4m to 996 911.. good performer, or laid back cruiser?

[Jaw]

hey guys,

I *need* to get back on the track! I've been putting off slinging the parts I've bought for the M on for some time now (Head vs heart decision) and I've decided against itdespite falling in love with it every time I Go for a spin.. Same reason I've avoided putting it on the track. Long and short their rarity here means that once I mod I'll be keeping it permenantly if I Don't want to loose more than usual if it comes to selling.. which isn't an issue per say as its wwhat you'd expect, but for the money I can get either one of two of my 'dream' cars and have change for the savings..

So I was wondering if anyone had gone either from or to a 911? Had a breif blat in one today, an 02 C2, but it seemed a bit sedate - didn't 'wow' me.. (I drove a cayman right before the Z and left with the keys to the Z) so I would be keen to see who's had time to live with one a bit longer term?

the budget won't stretch to a turbo but will stretch to either a c2 modded with a 5-600 bhp turbo engine (as in the complete lump from a turbo, rather than a turbo'd c2 which have reliability issues, especially on the track I'm informed..), or a turbo-charged c2 running about 410 bhp (but then you have the wet sump issues amongst other things to contend with)

But being a search threw up that a few people have had experiences with them in some capacity, or had photos etc, figured it might be a good place to ask.

cheers

 

[tertius]

Are you quite sure that your budget will stretch to putting a 996 turbo engine (the most expensive single part of a Mezger engined 911) in a C2 but not a turbo car?

Surely it would be far cheaper to buy a Turbo in the first place.

Plus of course the turbo comes with better brakes, suspension, etc. as standard.

For reference I have driven a 996 turbo on track (wallowy and under-steery, but very fast) and owned a 993 Carrera for five years.

With a bit of work a stripped out 996 Carrera would make a good track car, in my view, though I would always be nervous of the fragility of the M96 engine.

I think putting a turbo engine into a tock 996 would be a right nightmare - apart from the cost of getting an engine, there is the cooling, the additional oil rads, the brakes, not to mention the insurance!

 

[Jaw]

Are you quite sure that your budget will stretch to putting a 996 turbo engine (the most expensive single part of a Mezger engined 911) in a C2 but not a turbo car?

Surely it would be far cheaper to buy a Turbo in the first place.

Plus of course the turbo comes with better brakes, suspension, etc. as standard.

For reference I have driven a 996 turbo on track (wallowy and under-steery, but very fast) and owned a 993 Carrera for five years.

With a bit of work a stripped out 996 Carrera would make a good track car, in my view, though I would always be nervous of the fragility of the M96 engine.

I think putting a turbo engine into a tock 996 would be a right nightmare - apart from the cost of getting an engine, there is the cooling, the additional oil rads, the brakes, not to mention the insurance!

Cheers for that, suprised to hear it being wallowy (not that I've had a chance to try one out, but from general reviews and talk from a guy who tracks theirs - but they're always gonna be a bit biased!)

it's the insane australian car market unfortunately - a tubby is around $100k minimum, whereas as c2's can be got for around $30k, and engine bought and installed for up to $20k. Throw another $3k at some good suspension and up to $10k at brakes and it's potentially a $40k saving with the added bonus of putting decent suspension and brakes on that I might change in the turbo anyway and the bonus of being able to build it up the way I want. Plus theres the benefit of it being an ongoing project rather than bankrupting myself all at once :lol:

Turbo/supercharging the M96 is cheaper still (read $10k on top of the car price) but like you say, the fragility comes into play and a supercharger means that minor maintenance becomes a huge de-construction or even engine out job.

Even if I didn't get as far as installing a turbo lump from the off, I'd be stuck driving the C2 at any rate in standard from too. Different again I suppose but did you find the 993 more engaging than the tubby?

 

[tomscott]

The 996 isn't a better car than the M I would say go 997 gen 1 or 2.

The 996 is quite antiquated now compared to the 997s and the M

In the UK a 996 turbo can be had from £20k. The standard 996 has a lot of issues and turbo charging will make these issues much more prominent especially the block, it has a weakness where it cracks with standard BHP. The turbo engine is a completely different motor and has non of the issues the standard 996 motors do, so would start there instead.

 

[T66RGA]

Hi Jaw, I went the other way around... had a 996 C2 then traded it for my Z4MC a month or so back. They do have a very different character. If your pooling around under 3000 or 4000rpm the 996 can feel quite ordinary but get above that and the game changes. I'd say there is little discernible difference in the performance numbers but I think if could jump from one the other the Z would probably feel quicker as you get the angrier tone and more urgency from lower revs.
I'm still practising but at the moment I would say that A to B I could still drive the Porsche quicker than I can the Z. I'm very happy with the Z but would certainly have a 911 again at some point in the future but probably not until I could a good 997. As mentioned above these feel much "newer" than the 996

 

[tertius]

Are you quite sure that your budget will stretch to putting a 996 turbo engine (the most expensive single part of a Mezger engined 911) in a C2 but not a turbo car?

Surely it would be far cheaper to buy a Turbo in the first place.

Plus of course the turbo comes with better brakes, suspension, etc. as standard.

For reference I have driven a 996 turbo on track (wallowy and under-steery, but very fast) and owned a 993 Carrera for five years.

With a bit of work a stripped out 996 Carrera would make a good track car, in my view, though I would always be nervous of the fragility of the M96 engine.

I think putting a turbo engine into a tock 996 would be a right nightmare - apart from the cost of getting an engine, there is the cooling, the additional oil rads, the brakes, not to mention the insurance!

Cheers for that, suprised to hear it being wallowy (not that I've had a chance to try one out, but from general reviews and talk from a guy who tracks theirs - but they're always gonna be a bit biased!)

it's the insane australian car market unfortunately - a tubby is around $100k minimum, whereas as c2's can be got for around $30k, and engine bought and installed for up to $20k. Throw another $3k at some good suspension and up to $10k at brakes and it's potentially a $40k saving with the added bonus of putting decent suspension and brakes on that I might change in the turbo anyway and the bonus of being able to build it up the way I want. Plus theres the benefit of it being an ongoing project rather than bankrupting myself all at once :lol:

Turbo/supercharging the M96 is cheaper still (read $10k on top of the car price) but like you say, the fragility comes into play and a supercharger means that minor maintenance becomes a huge de-construction or even engine out job.

Even if I didn't get as far as installing a turbo lump from the off, I'd be stuck driving the C2 at any rate in standard from too. Different again I suppose but did you find the 993 more engaging than the tubby?

OK well I understand the logic, though I am still astonished that a genuine turbo engine can be sourced and fitted for that sort of money. I would have thought the component prices would follow the underlying vehie prices.

A good turbo engine in the UK would be *a lot* of cash.

Yes, my 993 was far more engaging than the 996, but then it was far from standard. Plus of course a 993 Carrera has a Mezger engine unlike a 996 Carrera.

Re. those advising a 997 over a 996, I would caution that 997.1 is not really much different (except in looks) than a 996.2. The engine has all the same potential issues, IMS failures, RMS issues, bore scoring, etc..

 

[tomscott]

The engine in the 997 has similar problems but it is a much better car in almost every way over a 996.

 

[T66RGA]

Agreed... the chocolate engines didn't go away until the 997.2 which was around '07. Easy it spot them as they went to LED rear lights at the same time.

 

[Jaw]

The 996 isn't a better car than the M I would say go 997 gen 1 or 2.

The 996 is quite antiquated now compared to the 997s and the M

In the UK a 996 turbo can be had from £20k. The standard 996 has a lot of issues and turbo charging will make these issues much more prominent especially the block, it has a weakness where it cracks with standard BHP. The turbo engine is a completely different motor and has non of the issues the standard 996 motors do, so would start there instead.

Yeah I think you're right, I'm all but warned off the turbo-charging route on a carrera, so think in the long run it will be much better to start with a turbo lump. I guess it's hard to really compare the turbo's to the z4m's because of the difference in performance.. I think it's either an (albeit heavily) modified 996 or stay with the M due to price. On the plus side this means I can go for a dog of a 996 if the engine is going to be scrapped and save a fair bit there. if you look for a 997 turbo here you're looking at closer to $200k

Hi Jaw, I went the other way around... had a 996 C2 then traded it for my Z4MC a month or so back. They do have a very different character. If your pooling around under 3000 or 4000rpm the 996 can feel quite ordinary but get above that and the game changes. I'd say there is little discernible difference in the performance numbers but I think if could jump from one the other the Z would probably feel quicker as you get the angrier tone and more urgency from lower revs.
I'm still practising but at the moment I would say that A to B I could still drive the Porsche quicker than I can the Z. I'm very happy with the Z but would certainly have a 911 again at some point in the future but probably not until I could a good 997. As mentioned above these feel much "newer" than the 996

Cheers for that mate, I think that summed up the Cayman I tried a while back in a way, a quick blat didn't sell it to me but at higher speeds it started to make sense.. Did you find the handling to be more 'precise' in the porsche? When you say it felt more dated than the M, do you mean just in terms of the interior?

Are you quite sure that your budget will stretch to putting a 996 turbo engine (the most expensive single part of a Mezger engined 911) in a C2 but not a turbo car?

Surely it would be far cheaper to buy a Turbo in the first place.

Plus of course the turbo comes with better brakes, suspension, etc. as standard.

For reference I have driven a 996 turbo on track (wallowy and under-steery, but very fast) and owned a 993 Carrera for five years.

With a bit of work a stripped out 996 Carrera would make a good track car, in my view, though I would always be nervous of the fragility of the M96 engine.

I think putting a turbo engine into a tock 996 would be a right nightmare - apart from the cost of getting an engine, there is the cooling, the additional oil rads, the brakes, not to mention the insurance!

Cheers for that, suprised to hear it being wallowy (not that I've had a chance to try one out, but from general reviews and talk from a guy who tracks theirs - but they're always gonna be a bit biased!)

it's the insane australian car market unfortunately - a tubby is around $100k minimum, whereas as c2's can be got for around $30k, and engine bought and installed for up to $20k. Throw another $3k at some good suspension and up to $10k at brakes and it's potentially a $40k saving with the added bonus of putting decent suspension and brakes on that I might change in the turbo anyway and the bonus of being able to build it up the way I want. Plus theres the benefit of it being an ongoing project rather than bankrupting myself all at once :lol:

Turbo/supercharging the M96 is cheaper still (read $10k on top of the car price) but like you say, the fragility comes into play and a supercharger means that minor maintenance becomes a huge de-construction or even engine out job.

Even if I didn't get as far as installing a turbo lump from the off, I'd be stuck driving the C2 at any rate in standard from too. Different again I suppose but did you find the 993 more engaging than the tubby?

OK well I understand the logic, though I am still astonished that a genuine turbo engine can be sourced and fitted for that sort of money. I would have thought the component prices would follow the underlying vehie prices.

A good turbo engine in the UK would be *a lot* of cash.

Yes, my 993 was far more engaging than the 996, but then it was far from standard. Plus of course a 993 Carrera has a Mezger engine unlike a 996 Carrera.

Re. those advising a 997 over a 996, I would caution that 997.1 is not really much different (except in looks) than a 996.2. The engine has all the same potential issues, IMS failures, RMS issues, bore scoring, etc..

I had to check on reading that, but yes it appears that a turbo engine can be got form $9k up to around $19k with 6 speed tranny - I suppose there tends to be a disconnect from the vehicle prices generally but it appears that in the states the 996 tubby goes for $40-50k so that's a 5th up to a half of the price I suppose..

edit: just had a search and in the UK they're going for as little as 6.5k-8k so about the same Expensive, but like I say when a turbo costs $100k here, we're still talking almost a 50% saving

So just to check, when we're talking IMS RMS and bore issues, we're talking non-turbo only?

I did toy with the idea of a 993 (again, they hold their value here), they were all air-cooled am I right in thinking? have read a lot about them being more reliable.

 

[tertius]

I had to check on reading that, but yes it appears that a turbo engine can be got form $9k up to around $19k with 6 speed tranny - I suppose there tends to be a disconnect from the vehicle prices generally but it appears that in the states the 996 tubby goes for $40-50k so that's a 5th up to a half of the price I suppose..

edit: just had a search and in the UK they're going for as little as 6.5k-8k so about the same Expensive, but like I say when a turbo costs $100k here, we're still talking almost a 50% saving

So just to check, when we're talking IMS RMS and bore issues, we're talking non-turbo only?

I did toy with the idea of a 993 (again, they hold their value here), they were all air-cooled am I right in thinking? have read a lot about them being more reliable.

Well, I suspect a lot will turn on your definition of "good" ... Not sure how confident I would be in the cheapest available engines. I think getting an engine that someone reliable will stand behind will cost a lot more.

Re. The engine types, the engine in the turbo (and the GT3 and all 993s and 964s) is based on the so-called Mezger block; whereas the 996 Carrera/C4/C4S engines are all a newer design, the M96. The IMS and bore scoring and cracked liner problems are not an issue on Mezger engines.

Yes 993s are all air-cooled and incredibly strong cars.

 

[finlay]

Have owned a 993 and found it to be a nice car and while not hugely fast by modern day standards it was still an experience to drive. They do however rust and in my experience are not hugely reliable (yes mine was a really clean and properly serviced example). Anyway i sold it and moved over to a 996 turbo over 4 years ago. Fantastic car at all levels, extremely reliable, quick and makes a great noise with the sports exhaust. Engine etc feels unburstable. Only real issue is the radiators are prone to leakage. I get bored with cars very quickly, the fact i still have my Turbo after nearly 5 years and no desire to sell it says it all really.

Also, i have driven my mates 993 turbo back to back with my own car - the 996 is much better at rapidly covering ground plus its a nicer car to drive. (Despite what all the "experts" will tell you). The 993 does look fab though!

 

[Adam D]

Compared to the GT3 or turbo I found the 996 3.6 to be a little lacking in the trouser department... If only they made a turbo which had the noise and response of the gt3... Mmm 997.2 gt3 4.0


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[Jaw]

Cheers for the feedback so far guys, am going to view a 996 carrera which is going remarkably cheap ( talking half what I'd expect them to go for so would be well worth taking for an engine swap - and it's cheap enough that I'll keep the Z too and just do it over a longer timeframe - bonus!), a 993 and a GT3 that's for sale at a reasonable price so will see how I fancy them against the M.. The main worry I had was that next to the Z the 911 of the age I'm looking at have been called GT cars rather than sports cars but becoming clear it depends on the flavour..

Compared to the GT3 or turbo I found the 996 3.6 to be a little lacking in the trouser department... If only they made a turbo which had the noise and response of the gt3... Mmm 997.2 gt3 4.0

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And the plot thinkens :lol: a 997 gt3 here is simply too much - we're talking two ferrari 360's worth (which is one of the other options) Although don't the turbo and GT3 share the same engine? Or was it that they share the same engine but the GT3 is N/A?ww

Have owned a 993 and found it to be a nice car and while not hugely fast by modern day standards it was still an experience to drive. They do however rust and in my experience are not hugely reliable (yes mine was a really clean and properly serviced example). Anyway i sold it and moved over to a 996 turbo over 4 years ago. Fantastic car at all levels, extremely reliable, quick and makes a great noise with the sports exhaust. Engine etc feels unburstable. Only real issue is the radiators are prone to leakage. I get bored with cars very quickly, the fact i still have my Turbo after nearly 5 years and no desire to sell it says it all really.

Also, i have driven my mates 993 turbo back to back with my own car - the 996 is much better at rapidly covering ground plus its a nicer car to drive. (Despite what all the "experts" will tell you). The 993 does look fab though!

Cheers for that, Although I do like the idea of a mint 993, on having a look it seems that a genuine turbo isn't too easy to come across out here, plus like you say I'm not I'd get all that comfortable living with the age in terms of how it drives, how the interior is an the general mod cons of a modern car coming from the Z..

Good to hear that your turbo's lasted you - thats the problem with me, I generally change cars every 6 months max so I want to find something that retains as much of the things I've loved about the Z as possible, but also treads on the supercar boundary.

Well, I suspect a lot will turn on your definition of "good" ... Not sure how confident I would be in the cheapest available engines. I think getting an engine that someone reliable will stand behind will cost a lot more.

Re. The engine types, the engine in the turbo (and the GT3 and all 993s and 964s) is based on the so-called Mezger block; whereas the 996 Carrera/C4/C4S engines are all a newer design, the M96. The IMS and bore scoring and cracked liner problems are not an issue on Mezger engines.

Yes 993s are all air-cooled and incredibly strong cars.

Thanks for that, good info! Have all but written off the idea of fettling a carrera, if it's not the IMS it's liners or fuel starvation.. Re the quality of engine deffo a valid point and I'll try to stab somewhere in the middle ideally. If I can reasonably verify the mileage in a low miler it'd be a good punt, in the UK with the MOT records it's not too difficult but I can also put money saved on purchasing a cheap engine into reconditioning it when it arrives (which I'd have better peace of mind in doing as you know where you stand then). I guess I'll have to sus what work I'd want to do to it first.. the porsche racing specialists I've been talking to suggest that 700bhp is acheivable from the turbo with bolt on mods more or less; so if that's the route I want to avoid having to rebuild the thing when it arrives.

 

[finlay]

Compared to the GT3 or turbo I found the 996 3.6 to be a little lacking in the trouser department... If only they made a turbo which had the noise and response of the gt3... Mmm 997.2 gt3 4.0


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For noise in a turbo just change the exhaust to a sports one, it also allows the turbos to spool up a bit quicker.

Have driven a fair few miles in a good friends 997GT3 RS and sure the response is a little better BUT and its a big but for me, you have to rev it to get the power and i personally prefer to have the power and torque low down, hence the reason that if i had the readies it would be a GT2 I would buy