Shmee has released a first look video
- Thread starter Doddsy
- Start date
I dont know how 'WE' class the boxster.sars said:
I only know how 'I' class it and in this topic I havent spoken about that....
I can only say that the 35is has a (DIN) weight of 1500kg, the e85 3.0i has a (DIN) weight of 1295kg, the 718 boxster S has a (DIN) weight of 1360kg and the 1st gen boxster S as a (DIN) weight of 1335kg
This means that the boxster S has hardly gained weight over its 20 years existence whereas the z4 gained over 200kg in 1 generation. Taking off only 50kg off that weight isnt a real achievement imho (if the report of shmee is accurate).
But I'm talking from a perspective that I think the e85 is already a bit on the lardy side for a sportscar. Guess we have different ideas on whats important in a real sportscars or different demands on driving characteristics.
sars said:
According to my handbook that weight of the Boxster is with an average driver and some luggage as well Sars, just for interests sake.
I too find the ‘I won’t be buying one’ negativity strange when no one has driven one yet, what if it’s utterly brilliant and really is a serious porker rival, it looks better, has a better interior, more tech and is a change from Stuttgart’s finest? To me it’s looking like the perfect sports car, not too hardcore yet a nimble, powerful comfy roadster with all the right kit.
We’re all different though obviously.
In the nicest possible way the forum is a quite conservative place with many not liking change.
The introduction of the E89 was really hated on, weight, folding roof, wheels cracking, size, handling! Most of all because there was no M variant when BMW had access to that amazing V8, 100hp on the S54, 2 more cylinders and weighed almost the same.... looked like it could have been a great combo with some M sharpness upgrades. Alas it never happened.
Its also the fact you cant buy a "new" Z4, currently the maximum any Z4 is about £30k but the vast majority of current Z4s are 5-18k. The new one is slated to be 40k but i very much doubt that as the E89 was more expensive, I could see these easily running to £55k. Were talking about huge differences in price meaning different buyers.
Its very doubtful anyone looking at the "current" Z4 options will be in the market for this, 10K E85/6 3.0SI even a 20k E89 35IS, there will be a 30-40k difference in price.
With the gap of 2 years since the E89 was last produced I would say the current owners probably arent the target market. I doubt there are many 1 owner Zs left the ones that are... is it really going to be a mass migration of Z4s coming onto the AUC market, Doubtful.
The target audience of the 55k Z4 have moved on because BMW left them with no option. At the end of the production run even with the discounts the Z4 was expensive vs pre owned they just weren't very attractive and the numbers at the end of that period were minuscule.
The people who did buy cars at the end of the run was because the majority of facelift cars were sold in 35IS spec but with very few options and were sold in small numbers so were hard to get hold of. The only way to get what you wanted was to order it new and the fact no new Z4 had been announced or was even on the horizon with the only chatter being a hybrid which excited... no one.
They will be trying to win those customers back that have moved on to another BMW or brand.
Its also a big risk buying these things, the E89 had awful residuals, to the point when the facelift came out they put huge discounts on 35IS models with no spec to get Z4 owners to upgrade because the boxster was the same price but a far better drivers car and the E89 was slated by the press. The residuals have been so much better on the Porsche alternatives. A fully loaded lowish mile E89 35is wont set you back much more than 22-25k yet a similar 981 box/cay will cost you 32-35k for a standardish S all the way up to 55k for a GTS.
You also have to factor in the financial situation between 2009-2014 it wasnt a particularly stable time so that was also a factor. 987.2 Boxster and Caymans sold in very low numbers too in that time but were available from the end of 2009 to early 2012 (18 months) before the 981 was introduced.
The E89 has gathered traction in the used market because it wasn't received well and they are cheap just like the Z4MC was, they have become real bargains with lots of performance on tap, with comfort and they are good looking cars. With low end 35I being 13k they are absolute bargains what ever way you look at it. Makes them available to lots of people that wouldn't have bought one new. I bought my 4yo Z4Mc with 45k for 17.5k in 2011, because i couldn't afford the insurance on an E46 M3.
Forums are full of enthusiasts and unfortunately BMW doesn't cater for these people anymore, even if they make an M version it will be on the same line as the M4 style cars. They are quick and purposeful easily being weekend and dailies. The old M cars with notchy gear boxes and poor fuel economy wernt that suitable as dailies. You could use them as dailies but you had to really love them... aka an enthusiast.
Now anyone can drive the newer gen cars quick, there is no effort plant your foot and go.
The main issue is all of the modern M cars have lost the essence of what an M car is, the M brand is so diluted that almost every model has an M variant and sub M variant like the M140s etc. BMW are in it to sell cars and have made this perfectly clear. They are not for the enthusiast. Look at the M140 they have sold a shed tonne, those numbers are a success and BMW will be happy to make more of these mid way cars.
At the end of the day people that buy cars are the mass market, they dont want spine shattering ride quality, only suitable for a weekend a&b road blasts. They want comfortable cars, with the best tech, quick in a straight line because most will sit on the motorway and they want to look good while doing so. An extension of their own persona.
BMW obviously feel they cant compete with the box/cay market with the Z4 which is why the E89 was produced. Maybe BMW feel the M2 and M4 are more suitable as competitors... although again I wouldn't call either a sports car but a fast saloons. This generation Z4 looks not to be a GT and not an all out sport car but something in between that can tickle your fancy in both areas, while maintaining a 6 cyl motor and 2 seats in a world where 1.8 and 2.0 turbos are the new generation. Im not really sure what that is, but it is what it is good at many things, master of none.
At least they kept it a 6 cyl, although a turbo it sounds very purposeful. Its very hard to get excited about smaller engine, worce sounding cars. I cant get excited about the Alpine although interesting it just doesn't do it for me, the new box/cay again amazing car but there is no emotional attachment. Its not just BMW its across the whole board. All the options for me are lacking and cars that generally are exciting are in 7-100k mark which will never be affordable to me.
Even at 55k the new Z4 will have to compete with AUC pre owned cars that are 2-3 years old and maybe were 20-30k more. To many they may be more appealing like a 911, F type V8S for example. Most of these cars get 2 year AUC warranties and are also current.
Its very easy to say this is what it should be, but BMW wont make a car specific for your needs. The difference between what you say you want and what makes you part with your money are two different things.
Often the opinion of a small group vs a years of market research and analysis are polar opposites.
The introduction of the E89 was really hated on, weight, folding roof, wheels cracking, size, handling! Most of all because there was no M variant when BMW had access to that amazing V8, 100hp on the S54, 2 more cylinders and weighed almost the same.... looked like it could have been a great combo with some M sharpness upgrades. Alas it never happened.
Its also the fact you cant buy a "new" Z4, currently the maximum any Z4 is about £30k but the vast majority of current Z4s are 5-18k. The new one is slated to be 40k but i very much doubt that as the E89 was more expensive, I could see these easily running to £55k. Were talking about huge differences in price meaning different buyers.
Its very doubtful anyone looking at the "current" Z4 options will be in the market for this, 10K E85/6 3.0SI even a 20k E89 35IS, there will be a 30-40k difference in price.
With the gap of 2 years since the E89 was last produced I would say the current owners probably arent the target market. I doubt there are many 1 owner Zs left the ones that are... is it really going to be a mass migration of Z4s coming onto the AUC market, Doubtful.
The target audience of the 55k Z4 have moved on because BMW left them with no option. At the end of the production run even with the discounts the Z4 was expensive vs pre owned they just weren't very attractive and the numbers at the end of that period were minuscule.
The people who did buy cars at the end of the run was because the majority of facelift cars were sold in 35IS spec but with very few options and were sold in small numbers so were hard to get hold of. The only way to get what you wanted was to order it new and the fact no new Z4 had been announced or was even on the horizon with the only chatter being a hybrid which excited... no one.
They will be trying to win those customers back that have moved on to another BMW or brand.
Its also a big risk buying these things, the E89 had awful residuals, to the point when the facelift came out they put huge discounts on 35IS models with no spec to get Z4 owners to upgrade because the boxster was the same price but a far better drivers car and the E89 was slated by the press. The residuals have been so much better on the Porsche alternatives. A fully loaded lowish mile E89 35is wont set you back much more than 22-25k yet a similar 981 box/cay will cost you 32-35k for a standardish S all the way up to 55k for a GTS.
You also have to factor in the financial situation between 2009-2014 it wasnt a particularly stable time so that was also a factor. 987.2 Boxster and Caymans sold in very low numbers too in that time but were available from the end of 2009 to early 2012 (18 months) before the 981 was introduced.
The E89 has gathered traction in the used market because it wasn't received well and they are cheap just like the Z4MC was, they have become real bargains with lots of performance on tap, with comfort and they are good looking cars. With low end 35I being 13k they are absolute bargains what ever way you look at it. Makes them available to lots of people that wouldn't have bought one new. I bought my 4yo Z4Mc with 45k for 17.5k in 2011, because i couldn't afford the insurance on an E46 M3.
Forums are full of enthusiasts and unfortunately BMW doesn't cater for these people anymore, even if they make an M version it will be on the same line as the M4 style cars. They are quick and purposeful easily being weekend and dailies. The old M cars with notchy gear boxes and poor fuel economy wernt that suitable as dailies. You could use them as dailies but you had to really love them... aka an enthusiast.
Now anyone can drive the newer gen cars quick, there is no effort plant your foot and go.
The main issue is all of the modern M cars have lost the essence of what an M car is, the M brand is so diluted that almost every model has an M variant and sub M variant like the M140s etc. BMW are in it to sell cars and have made this perfectly clear. They are not for the enthusiast. Look at the M140 they have sold a shed tonne, those numbers are a success and BMW will be happy to make more of these mid way cars.
At the end of the day people that buy cars are the mass market, they dont want spine shattering ride quality, only suitable for a weekend a&b road blasts. They want comfortable cars, with the best tech, quick in a straight line because most will sit on the motorway and they want to look good while doing so. An extension of their own persona.
BMW obviously feel they cant compete with the box/cay market with the Z4 which is why the E89 was produced. Maybe BMW feel the M2 and M4 are more suitable as competitors... although again I wouldn't call either a sports car but a fast saloons. This generation Z4 looks not to be a GT and not an all out sport car but something in between that can tickle your fancy in both areas, while maintaining a 6 cyl motor and 2 seats in a world where 1.8 and 2.0 turbos are the new generation. Im not really sure what that is, but it is what it is good at many things, master of none.
At least they kept it a 6 cyl, although a turbo it sounds very purposeful. Its very hard to get excited about smaller engine, worce sounding cars. I cant get excited about the Alpine although interesting it just doesn't do it for me, the new box/cay again amazing car but there is no emotional attachment. Its not just BMW its across the whole board. All the options for me are lacking and cars that generally are exciting are in 7-100k mark which will never be affordable to me.
Even at 55k the new Z4 will have to compete with AUC pre owned cars that are 2-3 years old and maybe were 20-30k more. To many they may be more appealing like a 911, F type V8S for example. Most of these cars get 2 year AUC warranties and are also current.
Its very easy to say this is what it should be, but BMW wont make a car specific for your needs. The difference between what you say you want and what makes you part with your money are two different things.
Often the opinion of a small group vs a years of market research and analysis are polar opposites.
Fugly. The e85 will never be beaten.
john-e89 said:
Yep the DIN and EU Unladen weights differ by 75 kg, that is 68kg for driver and 7 kg for luggage. Being an EU regulation all manufacturers that supply cars into the EU must specify the unladen weight as per the EU definition. Germans being Germans prefer the DIN standard because its German and thus specify both.
The US Kerb weight is a bit more hit and miss because it must include all options where sales of that option is specified in more than 33% of the cars sold (so think automatics etcetera).
Thus the kerb weight of the 2006 E85 3.0si was 1400 kg, which would include an automatic gearbox but not the driver. The kerb weight of the E89 35is was 1525 kg, which does equate to the DIN unladen weight. As I stated previously the figure banded for the G29 is 1500 kg but we do not know if this is kerb or unladen or DIN or EU nor for what model. In all the articles I've read BMW have intimated that they have been working to reduce weight over the old E89 and I cannot see why it won't be getting closer to the 3.0si E85
SpiketheBike
Member
Phew Tomscott. Good read. You know what though. I can't drive to the capacity of my E89. I love how it looks and drives. Nuff said, for me anyway. My barber pulls my leg, but he's younger than me and drives a Jag XF yawn yawn. But others say it looks great. I love it. Who cares what any one else thinks. 
Best car I've ever had.
Best car I've ever had.In the nicest possible way, you are talking a load of bolloxtomscott said:In the nicest possible way the forum is a quite conservative place with many not liking change.
The introduction of the E89 was really hated on, weight, folding roof, wheels cracking, size, handling! Most of all because there was no M variant when BMW had access to that amazing V8, 100hp on the S54, 2 more cylinders and weighed almost the same.... looked like it could have been a great combo with some M sharpness upgrades. Alas it never happened.
Its also the fact you cant buy a "new" Z4, currently the maximum any Z4 is about £30k but the vast majority of current Z4s are 5-18k. The new one is slated to be 40k but i very much doubt that as the E89 was more expensive, I could see these easily running to £55k. Were talking about huge differences in price meaning different buyers.
Its very doubtful anyone looking at the "current" Z4 options will be in the market for this, 10K E85/6 3.0SI even a 20k E89 35IS, there will be a 30-40k difference in price.
With the gap of 2 years since the E89 was last produced I would say the current owners probably arent the target market. I doubt there are many 1 owner Zs left the ones that are... is it really going to be a mass migration of Z4s coming onto the AUC market, Doubtful.
The target audience of the 55k Z4 have moved on because BMW left them with no option. At the end of the production run even with the discounts the Z4 was expensive vs pre owned they just weren't very attractive and the numbers at the end of that period were minuscule.
The people who did buy cars at the end of the run was because the majority of facelift cars were sold in 35IS spec but with very few options and were sold in small numbers so were hard to get hold of. The only way to get what you wanted was to order it new and the fact no new Z4 had been announced or was even on the horizon with the only chatter being a hybrid which excited... no one.
They will be trying to win those customers back that have moved on to another BMW or brand.
Its also a big risk buying these things, the E89 had awful residuals, to the point when the facelift came out they put huge discounts on 35IS models with no spec to get Z4 owners to upgrade because the boxster was the same price but a far better drivers car and the E89 was slated by the press. The residuals have been so much better on the Porsche alternatives. A fully loaded lowish mile E89 35is wont set you back much more than 22-25k yet a similar 981 box/cay will cost you 32-35k for a standardish S all the way up to 55k for a GTS.
You also have to factor in the financial situation between 2009-2014 it wasnt a particularly stable time so that was also a factor. 987.2 Boxster and Caymans sold in very low numbers too in that time but were available from the end of 2009 to early 2012 (18 months) before the 981 was introduced.
The E89 has gathered traction in the used market because it wasn't received well and they are cheap just like the Z4MC was, they have become real bargains with lots of performance on tap, with comfort and they are good looking cars. With low end 35I being 13k they are absolute bargains what ever way you look at it. Makes them available to lots of people that wouldn't have bought one new. I bought my 4yo Z4Mc with 45k for 17.5k in 2011, because i couldn't afford the insurance on an E46 M3.
Forums are full of enthusiasts and unfortunately BMW doesn't cater for these people anymore, even if they make an M version it will be on the same line as the M4 style cars. They are quick and purposeful easily being weekend and dailies. The old M cars with notchy gear boxes and poor fuel economy wernt that suitable as dailies. You could use them as dailies but you had to really love them... aka an enthusiast.
Now anyone can drive the newer gen cars quick, there is no effort plant your foot and go.
The main issue is all of the modern M cars have lost the essence of what an M car is, the M brand is so diluted that almost every model has an M variant and sub M variant like the M140s etc. BMW are in it to sell cars and have made this perfectly clear. They are not for the enthusiast. Look at the M140 they have sold a shed tonne, those numbers are a success and BMW will be happy to make more of these mid way cars.
At the end of the day people that buy cars are the mass market, they dont want spine shattering ride quality, only suitable for a weekend a&b road blasts. They want comfortable cars, with the best tech, quick in a straight line because most will sit on the motorway and they want to look good while doing so. An extension of their own persona.
BMW obviously feel they cant compete with the box/cay market with the Z4 which is why the E89 was produced. Maybe BMW feel the M2 and M4 are more suitable as competitors... although again I wouldn't call either a sports car but a fast saloons. This generation Z4 looks not to be a GT and not an all out sport car but something in between that can tickle your fancy in both areas, while maintaining a 6 cyl motor and 2 seats in a world where 1.8 and 2.0 turbos are the new generation. Im not really sure what that is, but it is what it is good at many things, master of none.
At least they kept it a 6 cyl, although a turbo it sounds very purposeful. Its very hard to get excited about smaller engine, worce sounding cars. I cant get excited about the Alpine although interesting it just doesn't do it for me, the new box/cay again amazing car but there is no emotional attachment. Its not just BMW its across the whole board. All the options for me are lacking and cars that generally are exciting are in 7-100k mark which will never be affordable to me.
Even at 55k the new Z4 will have to compete with AUC pre owned cars that are 2-3 years old and maybe were 20-30k more. To many they may be more appealing like a 911, F type V8S for example. Most of these cars get 2 year AUC warranties and are also current.
Its very easy to say this is what it should be, but BMW wont make a car specific for your needs. The difference between what you say you want and what makes you part with your money are two different things.
Often the opinion of a small group vs a years of market research and analysis are polar opposites.
Zeld4 said:In the nicest possible way, you are talking a load of bolloxtomscott said:In the nicest possible way the forum is a quite conservative place with many not liking change.
The introduction of the E89 was really hated on, weight, folding roof, wheels cracking, size, handling! Most of all because there was no M variant when BMW had access to that amazing V8, 100hp on the S54, 2 more cylinders and weighed almost the same.... looked like it could have been a great combo with some M sharpness upgrades. Alas it never happened.
Its also the fact you cant buy a "new" Z4, currently the maximum any Z4 is about £30k but the vast majority of current Z4s are 5-18k. The new one is slated to be 40k but i very much doubt that as the E89 was more expensive, I could see these easily running to £55k. Were talking about huge differences in price meaning different buyers.
Its very doubtful anyone looking at the "current" Z4 options will be in the market for this, 10K E85/6 3.0SI even a 20k E89 35IS, there will be a 30-40k difference in price.
With the gap of 2 years since the E89 was last produced I would say the current owners probably arent the target market. I doubt there are many 1 owner Zs left the ones that are... is it really going to be a mass migration of Z4s coming onto the AUC market, Doubtful.
The target audience of the 55k Z4 have moved on because BMW left them with no option. At the end of the production run even with the discounts the Z4 was expensive vs pre owned they just weren't very attractive and the numbers at the end of that period were minuscule.
The people who did buy cars at the end of the run was because the majority of facelift cars were sold in 35IS spec but with very few options and were sold in small numbers so were hard to get hold of. The only way to get what you wanted was to order it new and the fact no new Z4 had been announced or was even on the horizon with the only chatter being a hybrid which excited... no one.
They will be trying to win those customers back that have moved on to another BMW or brand.
Its also a big risk buying these things, the E89 had awful residuals, to the point when the facelift came out they put huge discounts on 35IS models with no spec to get Z4 owners to upgrade because the boxster was the same price but a far better drivers car and the E89 was slated by the press. The residuals have been so much better on the Porsche alternatives. A fully loaded lowish mile E89 35is wont set you back much more than 22-25k yet a similar 981 box/cay will cost you 32-35k for a standardish S all the way up to 55k for a GTS.
You also have to factor in the financial situation between 2009-2014 it wasnt a particularly stable time so that was also a factor. 987.2 Boxster and Caymans sold in very low numbers too in that time but were available from the end of 2009 to early 2012 (18 months) before the 981 was introduced.
The E89 has gathered traction in the used market because it wasn't received well and they are cheap just like the Z4MC was, they have become real bargains with lots of performance on tap, with comfort and they are good looking cars. With low end 35I being 13k they are absolute bargains what ever way you look at it. Makes them available to lots of people that wouldn't have bought one new. I bought my 4yo Z4Mc with 45k for 17.5k in 2011, because i couldn't afford the insurance on an E46 M3.
Forums are full of enthusiasts and unfortunately BMW doesn't cater for these people anymore, even if they make an M version it will be on the same line as the M4 style cars. They are quick and purposeful easily being weekend and dailies. The old M cars with notchy gear boxes and poor fuel economy wernt that suitable as dailies. You could use them as dailies but you had to really love them... aka an enthusiast.
Now anyone can drive the newer gen cars quick, there is no effort plant your foot and go.
The main issue is all of the modern M cars have lost the essence of what an M car is, the M brand is so diluted that almost every model has an M variant and sub M variant like the M140s etc. BMW are in it to sell cars and have made this perfectly clear. They are not for the enthusiast. Look at the M140 they have sold a shed tonne, those numbers are a success and BMW will be happy to make more of these mid way cars.
At the end of the day people that buy cars are the mass market, they dont want spine shattering ride quality, only suitable for a weekend a&b road blasts. They want comfortable cars, with the best tech, quick in a straight line because most will sit on the motorway and they want to look good while doing so. An extension of their own persona.
BMW obviously feel they cant compete with the box/cay market with the Z4 which is why the E89 was produced. Maybe BMW feel the M2 and M4 are more suitable as competitors... although again I wouldn't call either a sports car but a fast saloons. This generation Z4 looks not to be a GT and not an all out sport car but something in between that can tickle your fancy in both areas, while maintaining a 6 cyl motor and 2 seats in a world where 1.8 and 2.0 turbos are the new generation. Im not really sure what that is, but it is what it is good at many things, master of none.
At least they kept it a 6 cyl, although a turbo it sounds very purposeful. Its very hard to get excited about smaller engine, worce sounding cars. I cant get excited about the Alpine although interesting it just doesn't do it for me, the new box/cay again amazing car but there is no emotional attachment. Its not just BMW its across the whole board. All the options for me are lacking and cars that generally are exciting are in 7-100k mark which will never be affordable to me.
Even at 55k the new Z4 will have to compete with AUC pre owned cars that are 2-3 years old and maybe were 20-30k more. To many they may be more appealing like a 911, F type V8S for example. Most of these cars get 2 year AUC warranties and are also current.
Its very easy to say this is what it should be, but BMW wont make a car specific for your needs. The difference between what you say you want and what makes you part with your money are two different things.
Often the opinion of a small group vs a years of market research and analysis are polar opposites.
I've got to be honest. I thought the same. :-?
I think Tom made some valid points to be fair. Problem is BMW I feel have never made a decent roadster with alround capabilities, there are always unfortunate compromises. I was pretty disapointed with my E89, it never felt sporty, chuckable and even build quality, fit and finish was poor in areas. It was never worth the asking price when new. My M140i has cheap rubbish build and quality in areas compared to my Hyundai 
and why I fancy an MX5 softop or RF if I was go back to that type of car. It just does all the basics right at the right cost.
Whilst the tech in cars is something you could only dream about 10 years ago I feel its diluting character in a car, the move away from manual gearboxes etc and BMW have recently announced they are withdrawing the sale of M Performance exhausts due to new laws in Germany relating the fitment of exhausts which are louder than the factory fit system,
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510264
I also understand the latest emissions software changes to the M140/240i now means there are no exhuasts pops on the overrun, I assume the change means less unburnt fuel reaches the exhaust system, again its all diluting the driving experience.
I can see the 6cyls slowly being phased and BMW following Porsche in more efficient 4cyl engines which are more highly stressed. You only have to look at the latest Ford Fiesta ST which is kicking out 200hp from a 3cyl and runs on 2cyls when cruising :?
Of course its all irrelevant anyways as I can't see combustion engines lasting another 10 years in new cars.
Tim.
and why I fancy an MX5 softop or RF if I was go back to that type of car. It just does all the basics right at the right cost. Whilst the tech in cars is something you could only dream about 10 years ago I feel its diluting character in a car, the move away from manual gearboxes etc and BMW have recently announced they are withdrawing the sale of M Performance exhausts due to new laws in Germany relating the fitment of exhausts which are louder than the factory fit system,
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510264
I also understand the latest emissions software changes to the M140/240i now means there are no exhuasts pops on the overrun, I assume the change means less unburnt fuel reaches the exhaust system, again its all diluting the driving experience.
I can see the 6cyls slowly being phased and BMW following Porsche in more efficient 4cyl engines which are more highly stressed. You only have to look at the latest Ford Fiesta ST which is kicking out 200hp from a 3cyl and runs on 2cyls when cruising :?
Of course its all irrelevant anyways as I can't see combustion engines lasting another 10 years in new cars.
Tim.
TitanTim said:I think Tom made some valid points to be fair. Problem is BMW I feel have never made a decent roadster with alround capabilities,
They have now.....
I can see the 6cyls slowly being phased
There’s a stonking one with dual blowers just gone in a car which ain’t even on sale yet Timothy.....!!:
Tim.
john-e89 said:TitanTim said:I think Tom made some valid points to be fair. Problem is BMW I feel have never made a decent roadster with alround capabilities,
They have now.....
I can see the 6cyls slowly being phased
There’s a stonking one with dual blowers just gone in a car which ain’t even on sale yet Timothy.....!!:
Tim.
No one's driven it yet John
it might be crap :lol: I'm not holding my breath 
but it might be a revelation in which case my dealer is 600 metres away :lol: Re 6cyls I think it will be taken out BMWs hands, unless they can continue to meet ever stringent emissions I can't see larger capacity engines lasting
All IMHO of course
Tim.
I think the e85 and e86 were both stonking cars, with the only compromises being they are two seaters, which you’d expect from a two seater. For what ever reason BMW changed the recipe for the e89, probably to try and steal sales from Mercedes and I don’t think it was that successful. They alienated Z4 e85 owners who enjoyed the engaging driving experience, they also failed to take make a dent in the SLK’s popularity so it was a lose, lose scenario. Also somebody is going to by a Merc because it’s a Merc, there’s a lot of brand loyalty for many reasons, so I think it would be best to keep your loyal customers happy and try to build on that, rather than switching tack all the time so nobody really knows what to expect. Just check out te sales figures between the e85 and e89, in America they sold about a third of the number of e89’s as they did e85’s, and Americans are true enthusiasts who even got a manual box on their V10 M5’s.TitanTim said:I think Tom made some valid points to be fair. Problem is BMW I feel have never made a decent roadster with alround capabilities, there are always unfortunate compromises. I was pretty disapointed with my E89, it never felt sporty, chuckable and even build quality, fit and finish was poor in areas. It was never worth the asking price when new. My M140i has cheap rubbish build and quality in areas compared to my Hyundai
Whilst the tech in cars is something you could only dream about 10 years ago I feel its diluting character in a car, the move away from manual gearboxes etc and BMW have recently announced they are withdrawing the sale of M Performance exhausts due to new laws in Germany relating the fitment of exhausts which are louder than the factory fit system,
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510264
I also understand the latest emissions software changes to the M140/240i now means there are no exhuasts pops on the overrun, I assume the change means less unburnt fuel reaches the exhaust system, again its all diluting the driving experience.
I can see the 6cyls slowly being phased and BMW following Porsche in more efficient 4cyl engines which are more highly stressed. You only have to look at the latest Ford Fiesta ST which is kicking out 200hp from a 3cyl and runs on 2cyls when cruising :?
Of course its all irrelevant anyways as I can't see combustion engines lasting another 10 years in new cars.
Tim.
On the plus side both the e85 and e89 are very distinctive cars, looking very different from anything else in the BMW range of their time. The new 2019 Z4 looks too generic BMW to me, almost like a new 8 series convertible which has been downsized. It looks very high over the wheel arches, the flanks look slab sided and the front is a mess, particularly the front lights which are huge and remind me of Peugeot 206 the way they seem to go half way down the wing to the wheel arch. I hate big front lights and have been loving the elegant jewel like lights on the new Vantage and MX5. This new Z4 front front light look seems like a blast from the very bad past.
I know you can never really tell by photos, and I’m praying it looks better in the flesh and of course cars grow on all of us, but I remember the first time I saw a Z4 coupe and it was like, wow!! And the amount of comments I get from friends and complete strangers go a long way to explain the enduring good looks of the e85-86. Porsche and Audi seem to be nailing it with the look and design of their small sports cars, first tine I saw the new TT and it’s sharp clean lines I thought it looked great and still like a TT. Porsche and Audi have also kept the recipe the same, just added power and handling prowess while honing the looks. Both the Boxter and and TT have been around for 20 or so years, they still look recognisable as the cars they started out as, also very modern and they sell like hot cakes.
If the Z4 doesn’t look good enough, no matter how well it drives I don’t think it will sell well which will be a shame, especially as BMW has had 9 years to get it right. I was watching Marco Pierre White’s address to the oxford union on YouTube recently and he was asked what the best meal he’s ever had. He said for him it’s about being with friends and the embiamce and look of the restaurant, the food is secondary. He also talked about not over thinking things and keeping it simple when cooking. He basically expects the food to be brilliant, and what makes the experience good is everything else. We should expect a BMW sports car to be brillijanr to drive but what is most important is our emotional response and how it makes us feel. And the fact that a lot of people on here are having a negative responses to the new Z4 I don’t see as a short coming on their part, I see it as a design failure and BMW’s inability to evolve a design while keeping it fresh, which lets face it is probably far harder to do than create a clean sheet design.
Any way, it will probably look amazing in the flesh
I think one of the obvious design differences between the E85, E89 and G29 is the side profile.
The E85/E89 have a line the sweeps up from the headlights across the wing back down across the door through the door handle, and then back up over the rear panel, a bit like this: ~
The G29 side profile is a line that rises from the front headlights right along the side to the rear. I think this gives it a much more aggressive stance, which is different. It’s a new design language... maybe that’s why it’s code starts with a G and not an E...
The E85/E89 have a line the sweeps up from the headlights across the wing back down across the door through the door handle, and then back up over the rear panel, a bit like this: ~
The G29 side profile is a line that rises from the front headlights right along the side to the rear. I think this gives it a much more aggressive stance, which is different. It’s a new design language... maybe that’s why it’s code starts with a G and not an E...
Tricky Dicky
Member
i agree , i've seen a lot of Shmee's vids , I find him informative and straight talking , if I wanted a comment on a car he is one of the Folks I'd listen toTitanTim said:Do people find the likes of Schmee and MrJWW annoying because they are basically filthy rich and can afford anything they want?
Good luck to them I say, at least they have interesting content and don't come across as amateurs as most, the only one that does annoy me is Seb Delaney as he comes across as freeloading bum living off the back of his parents in Monaco.
Tim.
Tricky Dicky
Member
When I saw the Concept I thought wow , what a stunner, what a shame it did not carry over into the production car , a really watered down version in my opinion , the back looks ok but the front looks like a slightly tweaked typical BMW front , the concept seemed lower and more agressive, the prod car seems higher and more like a box . IMOi the E89 is better looking all round , parked up in the street it has more presence than the new Z4 will have , as I said what a shame .it seems looks are less important now .
