buzyg said:A sports car should be a challenge to drive, well. You should have to invest time and effort to learn how to get the best out of it. You then bond with the car. Then you get soooo much more from the experience.
That's one of the reasons I like the Caterham I bought. It's a lot of fun to drive, But one needs to be on their toes or at least drive within their abilities. I.E. You the pilot needs to be in control.
Adding driver aids diminishes this. The M3 and M5 are in no way whatsoever sports cars. IMO
While an M3 or M5 might not be a sports car in the classic sense. They are as quick as most of the sports cars today. It wasn't too long ago that the performance/ fun factor gap between a family car and a sports car was as wide as the English channel. That gap is far narrower than it used to be.
Sports cars are not racing cars, masses of grip and speed are not really what’s needed. Personally acceleration is what is king. Traveling at 60mph down a ditch lined country lane is far more of an experience, for me, that traveling at 185 down Bruntingthorp’s main runway was.
Amen, I came from a motorcycle back ground (I've owned 39 bikes in my life) Excitement does not ALWAYS mean ultimate terminal velocity. I've always been happier at less than hyper speeds on a twisty back road. Even If I wring the neck of my X-Flow seven I might see 110MPH. And yet even if I drive in a sedate manner in my seven and get passed by a bunch of Chav cars. When I get to my destination, Guess what car everyone will gather around to look at and ask questions about?
Taking the roof off, adds noise and wind in your face. This does not make the car go faster. But it does increase the peripheral overload and that is all part of the sports car experience.
The Zed roadster is great at that. But it's hard to beat the seven for peripheral and sensory overload. Plus being able to lean slightly and put my hand on the ground from the drivers seat adds loads to the seat of the pants experience of my seven.
Hope at least some of that makes sense to somebody.
Are sports cars dying out?
- Thread starter StevenH72
- Start date
For me it is all about the involvement, not the best performance.
I actually prefer to drive my Golf Clipper, it is so basic that it involves a lot - but is not particularly fast. The Abarth with DCT might be fast, but nowhere near as much fun because of the DCT box.
Hence that if I move to a 911, I would only want a manual.
I actually prefer to drive my Golf Clipper, it is so basic that it involves a lot - but is not particularly fast. The Abarth with DCT might be fast, but nowhere near as much fun because of the DCT box.
Hence that if I move to a 911, I would only want a manual.
ronk said:I nearly jumped ship for a "traditional" sports car prior to buying the E89.
I had an itch that needed a scratch and had a test drive in Morgan - Yes I was involved - Tremendous 30's looks but not a relaxing experience - I was a happy man when I got back into my E85 .
Funny how people's perceptions and expectation's differ so much. But it would be a very boring world should we all act like clones.
Yet I find the term sports car and relaxing experience to be an oxymoron and is one of the main issues with sports cars these days. Anymore, sports cars are just two door two seater yachts. They are sports cars in name and styling only. I think that If one is too old and frail to enjoy a true sports car, then don't get one. Instead we expect the manufacturer to dumb down the sports car to the old geezer level. My body told me it was time to move on from sport bikes, so I did. What I didn't do was go shopping for a trike, I switched to a sports car. When my body tells me that a low slung car is to much, I'll move on to a sporty saloon. Eventually I will have to face the fact that I will one day be driving my dad's Oldsmobile.
I was quite the opposite as you concerning my 356 replica and now my Caterham. My 356 and the Caterham are great fun at any speed. They are even fun at a standstill, as they garner so much attention. I have never had so many thumbs up and pictures taken while out and about in the Caterham, Lots of folks ask questions about it. The social aspect of the seven and my 356 is something that I enjoy. I like talking to
people, I never had that with the Zed.
Maybe relaxing was a wrong word - Lack of precision might have been a better phrase! It seemed that any lack of concentration and I would have been in the ditch. Hard work and almost like being on a horse.
I'm not quite a basket case yet and did contemplate a Westfield - I had one spec'd up a few years ago and was all ready to go - until a codger in a Nissan Almera decided that a right turn without using his mirror was a good idea. He smacked into my wife's door - She was unhappy about a Westfield from then on. Hence the Z4
I suppose the 7 will get plenty of attention in Germany. I didn't see many of them about (I've only seen one of them in years) , having said that there weren't many Zeds about either.
Having said all that, I still fancy a 7 or a Westfield - Swmbo says I can have one but she will not ride in it!
I cannot see a time that I will ever have an ordinary or boring car that is merely transport!
I'm not quite a basket case yet and did contemplate a Westfield - I had one spec'd up a few years ago and was all ready to go - until a codger in a Nissan Almera decided that a right turn without using his mirror was a good idea. He smacked into my wife's door - She was unhappy about a Westfield from then on. Hence the Z4
I suppose the 7 will get plenty of attention in Germany. I didn't see many of them about (I've only seen one of them in years) , having said that there weren't many Zeds about either.
Having said all that, I still fancy a 7 or a Westfield - Swmbo says I can have one but she will not ride in it!
I cannot see a time that I will ever have an ordinary or boring car that is merely transport!
bigdog said:buzyg said:A sports car should be a challenge to drive, well. You should have to invest time and effort to learn how to get the best out of it. You then bond with the car. Then you get soooo much more from the experience.
That's one of the reasons I like the Caterham I bought. It's a lot of fun to drive, But one needs to be on their toes or at least drive within their abilities. I.E. You the pilot needs to be in control.
Adding driver aids diminishes this. The M3 and M5 are in no way whatsoever sports cars. IMO
While an M3 or M5 might not be a sports car in the classic sense. They are as quick as most of the sports cars today. It wasn't too long ago that the performance/ fun factor gap between a family car and a sports car was as wide as the English channel. That gap is far narrower than it used to be.
Sports cars are not racing cars, masses of grip and speed are not really what’s needed. Personally acceleration is what is king. Traveling at 60mph down a ditch lined country lane is far more of an experience, for me, that traveling at 185 down Bruntingthorp’s main runway was.
Amen, I came from a motorcycle back ground (I've owned 39 bikes in my life) Excitement does not ALWAYS mean ultimate terminal velocity. I've always been happier at less than hyper speeds on a twisty back road. Even If I wring the neck of my X-Flow seven I might see 110MPH. And yet even if I drive in a sedate manner in my seven and get passed by a bunch of Chav cars. When I get to my destination, Guess what car everyone will gather around to look at and ask questions about?
Taking the roof off, adds noise and wind in your face. This does not make the car go faster. But it does increase the peripheral overload and that is all part of the sports car experience.
The Zed roadster is great at that. But it's hard to beat the seven for peripheral and sensory overload. Plus being able to lean slightly and put my hand on the ground from the drivers seat adds loads to the seat of the pants experience of my seven.
Hope at least some of that makes sense to somebody.
If only I could get in a Seven or an Elise or a Cobra Rep, I'd have bought one 15 years ago. Heck I can't even fit in an Mx5.
I do wish the Zed was 500kg lighter, but fortunatley in M spec it just about has the grunt brakes and steering to compensate for being a Lard Arse.
I have to disagree with bigdog, there is no reason why a sports car cannot be comfortable, rock hard suspension is not a requisite for agility or road holding but body control is. One of these modern gimmicks is active suspension which offers the best of both dependant on mood
Some brilliant thoughts particularly about involvement, weight and not necessarily outright power being the key elements that make a sports car.
A generation of owners have never driven a car without power steering, ABS or stability but the difference in feel and judgement of grip is startling and a real education in car control. Something like the new budget Caterham 160 proves what can be done with a basic set-up using just 80 BHP for 0-60 in 6.5 secs and go-cart handling.
http://uk.caterhamcars.com/cars/seven-160
A generation of owners have never driven a car without power steering, ABS or stability but the difference in feel and judgement of grip is startling and a real education in car control. Something like the new budget Caterham 160 proves what can be done with a basic set-up using just 80 BHP for 0-60 in 6.5 secs and go-cart handling.
http://uk.caterhamcars.com/cars/seven-160
I don't know where I saw it but I read a great definition of a sports car. It may not be current.
A 2 seater roofless car that requires a luggage rack in order that a cad may take his secretary away for a dirty weekend.
A 2 seater roofless car that requires a luggage rack in order that a cad may take his secretary away for a dirty weekend.
sars said:
I'll put my thoughts in sport bike terms. A sport bike has high ground clearance, Very low mounted handlebars, Stiff suspension, And a short wheelbase and steep fork angle. All of these allow the bike to initiate a turn more quickly and obtain silly lean angles. Now if one thinks they are uncomfortable because of this, they would be spot on.
There are two ways to remedy this.
Firstly, Lower the bike so it's easier to get on and off, put high handlebars on so one isn't leaned so far forward, And increase the wheelbase and relax the fork angle to provide more straight line stability, And put on a large windscreen. What you have gone and done is to change a sport bike into a touring bike.
Secondly, Go and buy a Goldwing and leave the sporty stuff sporty. It just dilutes the sport bikes DNA into something that it isn't nor shouldn't be. It's the same with sports cars.
Great picture of Garry Mcoy there on his zx10
A sports car is a different beast to different people; hell there was someone in my office who said they had bought themselves a sports car only when they showed me the "new sporty little number" I was presented with a ford street Ka.
They went on the premise that two seats does a sports car make.
A sports car is a different beast to different people; hell there was someone in my office who said they had bought themselves a sports car only when they showed me the "new sporty little number" I was presented with a ford street Ka.
They went on the premise that two seats does a sports car make.This thread has spawned some really interesting thought and replies. Loving it.
To go all semantic for a moment, if you think about the word "sport" it usually implies some sort of competition. That can be competition with others or yourself, pushing yourself to previously unachieved heights of ... whatever. So if you apply the word to a car in that context you invariably end up with a car that is going to require more than the usual driving skill set to handle.
On the other hand, there are sports shirts ...
For most non-professional car owners I'd say that having a car that is fully specced for "sport" is probably impractical so it has to be a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too sports car, which is pretty much where the Z4 falls in line (at least my old E85 does), I think. It's sporty, to be sure, but I wouldn't even think of taking it to the track, for example, because a) more dedicated, souped-up designs would eat it for lunch and b) it might get scratched.
To me the Z4 is just a "fun car" that will probably never see a day of "sport" in it's lifetime. That's fine with me, but the definition of "fun" is so broad that I have no expectations that others will agree. I want to be able to whip it around the mountain roads (without killing myself), and then I want to take it on long trips without requiring weeks of physical therapy for lower back problems afterward. I doubt that a car that was actually designed to win in a sporting situation would give me that pleasure. For the same reason I'm all for the technology that makes the car safer and easier to handle when necessary.
I'm rambling, but I guess the upshot is that I'd feel no loss if it was officially decided that the Z4 isn't a real sports car. But since cars like the Toyota 86 are ostensibly sports cars, I'm assuming the label will stick. Perhaps they should be called "sporty cars."
To go all semantic for a moment, if you think about the word "sport" it usually implies some sort of competition. That can be competition with others or yourself, pushing yourself to previously unachieved heights of ... whatever. So if you apply the word to a car in that context you invariably end up with a car that is going to require more than the usual driving skill set to handle.
On the other hand, there are sports shirts ...
For most non-professional car owners I'd say that having a car that is fully specced for "sport" is probably impractical so it has to be a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too sports car, which is pretty much where the Z4 falls in line (at least my old E85 does), I think. It's sporty, to be sure, but I wouldn't even think of taking it to the track, for example, because a) more dedicated, souped-up designs would eat it for lunch and b) it might get scratched.
To me the Z4 is just a "fun car" that will probably never see a day of "sport" in it's lifetime. That's fine with me, but the definition of "fun" is so broad that I have no expectations that others will agree. I want to be able to whip it around the mountain roads (without killing myself), and then I want to take it on long trips without requiring weeks of physical therapy for lower back problems afterward. I doubt that a car that was actually designed to win in a sporting situation would give me that pleasure. For the same reason I'm all for the technology that makes the car safer and easier to handle when necessary.
I'm rambling, but I guess the upshot is that I'd feel no loss if it was officially decided that the Z4 isn't a real sports car. But since cars like the Toyota 86 are ostensibly sports cars, I'm assuming the label will stick. Perhaps they should be called "sporty cars."
Sure is a lot of used Z4's in the US for sale, low prices & still not moving.
Dangerous-Dave said:Great picture of Garry Mcoy there on his zx10
A sports car is a different beast to different people; hell there was someone in my office who said they had bought themselves a sports car only when they showed me the "new sporty little number" I was presented with a ford street Ka.
Actualy the coupe sport Ka has plenty going for it, in the sports car stakes. light weight, fine chasis, punchyish little 1.6, manual gear box. Quite a decent threw down a country lane infact.
Rip out the rear seats and I might include it.
Unfortunately the open top adds weight and understeer and is a total girly shopping trolly. Or would be if there was any where to put some shopping :thumbsdown:
ZeeFore said:This thread has spawned some really interesting thought and replies. Loving it.
To go all semantic for a moment, if you think about the word "sport" it usually implies some sort of competition. That can be competition with others or yourself, pushing yourself to previously unachieved heights of ... whatever. So if you apply the word to a car in that context you invariably end up with a car that is going to require more than the usual driving skill set to handle.
On the other hand, there are sports shirts ...
For most non-professional car owners I'd say that having a car that is fully specced for "sport" is probably impractical so it has to be a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too sports car, which is pretty much where the Z4 falls in line (at least my old E85 does), I think. It's sporty, to be sure, but I wouldn't even think of taking it to the track, for example, because a) more dedicated, souped-up designs would eat it for lunch and b) it might get scratched.
To me the Z4 is just a "fun car" that will probably never see a day of "sport" in it's lifetime. That's fine with me, but the definition of "fun" is so broad that I have no expectations that others will agree. I want to be able to whip it around the mountain roads (without killing myself), and then I want to take it on long trips without requiring weeks of physical therapy for lower back problems afterward. I doubt that a car that was actually designed to win in a sporting situation would give me that pleasure. For the same reason I'm all for the technology that makes the car safer and easier to handle when necessary.
I'm rambling, but I guess the upshot is that I'd feel no loss if it was officially decided that the Z4 isn't a real sports car. But since cars like the Toyota 86 are ostensibly sports cars, I'm assuming the label will stick. Perhaps they should be called "sporty cars."
Well said. I think my over all point is that due to the customer base the category of sports car has been diluted over time. Most folks DON'T want a sports car, They just want a luxury car that looks like a sports car. Those customers are diluting the sports car DNA. There are great cars that folk can have a large amount of fun in that doesn't require telling a manufacturer to take their sports car and turn it into a slightly shrunken S-Class. That's why I say a modern sports car is mostly down to EGO and aesthetics, They aren't about the driving experience anymore. It's getting hard to find a basic open top "sports car", Even the MX-5 Miata has gained weight and girth, The Zed has gone down the same portly road as the MX-5. So one has to go extreme like I did with the seven, Or to the current class of large plus size models. There's not much in the middle ground that's not way over priced. The only thing out there (USA) without having a price that rivals buying a house is the Miata. The viper is OTT and expensive and as wide as a street, The Corvette is expensive and as wide as a street, Ford GT is hella expensive and as wide as a street, Audi R8,same. See a pattern here?