Misleading info from AP racing UK? Or I'm I wrong?

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Franzino

Active member
I have send this email to AP racing UK

Hi, I have a BMW Z4M with a full AP racing kit on the car (fitted for track days). The brake pads that are now fitted are the Pagid Blue (RS 4-2). It's time to change them into a fresh set. When driving on the street they squeal a lot. They told me that the Pagid RS 4-2 should be silent. So how can I reduce this squealing? Are there anti-squeal shims available for using the Pagid RS 4-2 on AP Racing calipers? Also, could I use copper grease on the back of the brake pads to reduce braking noise? Is it okay to use copper grease in combination with AP calipers? Some people say that you can not use copper grease on brake pads with AP calipers, because this will damage the seals and metal. Is this true?
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The reply from AP was the following
Dear Sir BMW Z4M AP Racings UK factory produced front brake kit # CP5575-1010.
Using CP5570 6-pot caliper that uses 2off Alun bolts to retain the brake pads: -
Uses pad family # CP5070D54

Caliper type can be verified from web link: http://www.apracing.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=2763

You might find that the Pagid pads are only 51mm deep across the braking face and not the 54mm that the disc is designed for. If so then that won’t help brake noise!

If you want a road pad that works well on the track then use APR pad # CP5070D51-APF404.

Copper slip if used sparingly won’t affect the CP5575 caliper seals because they are not exposed to the pads back plate. but It isn’t the best method to cure pad squeal.

We do list a squeal shim that cam be stuck on top a back plate. Shim # CP3558-35 but at £8.00 each they are expensive. Because the shim is a sandwich of steel, rubber and adhesive they don’t survive track temperatures!
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So they are saying that Pagid pads are not 100% designed for use with AP calipers & discs? First time I heard this...

My reply
Is the APR pad #CP5070D51-APF404 exactly the same pad as the Ferodo DS2500? The Ferodo DS2500 are the pads that are deliverd with my AP racing kit when I ordered new. I never fitted them, because other AP racing user adviced me not to this, because in their opinion the DS2500 does not preform very well on track days.
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The short reply from AP
No
APF404 is our own material and is NOT the same as DS2500, similar to that would be APF403!
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Now I'm confused; they are saying that similar to the APF403 would be the Ferodo DS2500? On the AP website it is stated that APF403 is a general competition pad...and the Ferodo DS2500 is far from a competition pad.

On the AP website it is stated the following:
• APF403 - General Competition Pad. Not suitable for road use. Easy to bed, predictable and repeatable performance with good bite & friction. Consider where Raybestos ST41 / ST43, Ferodo DS3000 or 4003 are currently used.

• APF404 - Excellent High Performance Road and Track pad. Consistent performance, low wear, disc friendly, low noise, low dust, low fade, good feel. Consider where Ferodo DS2500, Pagid Blue RS4-2, Pagid RS421 or Carbo-Tech XP10 are currently used.

When I ordered my AP racing Z4M kit it was stated on the AP website that the APF404 brake pads would be included. When I received my kit there was a set of Ferodo DS2500 with them. I always thought that APF404 is a AP branded Ferodo DS2500. I'm I wrong?
 
i have a set of apf404 and was told the same they are APs version of Pagid blue, this is why i recommended them as another option in your other post.....

the APf404 pad has never been on my particular car(edit; you reminded me, i used these for a trip to simpson to clean off rough deposits) but the m3 at SDCC has them on and his car braked as well as my pagid pads but seems to have the same "characteristics", he tracked ALL day with me and never once did they fade ect ect

Ap told me the 403 is the ds2500 equivalent.... if your kit came with ds2500 they send you the wrong pads, you should demand free apf404 pads which are very good in my experience....
 
Beedub said:
i have a set of apf404 and was told the same they are APs version of Pagid blue, this is why i recommended them as another option in your other post.....

the APf404 pad has never been on my particular car but the m3 at SDCC has them on and his car braked as well as my pagid pads but seems to have the same "characteristics", he tracked ALL day with me and never once did they fade ect ect

Ap told me the 403 is the ds2500 equivalent.... if your kit came with ds2500 they send you the wrong pads, you should demand free apf404 pads which are very good im my experience....
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How can the lesser Ferodo DS2500 be a general Competition Pad that is not suitable for road use? This is the info that is stated about APF403 on the AP website.
Ferodo ds2500 should be APF404; a road & track pad.... Like they say on the AP website. I always thought APF404 were Ferodo dS 2500.

In the past you said this about APF404; you did not like them...
one thing i will say is for god sake UPGRADE from the APF404 pads that come with the kits, i put these pads on for a trip to simpson to clean off transfer layer from my pagids on the rotors, wow they really suck, by the time i arrived @ simpson they were smoking heavily.....You can order the kits with pagids, pay the extra and do it right from the off......
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pagid blue im using... expensive but much better than ds2500 and APF404 (ap's rebranded ds2500)
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after much research is found the APF404/ds2500 not suitable for track or hard road use, they are very similar to the stock pad just hold out alittle better.... they do however have excellent manners for road use..... The ds2500 cant compare to the pagids, the APf404 may take SOME track use but will defaintly melt pretty quickly...
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initial research basically searching the internet everyone said the APF404s were crap, after trying them on another car, admittedly not mine for prolonged use, (a blast on these unbedded was silly and gave me incorrect info) i didnt see any issue with them and they were used all day, ive learned some things, dont believe what everyone says on the internet and try things for yourself for one and for the best use the companies advice, if AP themselves are telling you the apf404 is a pagid blue then it is i guess.....

i have some apf404 here that came with my the basic AP BBk, i havent tried them bedded but when my blues run down i certainly will drop them in and properly bed them in and use them....

if your blues make noise.... and you dont like that... simple dont buy them???? try something else.... try the apf 404, if AP say they are good enough for the track listen to them and try them......

incidently my blues are silent on road but get nosier as they get really hot on the track.... do i care??? not in the slightest... why?? well its part of the compromise you make with these large brake kits...
 
what exactly do you want from your pads??? it seems you want EVERYTHING from one set of pads, its time to get real and realise these BBKs are compromised themselfs imo.....

they dont work well from cold, they tend to be noiser, they cost more to run, they require rebuilds, the list goes on.....

wy dont you work out what you want from your pads, call pagid or AP and ask them manufacturers?? sometimes its the best bet as Everyone has an opinion....

from research, the apf404 are crap, from actual on track experience, they didnt feel any better or worse the my blues.....

Admittedly i slammed them after i used them to clean off my rotors but looking back that was a dumbass thing to do as the pads werent bedded, i just drove the car hard with fresh pads to clean off the rotors then took them off, which gave me a completely skewed view already fueled by my internet searching.... i look forward to putting them on in due course and properly bedding them to see what they are like on my high power vehicle...
 
I believe the website from AP as they say that APF404 is the same type as Pagid Blue... I don't believe the guy from AP who send me the email saying Ferodo DS2500 is similar to APF403 (= general competition pad, not suitable for road use).
 
Franzino said:
I believe the website from AP as they say that APF404 is the same type as Pagid Blue... I don't believe the guy from AP who send me the email saying Ferodo DS2500 is similar to APF403 (= general competition pad, not suitable for road use).
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again.... what do you want from your pad???
 
Beedub said:
Franzino said:
I believe the website from AP as they say that APF404 is the same type as Pagid Blue... I don't believe the guy from AP who send me the email saying Ferodo DS2500 is similar to APF403 (= general competition pad, not suitable for road use).
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again.... what do you want from your pad???
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What I really want from a pad does not exist... :oops:
On a street car that also comes on a track, the pads will always be a compromise if you want something that works in both cases. I know that! I'm just looking for the best compromise...and that's why I want to try a different set of pads in the future...

SO the point of this thread was to find out if APF404 is really some kind of Ferodo DS2500...yes or no? The AP website and the internet says YES, the AP guy say NO. Who's right and who to believe? I want to know for sure what I'm buying, because I don't want to buy a rebranded Ferodo ds2500. I know for a fact, that the ds2500 does not preform well with AP brakes on a track.
To repeat myself; because it is stated on the AP website that APF404 is the same type as ds2500. I found it misleading that the AP tech guy emailed me and said it was not the case. In his eyes ds2500 is a high performance track pad that is rated higher then APF404.. It's common knowledge that the ds2500 is a street and road pad that's not rated higher then Pagid RS4-2.

Here are some different brake pads from AP own brand as stated on the AP website (I don't see any mention of ds2500 with APF403)
APF 402
Competition Pad for Circuit and Rally use.Not suitable for road use. Higher friction than 401, rising torque, good release, little or no fade. Should be considered where Project Mu H19, PFC #05, Raybestos ST43, Ferodo DS2.11, Mintex F6R or F4R are currently used.

APF 403
General Competiition pad. Not suitable for road use. Easy to bed, predictable and repleatable performance with good bite and friction. Consider where Raybestos ST41/ST43, Ferodo DS3000 or 4003 are currenlty used.

APF 404
Excellent high Performance Road and Track pad. Consistant performance, low wear, disc friendly, low noise, low dust, low fade, good feel. Consider where Ferodo DS2500, Pagid RS4-2, Pagid RS421 or Carbo- Tech XP10 are currently used.

APF 405
Suitable for High Performance Road, Track and Lighweight circuit cars. Consistant performance, disc friendly, low noise, good feel. Consider wehere Pagid RS 4-2, 4-4, Ferodo DS2500 are currently used.
 
Mystery solved; I received a email from AP
 
Apologies
APF405   is very similar to DS2500
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Like I tought, the guy made a mistake and Ferdodo DS 2500 is not similar to APF403. Makes perfect sense!
 
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