Brake pads for track only use?
- Thread starter ga41
- Start date
Liverpool
I didn't have a problem with the Yellowstuffs, but I'm now running Bluestuffs - although only got 1000 road miles on them. They're not making any noise as far as I can hear, and they're working fine from cold (0ºc on Saturday morning), but so are my Michelin PSS at the same temps (once the tyre has warmed up over 5 miles or so).
Only ever tried the RS29 Pagids in my AP brakes (330mm, 4-pot, braided hoses, DOT 5.1 fluid) on my Corrado VR6, and I thought they worked quite well, but at over £250 for an axle set every 3 track days, I decided to try something else, so tried DS2000, DS2500, DS3000 and compared to the Yellowstuff found them worse, worse, and comparable respectively.
My last set of yellows lasted me 30,000 miles - including over 50 laps of the 'Ring (fronts had 3mm pad material left, rears had 8mm) - but I'm not particularly heavy on brakes and prefer to come of the pedal earlier to settle the car before a corner, than waiting until the last minute to slam on (but then I've never had an on-track accident since I started doing them 15 years ago). After all it's only a track day, not a race - and most race pads are meant for 20-40 minutes of (ab)use at a time.
Different pads suit different driving styles, and I know plenty of racers (from a marshalling standpoint) who use EBC yellow/blue/orange pads as a budget (i.e. 50% cheaper) option over Pagid/Ferodo - and they still manage to be competitive.
Only ever tried the RS29 Pagids in my AP brakes (330mm, 4-pot, braided hoses, DOT 5.1 fluid) on my Corrado VR6, and I thought they worked quite well, but at over £250 for an axle set every 3 track days, I decided to try something else, so tried DS2000, DS2500, DS3000 and compared to the Yellowstuff found them worse, worse, and comparable respectively.
My last set of yellows lasted me 30,000 miles - including over 50 laps of the 'Ring (fronts had 3mm pad material left, rears had 8mm) - but I'm not particularly heavy on brakes and prefer to come of the pedal earlier to settle the car before a corner, than waiting until the last minute to slam on (but then I've never had an on-track accident since I started doing them 15 years ago). After all it's only a track day, not a race - and most race pads are meant for 20-40 minutes of (ab)use at a time.
Different pads suit different driving styles, and I know plenty of racers (from a marshalling standpoint) who use EBC yellow/blue/orange pads as a budget (i.e. 50% cheaper) option over Pagid/Ferodo - and they still manage to be competitive.
Thank you for your post mmm-five.
I know that asking "what pads do i use?" is like asking for medical advice over the phone but unfortunately local knowledge is not that good out here and the only recommendation i've had from a friend who i trust was "Pagid RS14 or RS15s." The end.
My driving style is still quite rough around the edges, i.e. heavy on the brakes, late braking and so on. With that i've not experienced any brake pad fade with my Stoptech pads but i do get fluid fade/boil. I've sorted that almost using good brake fluid but ideally i'd like more bite with my pads, more braking force without having to slam on them, which is why i started this thread.
Are you planning on a track day with your Blues mmm-five?
I know that asking "what pads do i use?" is like asking for medical advice over the phone but unfortunately local knowledge is not that good out here and the only recommendation i've had from a friend who i trust was "Pagid RS14 or RS15s." The end.
My driving style is still quite rough around the edges, i.e. heavy on the brakes, late braking and so on. With that i've not experienced any brake pad fade with my Stoptech pads but i do get fluid fade/boil. I've sorted that almost using good brake fluid but ideally i'd like more bite with my pads, more braking force without having to slam on them, which is why i started this thread.
Are you planning on a track day with your Blues mmm-five?
Mine won'r be back on track until at least February, probably at Oulton Park - which has a nice 120mph-40mph downhill braking section which really works the brakes.
Other than that, it will be our private day at the 'Ring in probably April where they'll get their biggest test, as there'll only be 50-60 cars there which means we'll be able to do 50 las in a day - although you'd probably not manage that many due to having to go to the petrol station every 90 minutes.
The other thing to look at is operating temps of the pads, as some pads just don't work on the road due to them needing 200ºC to get them to bite, and normal driving just doesn't get them that hot.
I assume you've got decent fluid, braided hoses, etc. as the hotter the pads/discs get the more heat you'll transfer to the fluid.
Are you also 'hinting' the pads before you need to do a huge brake. It's something that's common with racers and hard driving track-day drivers where you brush the brake pedal enough for it to contact the disc and create a bit of heat, but not enough to slow the car, just before you come into the braking area. You then have a pre-warmed pad & disc for when you come to brake hard and means you don't have that initial (1/10th of a second maybe) lack of retardation.
Other than that, it will be our private day at the 'Ring in probably April where they'll get their biggest test, as there'll only be 50-60 cars there which means we'll be able to do 50 las in a day - although you'd probably not manage that many due to having to go to the petrol station every 90 minutes.
The other thing to look at is operating temps of the pads, as some pads just don't work on the road due to them needing 200ºC to get them to bite, and normal driving just doesn't get them that hot.
I assume you've got decent fluid, braided hoses, etc. as the hotter the pads/discs get the more heat you'll transfer to the fluid.
Are you also 'hinting' the pads before you need to do a huge brake. It's something that's common with racers and hard driving track-day drivers where you brush the brake pedal enough for it to contact the disc and create a bit of heat, but not enough to slow the car, just before you come into the braking area. You then have a pre-warmed pad & disc for when you come to brake hard and means you don't have that initial (1/10th of a second maybe) lack of retardation.
Yep, have braided brake lines, and Endless fluid comparable to Motul 660.
I did try experimenting with a more gradual press instead of a full on smash of the pedal but it takes practice to knock off the habit. Next time i'll try the technique you mention. Our track is not that fast really, fastest part you get up to 150-155kph (around 100mph?) but i still find i need to use my brakes hard as it's a very twisty track and our cars are heavy for their size. I guess with even more practice i'll end up using the brakes less instead of more but we'll see. It's fun to experiment.
I did try experimenting with a more gradual press instead of a full on smash of the pedal but it takes practice to knock off the habit. Next time i'll try the technique you mention. Our track is not that fast really, fastest part you get up to 150-155kph (around 100mph?) but i still find i need to use my brakes hard as it's a very twisty track and our cars are heavy for their size. I guess with even more practice i'll end up using the brakes less instead of more but we'll see. It's fun to experiment.
Mine's not a soft press or a hard mash of the pedal. I use the same total amount of force as anyone else, but after the initial 'hint' a second or two before the braking point, I tend to hit the brakes quite hard initially and ease off as I approach my turn-in point.
This means that if I've got it wrong I can apply a bit more braking to slow before the turn-in point.
If I do it the opposite way where I press gently and then harder & harder, I've got nothing left if I find I need more braking.
It also means the brakes are getting hottest whilst they're also being cooled most effectively at the higher speeds and then still cooling off as the pedal is eased back. The other way around would mean the brakes getting hotter & hotter as the cooling effect from speed is reducing.
It probably took me 2-3 track days to get out of my old method of mashing the pedal as hard as I could until I'd slowed enough for the corner, but I had a couple of good GT instructors who were about 10 seconds a lap faster on their first lap in my car than I've ever managed - and they didn't squeal the tyres once, compared to my constant squealing (which of course it correct as if the tyres are squealing & going sideways then they're not providing traction going forward).
I probably don't try as hard on track as I used to, which has the benefit of making components last a bit longer and making me enjoy it a bit more
This means that if I've got it wrong I can apply a bit more braking to slow before the turn-in point.
If I do it the opposite way where I press gently and then harder & harder, I've got nothing left if I find I need more braking.
It also means the brakes are getting hottest whilst they're also being cooled most effectively at the higher speeds and then still cooling off as the pedal is eased back. The other way around would mean the brakes getting hotter & hotter as the cooling effect from speed is reducing.
It probably took me 2-3 track days to get out of my old method of mashing the pedal as hard as I could until I'd slowed enough for the corner, but I had a couple of good GT instructors who were about 10 seconds a lap faster on their first lap in my car than I've ever managed - and they didn't squeal the tyres once, compared to my constant squealing (which of course it correct as if the tyres are squealing & going sideways then they're not providing traction going forward).
I probably don't try as hard on track as I used to, which has the benefit of making components last a bit longer and making me enjoy it a bit more
Good tips 
I'm still in the "I CAN OUTDRIVE ANYONE!" phase, nothing dangerous of course, i give way to faster 'drivers, i don't pressure slower drivers, but i still try my hardest to drop down lap times. It's a new track, everyone's trying to prove themselves and i'm still young and foolish.
I'm still in the "I CAN OUTDRIVE ANYONE!" phase, nothing dangerous of course, i give way to faster 'drivers, i don't pressure slower drivers, but i still try my hardest to drop down lap times. It's a new track, everyone's trying to prove themselves and i'm still young and foolish.
Having spent Saturday thrashing my car around a track and "OUTDRIVING EVERYONE" ** I can absolutely recommend yellow stuff pads. I followed mmmfive's wise words to try them and about optimising braking performance after eating an entire set of OEM pads on a track day about 18 months ago. My current set of pads have lasted 15,000 often very hard road miles and survived Saturday too. I had a minor problem with smoking from all four sets of pads after my opening three laps, but this was because I'd left the DSC switched on whilst I got a feel for the track. It's amazing how active it is under duress, and how much it holds back the performance of the car. The light was flashing in ever corner, suggesting that the brakes were active for about 50% of the lap, hence the overheating. With DSC switched off I was able to drive far faster and harder, and the brakes were faultless *** (standard OEM discs and lines, but uprated fluid).
** especially a guy in a GT3 and a E46 M3
*** In fact, the only braking problem I had was as the sun was setting and condensation was forming on the track surface. I overtook an RX8 at the end of a straight, so I was off the racing line under braking. I couldn't scrub off as much speed on the moist surface as I usually would for that particular bend. I rounded a 120 degree corner about 20 mph faster than I intended lost the back end. It all seemed beautifully controlled for about half a second as I steered into it and started to reapply the power. Unfortunately this led to a particularly graceless 720 degree doughnut in a huge cloud of smoke!
** especially a guy in a GT3 and a E46 M3
*** In fact, the only braking problem I had was as the sun was setting and condensation was forming on the track surface. I overtook an RX8 at the end of a straight, so I was off the racing line under braking. I couldn't scrub off as much speed on the moist surface as I usually would for that particular bend. I rounded a 120 degree corner about 20 mph faster than I intended lost the back end. It all seemed beautifully controlled for about half a second as I steered into it and started to reapply the power. Unfortunately this led to a particularly graceless 720 degree doughnut in a huge cloud of smoke!