing ball i think it is worth seeing a solicitor or googling for a forum with advaice on insurance law which would be cheaper
If the shoe was on the other foot and you were driving one of their cars under your own insurance I don't think they would be impressed if you left the car in a car park and someone bumped it and you said it's up to them to argue with the third party.
So yes if they are not playing ball i think it is worth seeing a solicitor or googling for a forum with advaice on insurance law which would be cheaper
If the shoe was on the other foot and you were driving one of their cars under your own insurance I don't think they would be impressed if you left the car in a car park and someone bumped it and you said it's up to them to argue with the third party.
LOLteamemmenracing said:
Taz hope you get it sorted ok.
Just been reading this,no Zed for 8 weeks and then this happens,you must be gutted and very angry.I would have thought ,it was up to them to sort it for you.Wether it be duty of care,or customer relations,i think they have a moral responsibility to sort it for you.
Good luck hope your back on the road soon.
Good luck hope your back on the road soon.
Liverpool
Saw your car at BMW Rochdale today, but didn't immediately notice any damage.
However, does seem strange that it's always there when I take mine in
BTW, as I was booking it in, the conversation turned to the exorbitant cost of Insp1 & Insp2. They claimed the reason the cost of the Insp2 was almost double that of the Insp1 is down to valve clearances. I didn't bother pointing out their error. I'm glad it's only in for a follow-up to the leaking cam cover seal that was supposed to be fixed (in fact replaced during a standard Inspection) during the Insp1 3 months ago, as there's a published £18/day 'admin' charge for use of their 118D SE - don't know if they're going to waive it or not yet - but I can hire a Ford Ka for that from Enterprise.
However, does seem strange that it's always there when I take mine in
BTW, as I was booking it in, the conversation turned to the exorbitant cost of Insp1 & Insp2. They claimed the reason the cost of the Insp2 was almost double that of the Insp1 is down to valve clearances. I didn't bother pointing out their error. I'm glad it's only in for a follow-up to the leaking cam cover seal that was supposed to be fixed (in fact replaced during a standard Inspection) during the Insp1 3 months ago, as there's a published £18/day 'admin' charge for use of their 118D SE - don't know if they're going to waive it or not yet - but I can hire a Ford Ka for that from Enterprise.
krusty said:
Its a good point. But if you have exhausted all avenues ie: they won't hear reason, then get legal advice (credit card, insurers of your car etc). TeamMenacing is correct that you will get a different lmevel of answer. That dealership is probably hoping that you will just go away.
Best of luck dude. I'm amaized BMW HQ will have nothing to do with it. What do their customer service say?
Taz x,
Sorry to hear of this nonsense and really hope it can be sorted amicably however:
Not an expert on this type of problem so please don’t act on my advice without getting proper legal guidance if required. However here’s food for thought. Car insurance liability extends to its use and in general the person using is the driver of that vehicle and hence must be insured to basic UK requirements. Of course an owner can be liable for its use if the car is used by a driver (commercial vehicle insurance usually where a number of people use a fleet vehicle) but only in certain circumstance and where liability can extend to the owner through illegal use of the vehicle – allowing use with defective parts for example.
Now to the conundrum of this problem. At the time the Zed was moved from its original position to where the damage occurred then the Rochdale BMW employed driver/mechanic who moved the vehicle would need to be covered by the dealers insurance (including public liability insurance). All pretty standard stuff. The question then, in this case, is that the owner had no control over where, when and how the vehicle was parked prior to the collision and it could be argued that the dealers insurance (and indeed his/her liability) must apply until such time as full and complete control of the vehicle is handed back to the owner i.e the owner was in control of the vehicle at the time of the incident. For example where a garage takes a vehicle for a test drive and the garage employed test driver decides to park and get a coffee or whatever and the stationary vehicle is involved in a road traffic incident then the liability must fall on the garage and their insurance as direct control of the vehicle was not with the owner but with the garage employee.
So legal advice I think is the appropriate first resort if it cant get sorted. Citizens advice as ever can help identify a local lawyer where you get the first 30 mins for free to assess your case and see if its a runner.
As with all these types of matters meticulously record the interaction between you and the dealership. Record the nature of all telephone conversations and always ask them to confirm in writing to you any decision they may make. Likewise deal with them through written correspondence – recorded delivery or hand delivered. Try and avoid any arguments on the phone as this will generally get you nowhere. Often demonstrating a professional and considered approach to such matters is sufficient to get them to capitulate. AND DONT use legal action as a threat. Any recourse to a legal remedy should be a considered approach based on proper advice and let your lawyer make the formal contact.
Sorry to hear of this nonsense and really hope it can be sorted amicably however:
Not an expert on this type of problem so please don’t act on my advice without getting proper legal guidance if required. However here’s food for thought. Car insurance liability extends to its use and in general the person using is the driver of that vehicle and hence must be insured to basic UK requirements. Of course an owner can be liable for its use if the car is used by a driver (commercial vehicle insurance usually where a number of people use a fleet vehicle) but only in certain circumstance and where liability can extend to the owner through illegal use of the vehicle – allowing use with defective parts for example.
Now to the conundrum of this problem. At the time the Zed was moved from its original position to where the damage occurred then the Rochdale BMW employed driver/mechanic who moved the vehicle would need to be covered by the dealers insurance (including public liability insurance). All pretty standard stuff. The question then, in this case, is that the owner had no control over where, when and how the vehicle was parked prior to the collision and it could be argued that the dealers insurance (and indeed his/her liability) must apply until such time as full and complete control of the vehicle is handed back to the owner i.e the owner was in control of the vehicle at the time of the incident. For example where a garage takes a vehicle for a test drive and the garage employed test driver decides to park and get a coffee or whatever and the stationary vehicle is involved in a road traffic incident then the liability must fall on the garage and their insurance as direct control of the vehicle was not with the owner but with the garage employee.
So legal advice I think is the appropriate first resort if it cant get sorted. Citizens advice as ever can help identify a local lawyer where you get the first 30 mins for free to assess your case and see if its a runner.
As with all these types of matters meticulously record the interaction between you and the dealership. Record the nature of all telephone conversations and always ask them to confirm in writing to you any decision they may make. Likewise deal with them through written correspondence – recorded delivery or hand delivered. Try and avoid any arguments on the phone as this will generally get you nowhere. Often demonstrating a professional and considered approach to such matters is sufficient to get them to capitulate. AND DONT use legal action as a threat. Any recourse to a legal remedy should be a considered approach based on proper advice and let your lawyer make the formal contact.
Have been getting more annoyed thinking about this. As everyone indicates what I would do as a next step is to contact head office cc. BMR Rochdale. As everyone says – if one goes straight to legal action the courts will take a dim view - try reasoning with them first. If they don’t listen then if you do go to court it will be much faster…
I would send a letter to BMW head office explaining the facts briefly:
i.e: A third party damaged your car whilst it was with BMW Rochdale ("BMWR") to remedy a different fault. You should then set out what damage there has been. That BMWR have declined all liability and suggested to approach the third party for redress. I would then highlight that this is not the correct course of action and that BMWR should seek to compensate you/repair the damage themselves as:
BMWR have a duty under the contract for services which they entered into with you and to provide these to a reasonable level. You would anticipate that this would include not damaging your property.
If they have excluded liability for damage either through signage in the garage or in some papers presented to you, this would need to have been clearly drawn to your attention and agreed by you (you would like to see proof from them of how this was the case).
In any even any terms seeking to exclude liability would have to be fair (under UCTA) and seeking to exclude liability for damage where they have failed to take necessary precautions against this (i.e. by letting someone drive their car in their confined garage) would most likely not be 'fair'.
[As a slightly weaker argument, in addition to the contract point above, BMWR have a duty of care in tort towards you and your possessions (a 'special' duty) as a manufacturer towards a consumer which means that they can be liable for reasonably foreseeable economic loss caused by their actions. You could argue that it is reasonable to expect that a failure to protect your car would directly lead to the type of damage incurred.]
You can then say you are trying to resolve this quickly, that the damage caused would be easy and cheap for them to fix as they already have the car and a bodyshop etc. You should then give them a deadline for response (typically up to 14 days is reasonable for them) and finally, add that you will need to seek legal advice if they decline to be more reasonable.
Hopefully they should accept they were liable and get on with resolving this.
I would wait until you have exhausted this before muddying the waters with contacting the lady or informing your insurers...!!!!!
If the above fails then there are always other ways of skinning the cat for e.g ‘hang on a sec, have you mentioned this to your insurers and should I not be dealing with them?...” approach etc.
Good luck
PLEASE NOTE: The above is not meant to be legal advice just one concerned forumite trying to help another so do seek proper legal advice!
I would send a letter to BMW head office explaining the facts briefly:
i.e: A third party damaged your car whilst it was with BMW Rochdale ("BMWR") to remedy a different fault. You should then set out what damage there has been. That BMWR have declined all liability and suggested to approach the third party for redress. I would then highlight that this is not the correct course of action and that BMWR should seek to compensate you/repair the damage themselves as:
BMWR have a duty under the contract for services which they entered into with you and to provide these to a reasonable level. You would anticipate that this would include not damaging your property.
If they have excluded liability for damage either through signage in the garage or in some papers presented to you, this would need to have been clearly drawn to your attention and agreed by you (you would like to see proof from them of how this was the case).
In any even any terms seeking to exclude liability would have to be fair (under UCTA) and seeking to exclude liability for damage where they have failed to take necessary precautions against this (i.e. by letting someone drive their car in their confined garage) would most likely not be 'fair'.
[As a slightly weaker argument, in addition to the contract point above, BMWR have a duty of care in tort towards you and your possessions (a 'special' duty) as a manufacturer towards a consumer which means that they can be liable for reasonably foreseeable economic loss caused by their actions. You could argue that it is reasonable to expect that a failure to protect your car would directly lead to the type of damage incurred.]
You can then say you are trying to resolve this quickly, that the damage caused would be easy and cheap for them to fix as they already have the car and a bodyshop etc. You should then give them a deadline for response (typically up to 14 days is reasonable for them) and finally, add that you will need to seek legal advice if they decline to be more reasonable.
Hopefully they should accept they were liable and get on with resolving this.
I would wait until you have exhausted this before muddying the waters with contacting the lady or informing your insurers...!!!!!
If the above fails then there are always other ways of skinning the cat for e.g ‘hang on a sec, have you mentioned this to your insurers and should I not be dealing with them?...” approach etc.
Good luck
PLEASE NOTE: The above is not meant to be legal advice just one concerned forumite trying to help another so do seek proper legal advice!
Letter sounds good but for 3 bits..... .
1. Would not mention seeking legal advice just yet as this always sounds like a threat.
2. BMW UK are not responsible for dealers they merely franchise them to act in accordance with a code of BMW conduct. The strict liability is with BMW 'R' so any letter should go here first.
3. Do not mention the damage is a 'quick an easy to fix'. It is for them to determine and such a written comment could be used to weaken your case in the event of civil action being pursued.
1. Would not mention seeking legal advice just yet as this always sounds like a threat.
2. BMW UK are not responsible for dealers they merely franchise them to act in accordance with a code of BMW conduct. The strict liability is with BMW 'R' so any letter should go here first.
3. Do not mention the damage is a 'quick an easy to fix'. It is for them to determine and such a written comment could be used to weaken your case in the event of civil action being pursued.
Had a look tonight as I went to pick mine up.
The damage appears to be a 100mm round scuff in the centre of the driver's door, and it looks like the contact that caused that has also 'popped' the panel in slightly.
Couldn't get a decent photo in the car park lights (let me know if you want it removed from this post).
The damage appears to be a 100mm round scuff in the centre of the driver's door, and it looks like the contact that caused that has also 'popped' the panel in slightly.
Couldn't get a decent photo in the car park lights (let me know if you want it removed from this post).