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& those scratches will rust up ricely too, that needs sorting.
Nothing wrong with an aftermarket screen per-se although a genuine one is preferable, it's not like BMW ever actually made them themselves anyway, but I'd have said the best people to fit were 'proper' windsceen fitters, I'm surpised Dick Lovett technicians actually attempted this themselves rather than getting Autoglass (etc) in.
What is important is the surround should be genuine, at least you'd hope they'd have got that bit right, or maybe not.
Nothing wrong with an aftermarket screen per-se although a genuine one is preferable, it's not like BMW ever actually made them themselves anyway, but I'd have said the best people to fit were 'proper' windsceen fitters, I'm surpised Dick Lovett technicians actually attempted this themselves rather than getting Autoglass (etc) in.
What is important is the surround should be genuine, at least you'd hope they'd have got that bit right, or maybe not.
Looks a hell of a mess. Trouble is going to a main agent for a part they probably never fit. I'd much rather have a proper windscreen company do it and on my drive where I can see everything like a hawk...
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi, I had an OE screen fitted recently by Autoglass.
I watched the fitter and helped him where I could:
He tried with reasonable care to remove the scuttle panel which runs the width of the car but broke one of the pieces where the clips attach on the corner of the panel. He also broke a couple of the scuttle panel plastic rivet with screw insert type clips which hold the scuttle panel on the bulkhead side of the engine bay. There was nothing that could be done about this as the plastic clips and scuttle are nasty USA brittle plastic. He took enough care trying to get them off so I could not complain, it is just cack design and quality of plastic. He glued the corner of the scuttle and I got a couple of new rivet clips.
In terms of breaking the adhesive bond around my factory screen, he used a special tool where he basically ran thin metal wire around the outside of the screen, around the adhesive bead. He then poked one end of the wire through the adhesive bead at the bottom of the screen and attached it onto a machine he mounted on the screen inside the car. The machine had suckers and stuck onto the inside of the windscreen. He then wound a handle on the machine and it wound the wire onto a reel, which pulled the wire tight around the screen bead so the wire cut through the adhesive bead all round the screen. The idea of this machine is that it does not cause any damage to the car or metalwork around the windscreen like you now have!!
I talked to him quite a lot and he explained that Autoglass fitters are ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN to try and remove the screen and break the adhesive bead by ANY OTHER METHOD due to damage to customer vehicles and complaints. I remember he said they had taken all other tools they used years ago such to break the bead such as knives and cutting tools off of them to stop anyone using anything other than the machine.
I am sorry to hear of your troubles. IMO it is totally unacceptable for BMW to hand the car back with bits of scuttle busted and clips missing / busted. They should either rectified it so you would not have known or discussed it with you and arranged to rectify it at a later date. The damage to the metalwork, I can only assume they did not really know what they are doing and were amateur at screen changes. It looks indeed like they have used a stanley blade or something similar, which is not clever at all!! Why didn't they just source the screen and then outsource the fitting to a windscreen fitter? I can only assume the workshop manager got greedy and assigned the job to a workshop technician.
I watched the fitter and helped him where I could:
He tried with reasonable care to remove the scuttle panel which runs the width of the car but broke one of the pieces where the clips attach on the corner of the panel. He also broke a couple of the scuttle panel plastic rivet with screw insert type clips which hold the scuttle panel on the bulkhead side of the engine bay. There was nothing that could be done about this as the plastic clips and scuttle are nasty USA brittle plastic. He took enough care trying to get them off so I could not complain, it is just cack design and quality of plastic. He glued the corner of the scuttle and I got a couple of new rivet clips.
In terms of breaking the adhesive bond around my factory screen, he used a special tool where he basically ran thin metal wire around the outside of the screen, around the adhesive bead. He then poked one end of the wire through the adhesive bead at the bottom of the screen and attached it onto a machine he mounted on the screen inside the car. The machine had suckers and stuck onto the inside of the windscreen. He then wound a handle on the machine and it wound the wire onto a reel, which pulled the wire tight around the screen bead so the wire cut through the adhesive bead all round the screen. The idea of this machine is that it does not cause any damage to the car or metalwork around the windscreen like you now have!!
I talked to him quite a lot and he explained that Autoglass fitters are ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN to try and remove the screen and break the adhesive bead by ANY OTHER METHOD due to damage to customer vehicles and complaints. I remember he said they had taken all other tools they used years ago such to break the bead such as knives and cutting tools off of them to stop anyone using anything other than the machine.
I am sorry to hear of your troubles. IMO it is totally unacceptable for BMW to hand the car back with bits of scuttle busted and clips missing / busted. They should either rectified it so you would not have known or discussed it with you and arranged to rectify it at a later date. The damage to the metalwork, I can only assume they did not really know what they are doing and were amateur at screen changes. It looks indeed like they have used a stanley blade or something similar, which is not clever at all!! Why didn't they just source the screen and then outsource the fitting to a windscreen fitter? I can only assume the workshop manager got greedy and assigned the job to a workshop technician.
What a terrible job, made even worse because it has been done under the banner of BMW. My theory on this is that they had it done by one of their in-house 'trained' techs who are usually a couple of guys who have had an intensive session at Thatcham where they have learned to use a reciprocating cutting tool (which, going by the images appears to be true in this case) and then get given a stamp on their CPD card based on some very, very basic training.
IMHO, it's subjective in that you might get someone who totally understands the process and is 'gifted' with a logical thought processor. Conversely - and more likely - is that you'll get one guy who rarely gets to practice these newly acquired skills on a car, but when he does, he cannot perfect it for lack of experience. There are many, many examples of these scenarios catching the BMW dealers out simply because the more involved jobs are just too much for them to cope with. The very little 'real' experience they acquire will be a mixture of easy jobs, or ones they've simply managed to get away with.
Clips break. They'll break if you're not careful, or they'll break if you don't 'pop' them in sequence. As much as the unexpected can happen, this can mostly be avoided by common sense, and/or experience. IOW, common sense suggests that you'll only make that mistake once??
Agree with the reasons he gave however, it doesn't mean to say that the method/technique he demonstrated is the right way, or that it (or any other way) is wrong. What you're seeing is a system being developed to minimise damage, and to reduce the risk of injury. The skill and expertise lies with the fitter/technician, always. But when you have an organisation where the majority of your staff are not experienced, or are a danger to themselves, etc, you'll come up with a system that is idiot proof. The system you have described is just that - anyone can use it. The sellers of such equipment will often show a promotional video of their IT guy using it to illustrate this. The average windscreen fitter is not skilled. The chances of him becoming experienced is inhibited by this blinkered view of how to do a job because much of the human element has been removed or replaced. The best example of this is the repair system used by the aforementioned. It does not allow human intervention insofar as if a break needs to be manipulated in order to fill the crack, you simply cannot by way of its design (you can't get in there) or by the way it works - it literally is a one, two and three step process; part of its name is '123'.
What is also "absolutely forbidden" is to get the customer to help in any way and that he did suggests that he was possibly nervous, inexperienced or out of his depth. If his bosses found out about your participation, he would be having his head handed back to him.
Overall, I'd say he's done a good job of convincing you that the way he has gone about his job is the best - or better - way, but I think you should not base your opinion of your experience on this entirely. He's done well and projected an image of what his employer wants him to. I'm not saying he's done anything wrong, but he's merely done a good job of convincing you that you've had a decent job done.
IMHO, it's subjective in that you might get someone who totally understands the process and is 'gifted' with a logical thought processor. Conversely - and more likely - is that you'll get one guy who rarely gets to practice these newly acquired skills on a car, but when he does, he cannot perfect it for lack of experience. There are many, many examples of these scenarios catching the BMW dealers out simply because the more involved jobs are just too much for them to cope with. The very little 'real' experience they acquire will be a mixture of easy jobs, or ones they've simply managed to get away with.
sniffer said:
Clips break. They'll break if you're not careful, or they'll break if you don't 'pop' them in sequence. As much as the unexpected can happen, this can mostly be avoided by common sense, and/or experience. IOW, common sense suggests that you'll only make that mistake once??
sniffer said:
Agree with the reasons he gave however, it doesn't mean to say that the method/technique he demonstrated is the right way, or that it (or any other way) is wrong. What you're seeing is a system being developed to minimise damage, and to reduce the risk of injury. The skill and expertise lies with the fitter/technician, always. But when you have an organisation where the majority of your staff are not experienced, or are a danger to themselves, etc, you'll come up with a system that is idiot proof. The system you have described is just that - anyone can use it. The sellers of such equipment will often show a promotional video of their IT guy using it to illustrate this. The average windscreen fitter is not skilled. The chances of him becoming experienced is inhibited by this blinkered view of how to do a job because much of the human element has been removed or replaced. The best example of this is the repair system used by the aforementioned. It does not allow human intervention insofar as if a break needs to be manipulated in order to fill the crack, you simply cannot by way of its design (you can't get in there) or by the way it works - it literally is a one, two and three step process; part of its name is '123'.
sniffer said:
What is also "absolutely forbidden" is to get the customer to help in any way and that he did suggests that he was possibly nervous, inexperienced or out of his depth. If his bosses found out about your participation, he would be having his head handed back to him.
Overall, I'd say he's done a good job of convincing you that the way he has gone about his job is the best - or better - way, but I think you should not base your opinion of your experience on this entirely. He's done well and projected an image of what his employer wants him to. I'm not saying he's done anything wrong, but he's merely done a good job of convincing you that you've had a decent job done.
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Anonymous
Guest
Thanks Glassman, very interesting.
I was happy with the outcome in the end. Having watched the fitter intently and getting slightly involved with the job, the job is nowhere near as easy as I thought and there is a fair amount of skill and experience involved.
I don't think the fitter was nervous to be honest, I think he allowed me to get involved because we were talking and it saved him having to set up a contraption on my window which I was not overly keen on because it looked like it would put a fair amount of load on the window channels and regulators.
I don't think there was much he could do about the clips to be honest. He tried with a lot of care but they are a one time use only type product. The plastic clips on the Z4 are not to BMW's usual standard because they are sourced in the USA local to the assembly plant. The plastic is brittler than the European manufactured clips which are used within the European assembly plants.
I was happy with the outcome in the end. Having watched the fitter intently and getting slightly involved with the job, the job is nowhere near as easy as I thought and there is a fair amount of skill and experience involved.
I don't think the fitter was nervous to be honest, I think he allowed me to get involved because we were talking and it saved him having to set up a contraption on my window which I was not overly keen on because it looked like it would put a fair amount of load on the window channels and regulators.
I don't think there was much he could do about the clips to be honest. He tried with a lot of care but they are a one time use only type product. The plastic clips on the Z4 are not to BMW's usual standard because they are sourced in the USA local to the assembly plant. The plastic is brittler than the European manufactured clips which are used within the European assembly plants.
Hi, still waiting for the zed and enjoying the forum, for what it's worth my thoughts are,The windscreen was removed with a long bladed knife which has scratched the paint. The proper way to remove the windscreen is to use cheese wire that you pull through the adhesive being careful not to cut through interior trim/wiring. The job is skilled and takes a fair while to master,removing the screen without damaging the vehicle,removing all the old adhesive,and then reapplying a uniform bead that touches the screen and leaves no gaps that result in leaks or wind noise. As for the scuttle panel new clips should be used,you would expect that for £800. If this was my car I'd tell bmw that your taking the car to a body shop so that the windscreen can be removed and any scratches like the ones in the picture and others underneath the windscreen you can't see but will still rust can be painted/treated.Then I would arrange for it to be taken to an Autoglass depot on a trailer if needs be and I would ask the manager to instruct his best fitter to re install it. My advice to anyone having a windscreen replaced is this, use Autoglass, have the replacement done in the workshop ask for the best technician. Do not ha :? :? :? ve your windscreen replaced outside because if it rains half way through or if it's just a damp day can you trust that the glue will bond 100% you won't know unless your unlucky enough to be involved in a crash and your windscreen flys down the road? Remember this is a structural part of the car when bmw fit them it is not in their car park. I have seen cars with windscreens that you could push out with your hands and rotten apertures underneath! Finally give bmw the bill should be about the £800 they charged you!! :?
I would get the screen removed. You need to see the full extent of the damage and also you want it repaired correctly. Having the screen in place will limit the quality of the repair.
As long as you get a copy of the invoice detailing what they did then if you have any issues BMW will have to sort anyway I would have thought. As you said before though if the scuttle panel had been fitted correctly you would never have known. I'm sure that a repair now will prevent any issues later on but get photos or see the repair before they refit the screen.
As long as you get a copy of the invoice detailing what they did then if you have any issues BMW will have to sort anyway I would have thought. As you said before though if the scuttle panel had been fitted correctly you would never have known. I'm sure that a repair now will prevent any issues later on but get photos or see the repair before they refit the screen.