a little teaser...
- Thread starter Cheburator
- Start date
A
Anonymous
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Cheburator said:
Well I'm amazed,
however I still think others should ask their Insurance Co and give them details such as, special made bracket to enable the Porsche unit fit ,as well as cutting your own unit up to make them fit.It's not just about performance uplift's but any variation from the stock spec.
You all know what Ins Co's are like, any excuse
Cheburator
Member
ga41 said:
Correct - you only need 4 custom brackets and 8 bolts. I will be fitting SS braded lines, but you don't have to. I get the brackets made on a CNC machine by my race mechanic who helps look after the Porsche race car. The quality is good - we use the finest English double extra mature Cheddar to produce the brackets. Sometimes we use French brie, but that will cost extra...
There is no way in hell an insurance person would know that my dust shields at the rear have been modified... But I agree with you, it is better to tell them that you have fitted Porsche brakes and that the car has gone through a MOT. No need to explain about custom brackets. After all, if you want to fit AP Racing, MOVIT or Stoptech you will be using a bracket too...
P.S. In reality, the brackets are made of steel and fit perfectly. The last thing that I want on my mind when I am getting air on the approach to Schwedenkreuz in the car at 160mph is whether I had done a good job on the bracket
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Anonymous
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Cheburator said:
Wrong on both counts I'm afraid
Sorry to 'rain on your parade' but I don't want to see any member here's Ins Co reneging on any future claim because the mod's have not been disclosed properly.
Cheburator said:ga41 said:
Correct - you only need 4 custom brackets and 8 bolts. I will be fitting SS braded lines, but you don't have to. I get the brackets made on a CNC machine by my race mechanic who helps look after the Porsche race car. The quality is good - we use the finest English double extra mature Cheddar to produce the brackets. Sometimes we use French brie, but that will cost extra...
There is no way in hell an insurance person would know that my dust shields at the rear have been modified... But I agree with you, it is better to tell them that you have fitted Porsche brakes and that the car has gone through a MOT. No need to explain about custom brackets. After all, if you want to fit AP Racing, MOVIT or Stoptech you will be using a bracket too...
P.S. In reality, the brackets are made of steel and fit perfectly. The last thing that I want on my mind when I am getting air on the approach to Schwedenkreuz in the car at 160mph is whether I had done a good job on the bracket
I've already got braided lines but havent installed them yet.. By the way my insurance company wont know the difference at all, i once asked them if changing to an aftermarket exhaust changes anything and they asked me: "Will it increase the cubic capacity?" -"Well, no." "Then it's OK."
Now say i want to go with this setup, would you be able to sell me brackets/bolts? Or perhaps point to someplace that does?
Cheburator
Member
ga41 said:Cheburator said:ga41 said:
Correct - you only need 4 custom brackets and 8 bolts. I will be fitting SS braded lines, but you don't have to. I get the brackets made on a CNC machine by my race mechanic who helps look after the Porsche race car. The quality is good - we use the finest English double extra mature Cheddar to produce the brackets. Sometimes we use French brie, but that will cost extra...
There is no way in hell an insurance person would know that my dust shields at the rear have been modified... But I agree with you, it is better to tell them that you have fitted Porsche brakes and that the car has gone through a MOT. No need to explain about custom brackets. After all, if you want to fit AP Racing, MOVIT or Stoptech you will be using a bracket too...
P.S. In reality, the brackets are made of steel and fit perfectly. The last thing that I want on my mind when I am getting air on the approach to Schwedenkreuz in the car at 160mph is whether I had done a good job on the bracket
I've already got braided lines but havent installed them yet.. By the way my insurance company wont know the difference at all, i once asked them if changing to an aftermarket exhaust changes anything and they asked me: "Will it increase the cubic capacity?" -"Well, no." "Then it's OK."
Now say i want to go with this setup, would you be able to sell me brackets/bolts? Or perhaps point to someplace that does?
Agree on the insurance front and have a suggestion... Let's leave the question of declaring or not declaring mods outside of the scope of this topic. Most of us are grown up individuals who I believe are capable of looking after our own interest most of the time.
I can supply the brackets and bolts, which means that eBay is your friend with regards to the calipers. Alternatively, I can supply new calipers from Porsche on top of the brackets and bolts, but the costs will go up.
I will not become rich overnight with this kit, but I would be happy if I can offset some of the costs of my brake upgrade.
Another question if you will (starting to get annoying, i'm sorry 
) am i right in believing that there are at least 3 different brake callipers on recent 911's, the silver and black ones from the Carrera 2 and 4, the red ones from the Turbo, the C4S and GT3 and the big yellow ones (carbon ceramic disks).
The brackets that you've had made, are for which ones? The black/silver AND big red?
) am i right in believing that there are at least 3 different brake callipers on recent 911's, the silver and black ones from the Carrera 2 and 4, the red ones from the Turbo, the C4S and GT3 and the big yellow ones (carbon ceramic disks). The brackets that you've had made, are for which ones? The black/silver AND big red?
Did you need to make any changes to the master cylinder given that the Porsche caliper will almost certainly be running a different master to slave ratio to stock? Result is going to either be more travel or more pedal effort for a given applied brake force.
Not a criticism, just curios (so speaks the guy who welds and bolts any brake combination, changed drums to disk, etc onto off road Jeeps to get appropriate performance )
Not a criticism, just curios (so speaks the guy who welds and bolts any brake combination, changed drums to disk, etc onto off road Jeeps to get appropriate performance
)Cheburator
Member
No, I am not annoyed, after all I started the thread, thus I should expect questions...
The calipers used are the ones off Carerra 2, 4, Boxster S, Cayman S. You are correct that the Carerra 4S, 996GT3, 996TT and 997S use a bigger caliper. I spoke to a few guys who built and maintain race cars at the Nurburgring and they adviced that the bigger pad will be too much for our discs. Remember, Porsche uses 32mm, while ours are 28mm. The smaller Carerra 2 caliper is just right in terms of pad size vs. breaking vs. disc cooling and longevity.
Good question on the master cylinder - I follow the logic that E46M3 and E46M3 CSLs get the AP Racing front and rear upgrade without doing anything to the master cylinder. Given that the Porsche upgrade is similar and if anything smaller than the AP in terms of caliper pistons volume, we should be ok. Of course, I will not know until I am hurtling towards the armco frantically trying to smash the brake pedal into the carpet
The calipers used are the ones off Carerra 2, 4, Boxster S, Cayman S. You are correct that the Carerra 4S, 996GT3, 996TT and 997S use a bigger caliper. I spoke to a few guys who built and maintain race cars at the Nurburgring and they adviced that the bigger pad will be too much for our discs. Remember, Porsche uses 32mm, while ours are 28mm. The smaller Carerra 2 caliper is just right in terms of pad size vs. breaking vs. disc cooling and longevity.
Good question on the master cylinder - I follow the logic that E46M3 and E46M3 CSLs get the AP Racing front and rear upgrade without doing anything to the master cylinder. Given that the Porsche upgrade is similar and if anything smaller than the AP in terms of caliper pistons volume, we should be ok. Of course, I will not know until I am hurtling towards the armco frantically trying to smash the brake pedal into the carpet
Cheburator said:No, I am not annoyed, after all I started the thread, thus I should expect questions...
The calipers used are the ones off Carerra 2, 4, Boxster S, Cayman S. You are correct that the Carerra 4S, 996GT3, 996TT and 997S use a bigger caliper. I spoke to a few guys who built and maintain race cars at the Nurburgring and they adviced that the bigger pad will be too much for our discs. Remember, Porsche uses 32mm, while ours are 28mm. The smaller Carerra 2 caliper is just right in terms of pad size vs. breaking vs. disc cooling and longevity.
Good question on the master cylinder - I follow the logic that E46M3 and E46M3 CSLs get the AP Racing front and rear upgrade without doing anything to the master cylinder. Given that the Porsche upgrade is similar and if anything smaller than the AP in terms of caliper pistons volume, we should be ok. Of course, I will not know until I am hurtling towards the armco frantically trying to smash the brake pedal into the carpet
Ha ha - best do some testing on a quiet piece of road to see what pedal feel is like. I had some horrors like changing rear drums to disk and being able to lock the rears with a feather on the pedals. Also had residual pressure valves in lines that meant they never loosened off when you lifted. Ended up with bias valves and all sorts of fun.
AP will almost certainly tune their kit to the Zed master cylinder. In your case if the piston area of the Porsche replacements is the same as AP or OEM you'll be pretty much good to go
a11y said:Beedub said:
I get the impression Beedub is getting a bit excited about this
lol!!! i am!! more importantly this offers us a brake upgrade that wont cost the earth and is effective, even thought i have driven a stock setup with uprated lines, pads, discs n fluid and the can honestly say that was a fab setup imo, but this pushes the envelope further without costing the earth, this type of mod is imo perfect for the z4m, i for one cant wait to see it in person, the only thing i dont like is having to space my alloys as i hate the use of spacers on heavily tracked cars.
OP keep up the good work, i will most likely be attending sunday to see this setup and we can talk costings.
Cheburator
Member
cj10jeeper said:Ha ha - best do some testing on a quiet piece of road to see what pedal feel is like. I had some horrors like changing rear drums to disk and being able to lock the rears with a feather on the pedals. Also had residual pressure valves in lines that meant they never loosened off when you lifted. Ended up with bias valves and all sorts of fun.
AP will almost certainly tune their kit to the Zed master cylinder. In your case if the piston area of the Porsche replacements is the same as AP or OEM you'll be pretty much good to go
The kit feels great on my brother's Z3M Coupe and on my friend's CSL... Pedal feel is unchanged at all, but stopping power has been massively improved... Thus I am making a good educated guess that I will be OK with pedal feel and effort required.
Cheburator
Member
Beedub said:
Fronts are going on tomorrow hopefully, thus I will post pics when the job is done
A
Anonymous
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Cheburator said:
I will not become rich overnight with this kit, but I would be happy if I can offset some of the costs of my brake upgrade.
Hello sorry about this
I presume you will take out 'Product Liability Insurance' etc, if not be prepared to sell your car and house to meet any litigation costs if any brackets fail which result in the car crashing and maiming someone.
Afraid you are entering a costly minefield.
Believe me I am only trying to help you
Kryton is correct in that from a legal perspective even if the brackets are sold for use "at your own risk" you cannot waive liability for personal injury or death caused by your negligence under English law...whether such a link could be proven is another matter. Probably worth supplying through a company to avoid the personal liability element if this is a concern. Anyways where were we? Those Porsche brakes would look superb on any ZM!
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Anonymous
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tjlazer said:
If the design of the bracket's is the OP's it would still be a minefield, in anycase I would not supply anyone just to be safe.
And yes the Porsche brakes do look good, will be glad when they are on my next car.
Cheburator
Member
Kryton said:
You do raise valid points and I agree with all of them. I do wonder how it works in practice. Friend of mine rolled a Clio race car on a track day because the brand new rear wheel bearing seized solid in the middle of a 110mph right hander. The car is a write off, but by the sounds of it, he has no real comeback against the bearing manufacturer since proving that there was a fault in the manufacturing process is strenious at best...
I wonder whether many suppliers of motorsport parts are hiding behind lack of product liability cover by saying that motorsport is dangerous blah-blah and that their product is only for motorsport use? It is a very gray area, isn't it?
Btw, the designer of the brackets is not me, but a famous supplier of kits. However, the thinking behind them fitting our car with zero mods is most certainly mine. I only went down the route after said supplier refused to supply separate brackets and offered me a kit, which is actually inferior to what I have ended up with.
Why not use GT3 callipers ? It seems daft using callipers that were designed for a lighter and less powerful car ??
Not sure what size discs the 4 piston callipers use but even 996 turbo discs were only 330mm, so I would`ve thought the clamping area is quite small on those.
I don`t understand why people say the braking is much stronger with bigger brakes, it can`t be. Brake force can only be as high as the friction between your tyre and road and the OEM set up is more than capable of locking the wheels, sure you`ll get some fade with the OEM pads and a soft pedal eventually with OEM fluid but I`ve done SPA, Croft, `Ring, Oulton on completely standard kit with no problems at all.
Looks on the other hand is another matter. 8)
Not sure what size discs the 4 piston callipers use but even 996 turbo discs were only 330mm, so I would`ve thought the clamping area is quite small on those.
I don`t understand why people say the braking is much stronger with bigger brakes, it can`t be. Brake force can only be as high as the friction between your tyre and road and the OEM set up is more than capable of locking the wheels, sure you`ll get some fade with the OEM pads and a soft pedal eventually with OEM fluid but I`ve done SPA, Croft, `Ring, Oulton on completely standard kit with no problems at all.
Looks on the other hand is another matter. 8)
Cheburator
Member
mikem7709 said:
you need to read my posts more carefully. A GT3 sized pad is too much for our disc and will kill it with too much heat. Neither the Cayman S or 996 is lighter than our cars, thus even the small kit is adequate. As I said before - if it is good enough for some of the smaller teams with E46 M3s in the VLN, then it is good enough for me. The clamping area on the 996 caliper is still a lot bigger than the BMW one. Moreover, BMW are using leverage via bigger diameter discs, Porsche used friction via bigger pad area on the 996TT. Ultimately the BMW disc is the better solution as it is lighter and provides the same stopping power.
As with regards to the Ring or Spa - both are fast, flowing circuits which are not demanding on brakes. So are Croft and Oulton. Try Anglesey, Cadwell or Brands and let me know what happened? It also depends on how fast were you going...
