£4K hike?
- Thread starter derin100
- Start date
Im glad/sad that your going to the newer BMW's Derin..
Some of your previous E34's are marvellous.
Im very similar to you in the fact that newer BMW's dont hold much interest to me. They have lost the quality and exclusivity that they once had...
Luckily the Z4 is just new enough but also old enough to still appeal..
I look forward to seeing what you can do with something that is essentially a newer generation to what you are used to..
BTW... Great post about hospital,especially the pen knife wielding consultant.. :lol:
Some of your previous E34's are marvellous.
Im very similar to you in the fact that newer BMW's dont hold much interest to me. They have lost the quality and exclusivity that they once had...
Luckily the Z4 is just new enough but also old enough to still appeal..
I look forward to seeing what you can do with something that is essentially a newer generation to what you are used to..
BTW... Great post about hospital,especially the pen knife wielding consultant.. :lol:
Mad Professor
Active member
Sounds like your handy with the spanner and sponges Derin ,but then I guess that's why you're a cutter and I'm not . I have no manual dexterity or common sense when it comes to mechanical stuff although I can steer an endoscope ok I guess ,hardly difficult .You won't regret buying a Zed and actually if you drive within the law it's hard to use an M without feeling a bit guilty these days . I would say a 3,0 for road use is actually all you need ,for me it's more about the handling and Mid range torque for driveability .
Dare I say it but for the same money you can get a well sorted Boxster S ,which is also a great wee car .
I think it's a shame for junior docs nowadays because I feel they miss out on the experience that all those hours impart and when I was a senior registrar I basically ran the show while my boss was away doing other stuff .
I still really enjoy teaching the students and juniors and most of all I love doing the research ,that is when I can find the funding to do what I want . I've got five more years to go but I think I can still make a difference to clinical care with my research ,so that's what drives me .
I hope you find your ideal Zed ,be patient and you'll know when the right one comes along .
Like you I've bought some shockers along the way ,my TVRs in particular were costly and I didnt feel the love ,which is a shame as I always lusted after the marque ,and still do .
For me the zM is the closest thing to a Griff in character and cocept without the hassle and a lot cheaper to buy and run .
As for stories I recall doing a ward round for my boss Dame Turner Warwick at the Brompton as an SHO when we had all these visiting Professors , and I asked her if I could leave the boardroom to go for a leak - I was really desperate as I had a double espresso before the ward round , to which she replied ,yes that's fine but don't bother coming back . Stupid cow , not a nice piece of work at all , and what's more she shafted me after wards when I used her as my referee to get my next job on the London circuit at Queen square and Hammersmith ,which is why I ended up in Sheffield for next job . My boss in Sheffield a lovely bloke told me he couldn't belive how bad my reference was . Best thing that happened to me actually as I learned more there in a month there than in a year at the Brompton . In fact one of my old research fellows has just been appointed as a chair there which makes feel a bit old.
Dare I say it but for the same money you can get a well sorted Boxster S ,which is also a great wee car .
I think it's a shame for junior docs nowadays because I feel they miss out on the experience that all those hours impart and when I was a senior registrar I basically ran the show while my boss was away doing other stuff .
I still really enjoy teaching the students and juniors and most of all I love doing the research ,that is when I can find the funding to do what I want . I've got five more years to go but I think I can still make a difference to clinical care with my research ,so that's what drives me .
I hope you find your ideal Zed ,be patient and you'll know when the right one comes along .
Like you I've bought some shockers along the way ,my TVRs in particular were costly and I didnt feel the love ,which is a shame as I always lusted after the marque ,and still do .
For me the zM is the closest thing to a Griff in character and cocept without the hassle and a lot cheaper to buy and run .
As for stories I recall doing a ward round for my boss Dame Turner Warwick at the Brompton as an SHO when we had all these visiting Professors , and I asked her if I could leave the boardroom to go for a leak - I was really desperate as I had a double espresso before the ward round , to which she replied ,yes that's fine but don't bother coming back . Stupid cow , not a nice piece of work at all , and what's more she shafted me after wards when I used her as my referee to get my next job on the London circuit at Queen square and Hammersmith ,which is why I ended up in Sheffield for next job . My boss in Sheffield a lovely bloke told me he couldn't belive how bad my reference was . Best thing that happened to me actually as I learned more there in a month there than in a year at the Brompton . In fact one of my old research fellows has just been appointed as a chair there which makes feel a bit old.
Mad Professor
Active member
So I'm guessing Derin you must be a max fax surgeon if you were a dentist before hand .
Now there's a thing ,when I went to the dentist recently ,the receptionist said - the doctor will see you now - I thought blimey I must have had had senior moment and gone into the wrong office . What's all that about with Dentists calling themselves doctors .They are surgeons so should be called Mr nor Dr .
Now there's a thing ,when I went to the dentist recently ,the receptionist said - the doctor will see you now - I thought blimey I must have had had senior moment and gone into the wrong office . What's all that about with Dentists calling themselves doctors .They are surgeons so should be called Mr nor Dr .
derin100
Active member
Mad Professor said:
Prof,
Some great stuff in there! The bit about your next boss saying how he couldn't believe how bad that cow had given you made me laugh out loud!
I'll pm you about some more of the medical stuff as otherwise it'll bore other forum members I'm sure.
Coming back to cars....
Regarding these I completely agree with you as well. I actually owned an E46 CSL for a couple of years and whilst it was a lovely, exciting and terrific sounding car the reality was that it was just too insane and actually (if owners really owned up to it) just too fast to use, exploit or enjoy on the public road for literally more than a few seconds! And I live in one of the least congested parts of the country with lots of fast, open roads:
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/2003_M3_CSL/index.html
Add to that I know that materially, on a public road, a 'normal' E46 M3 is barely any slower. Even on a track in the hands of an ex-professional racing driver like Tiff Niddell a CSL was faster but no so much faster that a mere amateur would be able to match the difference and not so much faster as to justify the (hyped) 3 x price difference.
For exactly the reasons you've alluded to I was/am thinking in terms of a 3.0L Zed. My thoughts are that it's going to be amply fast enough to actually use the performance on a public road but at the same time much cheaper to buy and run than an M.
A Boxster S is certainly something else that I've been considering. Or even a Cayman. I know from reading that they're both supposed to be hugely capable and I do like the look of the Cayman but....
Firstly, Porsche is all completely uncharted territory for me. With 33 years of unbroken BMW ownership behind me I have, over the years, built up quite a large support network of mechanics and other knowledgeable people etc.
Secondly, I have this slightly irrational mental block about Boxsters. Even though, in my private thoughts, I do actually like the look of them, particularly of those Anniversary ones, I just remember when the Boxster very first came out and it being billed or derided as a bit of a "Girlie's" Porsche!
I know I shouldn't think that especially as it was a Boxster 3.2S that finally made me realise about 7 years ago just how totally outclassed the E30 M3 that I'd owned for 7 years had become! Now, there's another car that has become totally and utterly over-hyped. A word of advice to anyone considering being sucked into that web of hype and forking out on one of them now....they are just too flipping slow to cut it in the modern World! Even one of my BMW mechanics that I use and who specialised in working on them admits it! I was utterly humiliated one day in the E30 M3, on the A5 up here, by a Boxster S.
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/e30_m3/index.html
For these reasons, I think a 3.0L Zed is probably best for me. I accept that an M is probably going to hold its value more and I certainly would dismiss forking out for one if the right opportunity presented itself but actually this bring me on to another "rant" of mine. :lol:
This whole notion of "investment potential" being peddled by dealers is actually a fallacy at this level of the car market. Yes, hit it right and at the right time with something like classic Ferraris and one might make some decent money. The rest is like going into Bargain Booze, buying bottle of Jacob's Creek, keeping it sealed and staring at it for 10 years hoping that it's as "investment" and will materially be more valuable than when you bought it. It's all nonsense used to hype stuff!
Take my E30 M3 above. People talk about their values having "gone through the roof" and what a good "investment" they were. This is utter lies and nonsense. The only people who really benefitted from that notion were the dealers selling them at inflated prices. I sold that car about 7 years ago for £13K (with all the extras you see in the photos)....and that was considered top money then. So let's say that car would now be being sold (as they are) for double that i.e £26K. £13K extra in 7 years?! That's not even £2K/ year increase AND one hasn't taken out any of the unavoidable, annual costs of ownership yet...Insurance, tax, servicing, repairs etc etc. And you haven't even turned a wheel yet. It's utter lies! Don't believe the bull!
It's only at the high, stratospheric end of the car market that there's money to be made...and that really has little or nothing to do with the cars themselves. That's about already very rich people protecting and "moving" money around.
I'll give you one example...
A few years ago a car came up for sale with a high-end classic dealer in Germany on POA basis. It was my ultimate BMW... a 503 Cabriolet. At the time, I estimated they might want about 85K Euros for it. Before asking them I figured that if I sold all of my other cars plus took a loan that I might be able to scrape such a some together and sought clearance from my wife...which she gave me with a dubiously raised eyebrow. So, I went ahead and enquired. The response was 245K Euros! Obviously this put me firmly out of the frame.
Less than 2 years later that very same car sold for 600K Euros at auction! Now, that may be seen as a "true investment" because it had "gone up so much"! But...even that's all lies. It had gone up that much...and yes, there was true "investment value" in that car if you were the sort of person that needed to legitimise the money you'd got to pay out those sums in the first place?!
An E30 M3 or an E46 CSL or a ZM isn't "an investment"...that's bull...they're a money spinner for the dealers who might sell them on that flawed basis. And by the time folk wake up to that they've run off with the money and moved on to the next model to hype. Look at Mercedes Pagodas...there's another one. I had one...very pretty to look at...awful to drive...and not even rare! I saw one this week for sale here in the UK for over £150K LOL! (Actually it's on the website of the dealer who sold that 3.0L Zed I was interested in Edinburgh).
I'm sure a good Zed will turn up for me. As you say, I'll just take my time.
derin100
Active member
Mad Professor said:
Yes Prof, I'm a Max Fax Surgeon.
Oh God Prof...where have you been? These dentists have been calling themselves "Doctor" for years now!
It came in when all European-wide dental qualifications became recognised across the E.U.
The difference is that for example, my cousin who is a dentist in Germany (I'm half German) was required as part of his basic dental training, as all dentists in Germany are, to write a thesis equivalent to a PhD. They are therefore truly have a "Doctorate" rather than the Bachelors degree we have here.
The same with things like Engineering. In Germany an Engineer is a Dr. Ing. Here in the U.K it seems acceptable to apply the title "Engineer" (which I point out to my son who is truly studying Engineering at University) in equal measure to someone who repairs refrigeration appliances i.e "Refrigeration Engineer"?
The irony is...in "our day" the qualification was BDS i.e Bachelor of Dental Surgery. The word "Surgery" assumes you're trained in doing a bit of cutting and a bit of blood, yes? At the very least you've been trained and can take a tooth out which might yield a bit of blood, yes?
Well, a few years ago my now retired colleague was doing a clinic and in the room next door was a fully U.K trained dental SHO. He suddenly called for the departmental camera and my ex-colleague enquired as to why he wanted the camera? To which the SHO replied that he wanted to take a photograph of the first tooth he'd even taken out!
derin100
Active member
Bing said:I never knew whether to call my dentist Doctor or not... Now I know
Though I thought it is consultants who are 'Mr', and not all surgeons are consultants - or should I just shut up ?
This is a brief way it works and has arisen... and it is slightly confusing to outsiders....even to members of the medical profession outside of the World of British or ex-British influence. I'll try to explain...
Basically, centuries ago, Doctors were only clever people like "Mad Professor" and they were called "Physicians". They treated people's aliments by "clever" means and had their own exclusive professional bodies or "Colleges" and assumed or were given the title "Doctor".
However, this is very different to the title "Doctor" that someone gets if they have a PhD....which could be in any subject at all.
Now, centuries ago, if you had an aliment that could actually only be addressed by having it CUT OUT you'd see somone quite different...who coincidentally also happened to be your Barber! These people eventually became known as "Barber-Surgeons". Initially, these people were completely unregulated but obviously that situation couldn't continue and so their own professional bodies had to be adopted (but still looked down upon by the Physicians i.e the Doctors) and "Colleges of Surgeons" came into being. Later "Royal Colleges". The people who belonged to these Colleges weren't Physicians and so couldn't be called "Doctor" and so they remained "Mister".
Following me so far?
Now, jumping forward to the modern day, when a medical student qualifies in this country as a "Doctor" they are essentially qualifying in 2 Degrees. They get a Bachelor of Medicine (i.e Physician) and a Bachelor of Surgery (i.e a Surgeon). But, they are given the title "Doctor"....but it actually only a courtesy title because the haven't got a PhD. You could have a PhD in Ancient Greek Art and that would actually be a true Doctorate...what we come out of Med School with isn't a true Doctorate.
Now, this is where it gets more difficult to follow...much more now I come to think of it!
Basically, once we've all got our primary medical qualification we then go off and specialise in different things....Surgeons, GPs , Physicians, Obs and Gynae, Psychiatrists....you name it!
Now, the important thing (with one exception) is that ALL non-surgeons remain within their Colleges and remain true to the "Physicians" of old and remain "Doctors". However, people who specialise in becoming surgeons are different.
We go through a training and exams that are governed by the Royal Colleges of Surgeons. But remember these Colleges had their origins in organisations like the Guild of Barber-Surgeons and so weren't allowed to use the term "Doctor"...by the Physicians.
Surgeons, however, would have to go through a long and rigorous training with extremely tough exams, regulated by the Royal Colleges of Surgeons. For example, one of my Primary exams for one of my Surgeon's exam traditionally had a pass rate of just 6% when I did it. If one passed the exams one would be admitted to the College as a "Fellow" of that college and allowed to call oneself "Mr" or "Miss" instead of just the courtesy title "Dr" which one would have until passing the exams to become a Fellow of one of these Colleges. So, one would regard it as a real mark of achievement.
However, because the Royal Colleges of Physicians were not part of this...i.e they were always all "Doctors"...their Members and Fellows are always termed "Doctor".
But amongst Surgeons because the exams were so tough to get admitted to our Colleges as Fellows (FRCS) we inevitably feel almost insulted if someone still addresses us by the (mere) term "Dr"" !
But for Physicians...even Fellows of their Colleges... they remain "Dr", as to be called anything else would be an insult and degrade them to the level of us (mere) Barber up-starts! :lol:
Now, someone could be in training to become a surgeon and not yet have passed all of the required exams etc yet and so still be called "Dr" instead of "Mr/Miss". Or they could be a very highly qualified Consultant Physician and their correct title would still be "Dr"...the same as the day they very first qualified.
So, that's it in a nut-shell!
Now, there are slight subtle nuances to the above...
(Consultants in Obs and Gynae tend to be called "Mr or Miss".... However, they may not actually have earned their true "Badge of Honour" as an FRCS because they have their own College! In years gone by they probably would have been FRCS and so got their Mr or Miss title via that route. But with their own College of Obs and Gynae they can circumvent the traditional surgical route yet they still take the title "Mr or Miss". )
So, I know it probably seems confusing and I may not have explained it very well but the titles "Mr/Miss" or "Dr" actually has nothing to do with whether a particular doctor is a consultant or not. It depends on their speciality...and then if they're a surgeon on their level of training and the exams that they've passed.
...and then the Royal College of Surgeons examinations were hugely dumbed-down such that junior doctors may pass the MRCS to become "Mr" or "Miss" within a year or two of graduating from medical school at a time when they likely will have yet to brandish a scalpel with any conviction and certainly have very little surgical experience. This is for political reasons and for the financial benefit of the College but leaves those of us who sweated blood to enter the College feeling somewhat disenfranchised. Perhaps that is a conversation for another time and place!
A good read over a morning Coffee!!
What a great car history, the 8 series really stand out to me out of the photos on your website! They're really growing on me. What were they like to drive?
Re: the SHO who hadn't extracted a tooth before ... How on earth have they managed that? It is even a GDC requirement to extract x number of teeth at university, and x number of MOS extractions. I wonder if they qualified from one of the two post-grad only courses in the country
What a great car history, the 8 series really stand out to me out of the photos on your website! They're really growing on me. What were they like to drive?
Re: the SHO who hadn't extracted a tooth before ... How on earth have they managed that? It is even a GDC requirement to extract x number of teeth at university, and x number of MOS extractions. I wonder if they qualified from one of the two post-grad only courses in the country
Haha, absolutely. We're all "Mr" at our practice! It used to get confusing at the dental hospitals at university, trying not to get shouted at by calling somebody the wrong name. You had the dentists who were just dentists, the old school scary guys would shout if you called them doctor. Then the PhD boffins would would shout if you called them Mr or Ms. Then the normal dentists who preferred to be Dr , when you thought it should be Mr. Then you qualify, and the indemnity companies have badges waiting for you with Dr on! Zzzzzzzzpvr said:
derin100
Active member
-Tom- said:A good read over a morning Coffee!!
What a great car history, the 8 series really stand out to me out of the photos on your website! They're really growing on me. What were they like to drive?
Re: the SHO who hadn't extracted a tooth before ... How on earth have they managed that? It is even a GDC requirement to extract x number of teeth at university, and x number of MOS extractions. I wonder if they qualified from one of the two post-grad only courses in the country
Well, I don't know about the GDC requirements....maybe this guy had managed to slip/cheat his way through? That wouldn't have surprised me as he was certainly trying to "slip/cheat" his way through the job with us! He was an absolute prize A-hole! He's the closest I've ever known a "doctor" ever come to being actually sacked whilst in a hospital post.
It didn't start too well with him right from the off. The day he arrived, he waltzed into the theatre where I and my registrar were scrubbed at the table doing an operation. My registrar was a very senior registrar near the end of his training and originally from India, so very much of the "Old School" still particularly in terms of respect and deference to seniors. This SHO, in his first job, swaggered in and meeting me for the first time, greeted me with the salutation: "Alright, Mate!"
My registrar nearly fainted! :lol:
The 8-Series really are a great car. They were much maligned and generally misunderstood right from their first release 25 years ago. The expectation was a straight replacement for the E24 6-Series Coupes which themselves had replaced the E9 Coupes. However, the E31 8-Series wasn't really like them. It's a far heavier, better and more expensively built machine being much more advanced and refined. Really a quantum leap in those respects. However, many press reviewers didn't like the weight that they carry etc. At the time, they were also seen as scarily advanced and complex technically. The mere mention of them causing mechanics at the time (who didn't have the knowledge or diagnostic tools themselves) to take a sharp intake of breath.
Yes, they were advanced for their time but not by any stretch of the imagination by modern standards. Even an E38 7-Series is actually technically more complex than an E31 yet one rarely hears that sharp intake of breath now when one of these is mentioned? However, this myth of technological mystic surrounding the 8-Series still seems to persist to this day. I think, for these reasons, 8-Series values have yet to really take off. However, I feel the time is now ripe, if not even overdue, for them to become much more valued and appreciated. The really doggy ones have or are fast becoming scrappers, leaving the really good ones few and far between. When one looks at the values on the Continent, for example in Germany on mobile.de, they are already much, much more expensive there.
They do feel quite different to drive than other BMWs I've had or driven. They're big but quite low with a long and broad expanse of bonnet in front of you and so you can't see very well where the nose ends.
You can also feel the weight. An 840 8-Series is something like 200lbs heavier than its contemporary E38 740 IIRC.
Add to this a braking system that works via an accumulator rather than the thing most people are more used to which are more direct feeling servos and it makes the brakes feel like they're not up to the job. But it is only a feeling that one needs to get used to. Many people waste large amounts of money thinking they're upgrading the brakes (pads, braided lines etc) in order to get more feel. However, the system used in the 8-Series is actually a more expensive system and delivers more progressive braking because of it. I read a review once that showed an 8-Series would out-brake a contemporary Porsche Carrera! It just doesn't like it's going to and so it can be a bit scary at first because at speed one thinks the brakes aren't going to stop something quite this big and heavy from high speed. But they will...you just have to trust them!
They're not by any means slow but maybe not as fast as they look (especially from 0 mph off-the-line because of the weight that you've got to get moving)...unless you're talking about an 850CSi. However, they're great at relentlessly pounding out great distances at high speed. Cruising at 120 mph really doesn't feel like you're doing 120 mph at all in them.
Some years back I was faced with my seemingly perennial problem of having too many cars and so something had to go. It came down to a straight choice between selling my E30 M3 that I posted above or the 840Ci Sport. For me at least, it was an absolute no contest. For me, the 8-Series represented a far better car. You can see and feel why it was that they probably cost circa double the price of an M3 when new and how even despite this BMW were making a loss on every one that they sold.
I'd highly recommend going and seeing a few good ones and seeing how you get on with driving them. Just don't expect a "sports car" though...but if you come from the approach of expecting a really solid, proper "Grand Tourer" that's designed to carry two people with all of their luggage in big boot, in style and comfort and at speed over long distances then I think you might like them.
A really good further source of information on them is here on this website. It looks a bit messy but it really is a treasure trove of information including a Buyer's Guide:
http://www.meeknet.co.uk/e31/
Hope that helps.
Thanks Derin! Loads of good info there. If I had some spare money to punt on a car, I think it would be one of the 8 series. I've always liked them from a nipper, when my dad got me into BMWs with his e30 323 coupe They really do look like a classic, and whilst cheap at the moment would make a good purchase! But I can see them going up to e30 M money easily over the next 5 years or so.
Re: the SHO, that's so funny. I wouldn't say "alright mate" to my colleagues who had age, are on a level playing field. I shadowed on Maxfax at Worcester when I was back at uni, absolutely fascinating stuff! You guys are wizards! I saw some amazing surgery that will stick with me.
They really do look like a classic, and whilst cheap at the moment would make a good purchase! But I can see them going up to e30 M money easily over the next 5 years or so. Re: the SHO, that's so funny. I wouldn't say "alright mate" to my colleagues who had age, are on a level playing field. I shadowed on Maxfax at Worcester when I was back at uni, absolutely fascinating stuff! You guys are wizards! I saw some amazing surgery that will stick with me.