2003 E85 - Wont Start :(

[IAmOrion]

Sooooooo I'm hoping someone may have had experience with something like this before and may be able to point me in the right direction.

My car does sit sometimes for 2 weeks at a time without being used - however, 6 months ago (ish, from memory) I put in a brand new battery (YBX5096 Yuasa Silver High Performance Car Battery 12V 80Ah HSB096). I also had to replace my starter motor back in August 2018. It's barely covered 1500 miles and 'suddenly' when I went to use my car, the battery was completely dead. I had a spare battery in the garage that was fully charged (it had been on maintenance charge so was a good healthy battery)... I hooked this up thinking it would boost it enough to start... but nothing apart from some clunking. After trying some other batteries and even a jump start from 2 different vehicles, after 20mins I was left confused.

We decided to try and bump start it, to which it started perfectly. Let it run for a few mins... turned it off, then let it sit for half hour on charge. Tried to start it again, started perfectly...... waited another half hour as I went off to do some other household chores, this time, it refused to start, same problem as before, just clunking.

I pulled the starter motor out to check it, and appears to be working as expected

[youtube]aedrbI9_a9o[/youtube]

Re-fitted it back in the car - and this is all that happens:

[youtube]jKVqoiFmLwg[/youtube]

Now, my mechanic friend (who is going purely on the video and what I told him over the phone - meaning it's a loose diagnosis) is suggesting it's most likely a power issue or a bad earth. I tried connecting the spare battery direct to the +ve terminal in the bay (The block that connects to the battery and the starter), and the -ve directly to the starter motor body. Still the same problem.... Now, Id lost day light at this point so what I DIDN'T test, was connecting the spare battery +ve directly to the starter motor which IS something my friend said to test and rule out.

Now, he's an experienced mechanic, and is doubtful that the Bosch Starter motor would have failed within 1500 miles. Whilst not impossible, he said it's highly unlikely. He also pointed out that "generally" starter motors pack up entirely... and that bump starting it shouldn't have affected the starter motors ability to start the car - hence, again, why he's suggesting it's more likely an electrical issue.

These are the suggestions he gave that I'm checking tomorrow (Tuesday 4th) and wondered if anyone else had any thoughts.

He said that the Cable that goes from the battery terminal post in the engine bay, down to the starter motor can fail given its age, from damp/moisture. He said that he's seen it a handful of times where over the years moisture gets in and the crimps get green gunk etc inside and can corrode and fail.

Then next thought is the SBK / BST thingy. I tried researching this but I have to say, I have no errors, no airbag lights etc, nothing in ISTA/D to do with the battery, but who knows if it could be failing in some other way :|

Any help/thoughts much appreciated

 

[ph001]

Do all the dash lights come on as you would expect when cranking? The ignition switch is a common failure point and can cause issues like this. What you really need to do is put an oscilloscope on the starter terminal to see what the voltage is doing when it’s doing the clicking thing. The voltage should not drop below about 10V or so....if it does then you have a high resistance connection somewhere. If it doesn’t then it’s your starter motor.

 

[IAmOrion]

Do all the dash lights come on as you would expect when cranking? The ignition switch is a common failure point and can cause issues like this. What you really need to do is put an oscilloscope on the starter terminal to see what the voltage is doing when it’s doing the clicking thing. The voltage should not drop below about 10V or so....if it does then you have a high resistance connection somewhere. If it doesn’t then it’s your starter motor.

Well, they flicker when it's trying to crank, as if it's losing power for a split second (which I think it does as the clock reset - I'll make sure to double check it and film it tomorrow when I look again).

I don't have an oscilloscope, I do have numerous multimeters - Which terminal should I be connecting it on?

On a side note, what ARE the different terminals on the starter motor? There's 3 - there's the main +ve, there's a smaller 8mm and then a smaller 7mm (I assume one is a signal from the EWS, and the other the "Exciter wire" or whatever my mate called it and did tell me to check with a voltmeter lol)

For the sake of £10 I've literally just ordered an ignition switch from Quarry Motors (I saw a diff thread about a similar issue and there was a link that still works ha)

 

[srhutch]

For a tenner it’s worth swapping the ignition switch.

Quarry motors via eBay :wink:

 

[ph001]

Well, they flicker when it's trying to crank, as if it's losing power for a split second (which I think it does as the clock reset - I'll make sure to double check it and film it tomorrow when I look again).

I think there is a big clue there...this suggests that you have a high resistance problem somewhere in the battery power circuitry. Basically when you are pulling a big current from the battery, you are losing some of the 12V across high resistance connections. This means by the time you get to the starter there is insufficient voltage left to turn over the starter motor (and to power the rest of the car, hence the clock reset). It could be the wiring, earthing or a connector somewhere.

But before you explore that avenue I would defo try the new ignition switch just to eliminate it and you need to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it's not your battery - I know you have tried other batteries and yours is only 6 months old, but remember a battery can be killed within a week if allowed to sit for any length of time below 10V. This sulphates the plates up and the battery goes high resistance - measures OK when off load with a voltmeter but as soon as you take current from it the volts drop way down. Again this is perhaps something you can look at with your multimeter - get someone to try to start the car whilst you look at volts right across the battery. If it drops below 11V then your battery is stuffed.

 

[IAmOrion]

For a tenner it’s worth swapping the ignition switch.

Quarry motors via eBay :wink:

Yup, already ordered (Maybe you missed me saying that in my post ) -- I actually think it was a link you provided in another thread that I used to buy one.

Todays update:

So, the problem is NOT the cable going from the +ve post in engine bay, nor is it a bad earth.

The battery dropped to around 10.5 whilst cranking (measuring the starter motor bolt +ve and chassis -ve). On charge it's 13.5v - regardless, I'm 100% the battery itself is NOT the issue. Also, it was NOT losing power and resetting the clock when cranking, the clock does in fact stay set correctly. So I was mis-remembering when I said I thought it was resetting the clock.

Now, following what you both said about the ignition switch, I am at a similar conclusion. I measured the voltage on the 2 smaller posts of the starter motor (I don't actually know what's what out of those 2. I don't know which is the "exciter wire" as it's called. And I hate the pictures in newtis in schematic form - I much prefer a picture of an actual starter motor, with the 3 posts marked accordingly - eg, Souce/Main +ve, Exciter, EWS or whatever it is) . -anways, both barely registered even 0.3v - it jumped from about 0.3v - 0.9v but since I'm using a multimeter, it's presumably fluctuating more than the multimeter can measure (hence why an oscilloscope would be much better as mentioned by ph001)

So - I'm guessing that potentially means the starter motor actually IS ok, and the problem could be with the ignition switch?

I did also plug a C310+ into my car and also INSTA/D (via k/dcan cable) and there's no obvious issues. It IS showing as in transport mode now, however that's expected since it went flat for some time - so I'm not bothered about that at this precise moment in time.

Any more thoughts - would that seem on par with what others have experienced regarding the ignition switch?

 

[wonkydonkey]

You told us in your original post that your battery suddenly went flat. Is this true? Or is it that your engine wouldn't start and you attributed that to your battery having probably gone flat?

Just a small point to clear up

 

[IAmOrion]

You told us in your original post that your battery suddenly went flat. Is this true? Or is it that your engine wouldn't start and you attributed that to your battery having probably gone flat?

Just a small point to clear up

Sorry, poor wording on my part - the car had sat for 2 weeks. It was definitely a flat battery too, but it wasn’t “suddenly” really, I just said “suddenly” because it’d previously sat for about 2 weeks but never seemed a problem, always started first time every time and not even the slightest struggle! Semantics eh ... my bad

Despite it sitting for 2 weeks - I was still surprised it was flat, I don’t have any “permanently live” gadgets

 

[wonkydonkey]

[ref]IAmOrion[/ref] okay cool, just checking

 

[IAmOrion]

Well, I still haven't really resolved this

Here's what I've done and learnt at the same time (ha) ...

- I replaced the ignition switch, this made no difference. I've tried 2 - so that really rules out the ignition switch

- I learned that using the AK90+ I could actually "clone" my EWS (Since the relay is apparently a known issue for causing the EWS to fail), and thus I managed to successfully clone my EWS (Dumped the MCU) and flashed it onto another EWS Unit I had spare from a scrappy some time ago. I didn't even need to re-align the DDE/DWS (I forget it's name now) and the EWS regarding rolling codes etc (I have INPA anyways and also XDiag Pro, so could have done this had I needed to, but I didn't).... the problem still persists, so this rules out the EWS

-- In addition to the EWS test, I also unplugged the EWS, and connect a 30A fuse into the plug, joining pins 1 & 2 ... this actually DID crank the engine, but of course, wouldn't start since the EWS wasn't attached. However, when I Reconnect the EWS, I'm back to the clunking/clanging again

-- I've had a spare battery - but this is where I'm heading into some weird stuff going on. So, firstly, I tried jumping it from another car (Citroen C3), a van (Renault Master 2.5) and a Citroen C6 -- nothing, still the same noise as in my 2nd video in first post. I have concluded the battery in my car - a "YBX5096 YUASA SILVER HIGH PERFORMANCE CAR BATTERY 12V 80AH HSB096" was defo dead and I suspect knackered . I had what I thought was a good battery spare - but that wouldn't start it either........

Now, LONG story short, I removed the knackered battery and put my "thought good" battery in the boot but used Jumper Cables to connect the battery to the battery connections because I didn't want to strap in this other battery as it's a spare for something else. If I connected my Clarke JumpStart 900 in parallel with this battery, it FINALLY started! We (me and my Dad) then tested numerous jump starts, numerous vehicles etc but still wouldn't start and resulted in the clanking again, even with the jumpstart900 connected. Ultimately it seemed that only the LION battery connected via cables AND the Booster would start the car.....

Then my mechanic friend suggested my Jumpers could be ebay cheapos - so I then connected the battery to the terminals correctly. F**K me if it didn't start perfectly ... so, to then recreate the issue, I left the battery in place, but used jumper cables again from the battery terminals, to the cars +ve and -ve terminals. Nothing - clank clank clank but can't start. We then tried 3 different sets of jumper cables, 1 set was really long, the other super short, the 3rd "average" (?) length AA branded - NONE will start the car regardless of length.

Reconnected the terminals direct to battery and it bloody starts!! I'm so confused right now!!

It certainly seems to be some kind of power issue but I'm buggered if I can figure it out!!

I'm going to buy another battery tomorrow -- Any suggestions?? I'm not a fan of the LION brand batteries, the one that failed was a YBX5096 as mentioned (It's being returned to Tayna to be tested and hopefully replaced/refunded under warranty).... I'm thinking of picking up a Bosch S5 S008 77AH 780cca battery... any thoughts?

Anyone have any insights as to why it's being so weird!? I can't believe that 3 sets of jumper cables can ALL be so rubbish that they can't handle the power needed to crank?? Although that certainly seems to be the case right now! I'm genuinely at a loss as to what the problem is

 

[Naylz]

Sure the starter motor is the correct one? My mate had a similar issue with a kit car, turned out the small cog on his new starter motor was slightly off so it just jammed against the flywheel.

 

[IAmOrion]

Sure the starter motor is the correct one? My mate had a similar issue with a kit car, turned out the small cog on his new starter motor was slightly off so it just jammed against the flywheel.

Yup, 100% the correct starter motor, and confirmed to be working perfectly fine (even under load) -- fwiw, the starter motor is only like 8 months old and only covered 1500 miles

 

[Trav]

I experienced almost exactly the same a few weeks ago. Couldnt measure any bad connections or any bad voltages. Jumped it with a few combinations of leads to make sure. I did notice though that the battery (6 months old) did take a reasonsble charge when I put my charger on it. I did get it started after leaving the charger on a while. (And a technical tap) I didnt get too intrusive at the time as the inlet manifold box clips are a bit of a pain to get off and the starter is underneath. I have just been to work and the car was left sitting for 3 weeks. I fully expected it to start clicking again. It hasn't failed since. I have taken it only on a couple of short runs to get it moving and I am leaving it for another couple of weeks to go on holiday. I am sort of hoping the problem returns then so I can put it down to a battery draining issue. I was just going to get a new starter. But reading your investigation makes me think I may let the battery fade a bit more and see if it returns first.

 

[IAmOrion]

I experienced almost exactly the same a few weeks ago. Couldnt measure any bad connections or any bad voltages. Jumped it with a few combinations of leads to make sure. I did notice though that the battery (6 months old) did take a reasonsble charge when I put my charger on it. I did get it started after leaving the charger on a while. (And a technical tap) I didnt get too intrusive at the time as the inlet manifold box clips are a bit of a pain to get off and the starter is underneath. I have just been to work and the car was left sitting for 3 weeks. I fully expected it to start clicking again. It hasn't failed since. I have taken it only on a couple of short runs to get it moving and I am leaving it for another couple of weeks to go on holiday. I am sort of hoping the problem returns then so I can put it down to a battery draining issue. I was just going to get a new starter. But reading your investigation makes me think I may let the battery fade a bit more and see if it returns first.

Interesting! I'm kind of silently nodding to myself as I read that thinking "Ah-ha so someone else HAS experience this weirdness".

So far, I've deduced that BOTH batteries are perhaps a bit old and defective. The Yuasa one I'm returning under warranty - the spare I tested with is old so maybe it's not as healthy as I thought. But I'm so confused as to why NO jumper leads, when connected to the battery and then the terminals will let it start! But when connected directly it did. As I said, I tried 3 lots of jumper cables too

I Should have added in my other posts, I also had a maintenance charger connected for days - I have one which is supposed to be good, I forget the brand, but I also just bought another one to rules out the damned charger - I bought a "NoCo Genius G7200" but that also reports the battery as fine and fully charged..... so now I'm just scratching my head as to why none of the jumper cables are good enough!

 

[ph001]

Its not really that weird. It’s all to do with resistance again (and not just the cables...can be the croc clips too). You have to remember that turning over the starter pulls a LOT of current, typically 200A or so. You don’t need much resistance in the way to cause much of a volt drop and even a couple of volts is enough for the engine not to start.

The maths is pretty simple:

Volt drop = current x resistance

So you can see that even a resistance of 0.01 ohms will give you a couple of volts of volt drop:

200A x 0.01ohms = 2v drop

...and 0.01 ohms is hardly any resistance at all. Now you understand why most jump leads just don’t work very well.

 

[IAmOrion]

Its not really that weird. It’s all to do with resistance again (and not just the cables...can be the croc clips too). You have to remember that turning over the starter pulls a LOT of current, typically 200A or so. You don’t need much resistance in the way to cause much of a volt drop and even a couple of volts is enough for the engine not to start.

The maths is pretty simple:

Volt drop = current x resistance

So you can see that even a resistance of 0.01 ohms will give you a couple of volts of volt drop:

200A x 0.01ohms = 2v drop

...and 0.01 ohms is hardly any resistance at all. Now you understand why most jump leads just don’t work very well.

Lol, I fully understand electronics and voltage drop etc (I have been into & studied electronics since I was about 10) ... I should've perhaps worded my mini rant better though.

I'm more confused by the fact that 3 cables are no good - rated for 3000A up to 8 litre petrol / 6 litre diesel (Something like that) so should be fine - which means it boils down to potentially 3 sets being rubbish - I'm confused why life wants to be an a-hole to me etc just moaning like a true brit haha

 

[ph001]

Ah ok, sorry didn’t realise. . The z4 seems to be really sensitive to low volts. It’s probably a combination of the contact resistance on the croc clips and the cables. Very easy for that to add up to 10 milliohms or more.