Heel 'n' Toe in the Z4M..

[pHilli0]

Been trying to improve my H and T technique. I usually wear really thin narrow shoes when driving the M, as I figured they are best for feedback and pedal modulation. Today I went out in an old pair of Nike trainers that are a far bit wider, and suddenly my technique seems better, or actually maybe its worse, but I seem to find the spot where I could brake at a constant rate and blip for each of the downshifts. My consinstency seemed better than usual and less re positioning my foot. I am adopting this: keep your foot square to the accelerator, heel on the floor during acceleration, lift toes off and point toes left over the brake pedal catching it about a third of the pedal surface, then roll the foot right to blip. Then straighten the toes to be square on the accelerator for the exit. Heel stays on the floor the whole time.

Dave, Tom, anyone else who has had an E30, how do you find H n T in the Z4M compared to the E30? I have previously seen on the forum people say the Z4 is a bit of a pig to H n T easily. is that due to pedal spacing or what?

 

[just-right]

I found my E46 a little bit easier to heel and toe. My shoe size is a bit larger than average so most of the time I end up using the outside of the shoe rather than the heel in the Z4M. At low braking pressure the sport button makes things a bit easier as well.

 

[TomK]

I don't find it an issue at all in the M, I love it, feels absolutely fine for me, it's a subjective thing though I'm sure. I prefer slimmer shoes, but don't find any much of a problem.
I found the E30 to be pretty similar, though to be fair that was the last thing I was concentrating on I haven't driven it much yet.
My technique though sounds quite different to yours. I'm probably more square to the brake and the heel definitely moves towards the accelerator for the rolling of the foot and blip. I think! I've never videoed it.

 

[Anonymous]

Get a pair of puma driving trainers or sparco race boots
That's what I use if going to have fun
As I find can trip over pedal otherwise

 

[Fishy Dave]

Good to hear that you're practicing Phil I find the Z4 tricky to heel and toe smoothly on the road due to how over assisted the brakes are. Fine when driving hard on the track though and better since changing the pads to the less strong ebc blues. The E30 is one of the easiest cars for h and t, nice pedal positioning, cable throttle and mediocre brakes.

 

[pHilli0]

I don't find it an issue at all in the M, I love it, feels absolutely fine for me, it's a subjective thing though I'm sure. I prefer slimmer shoes, but don't find any much of a problem.
I found the E30 to be pretty similar, though to be fair that was the last thing I was concentrating on I haven't driven it much yet.
My technique though sounds quite different to yours. I'm probably more square to the brake and the heel definitely moves towards the accelerator for the rolling of the foot and blip. I think! I've never videoed it.

Ah good to hear Your technique sounds like the proper way to do it, I find it means having to move the foot more and that means I am worse at keeping the braking pressure consistent. I think I just need more practice and settle on which ever way is most comfortable.
The first time in the E30 I was learning the car. I did notice that the throttle response is less instant and less rev happy so I noticed not H and Ting meant I was waiting for the revs to build above 2k after each gear shift, hence the need to get this technique nailed else I will be giving away pace everywhere throughout the lap.

 

[pHilli0]

Good to hear that you're practicing Phil I find the Z4 tricky to heel and toe smoothly on the road due to how over assisted the brakes are. Fine when driving hard on the track though and better since changing the pads to the less strong ebc blues. The E30 is one of the easiest cars for h and t, nice pedal positioning, cable throttle and mediocre brakes.

Thanks Dave! Glad you find the E30 so easy, gives me hope that I can master it. Once H and T is natural it's onto left foot braking. I have a C350e as my daily. It's an auto and I have been left foot braking to and from work the last week every day. The electronics are a total pain though, as soon as the break is pressed the throttle seems to go into sleep mode and when I lean on it it takes a second to wake up. It doesn't give any advantage, but in the E30 I can see how being able to brake and accelerate quickly mid corner will be a big advantage.

One thought, if the car is entering oversteer is it viable to dab the break with the left foot and correct this? Currently I am lifting off a little to bring the rear wheels back into grip and steering into the slide to correct it. I wonder if I can leave the throttle applied a little and dab the brake.

 

[petrolhead88]

I'm size 10 so find H&T a doddle in most cars. The Z4M is no exception, although I've noticed it's much easier to be accurate in Sports mode.
In normal mode I find my blips falling a few hundred rpm short of the perfect rev match.

In terms of technique I have my right foot at a 45 degree angle pointing towards the centre of the car.

 

[pHilli0]

I'm size 10 so find H&T a doddle in most cars. The Z4M is no exception, although I've noticed it's much easier to be accurate in Sports mode.
In normal mode I find my blips falling a few hundred rpm short of the perfect rev match.

In terms of technique I have my right foot at a 45 degree angle pointing towards the centre of the car.

Thanks I am a size 11, so foot size isn't a problem here either lol. I believe that best describes my angle, 45 degree towards the brake pedal, and then roll onto the throttle for the blip.

 

[Paulwirral]

Get a pair of puma driving trainers or sparco race boots
That's what I use if going to have fun
As I find can trip over pedal otherwise

Puma speed cats , depending on what size you are for availability , or the sparco equivalent, I'm pretty sure they are the same shoe , Google it or search on pistonheads for puma speedcats , I've always worn them but they now come from Germany .
I learnt from driving s**t old cars that didn't tick over without cutting out , but I'm 51 and learnt with knackered Weber carbs :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Get a pair of puma driving trainers or sparco race boots
That's what I use if going to have fun
As I find can trip over pedal otherwise

Puma speed cats , depending on what size you are for availability , or the sparco equivalent, I'm pretty sure they are the same shoe , Google it or search on pistonheads for puma speedcats , I've always worn them but they now come from Germany .
I learnt from driving s**t old cars that didn't tick over without cutting out , but I'm 51 and learnt with knackered Weber carbs :lol:

Hahahh great for driving though,)

 

[Fishy Dave]

One thought, if the car is entering oversteer is it viable to dab the break with the left foot and correct this? Currently I am lifting off a little to bring the rear wheels back into grip and steering into the slide to correct it. I wonder if I can leave the throttle applied a little and dab the brake.

Thats a maybe... Hard to say as it will depend on how the car enters oversteer, through power, lifting off or braking. Lifting a little bit whilst maintaining a balanced throttle and opposite lock is a good way of controlling a slide without losing too much momentum. Too much of a lift or too much throttle can see you spin one way or other so you are doing the right thing by practising. The drift days at Oulton or a Caterham drift day at Donington are really worth while too as the sliding takes place at lower speeds.
Personally I dont left foot brake very often and as youve found a lot of modern cars dont like throttle overlap.

 

[paulgs1000]

I'm size 10 so find H&T a doddle in most cars. The Z4M is no exception, although I've noticed it's much easier to be accurate in Sports mode.
In normal mode I find my blips falling a few hundred rpm short of the perfect rev match.

In terms of technique I have my right foot at a 45 degree angle pointing towards the centre of the car.

<This Much easier in Sports mode to bring revs up to match. Bought some Piloti shoes and they have a slightly wider sole to aid heel and toeing - don't find them much better than my 'normal' trainers but the curved heel make them much more comfortable and easier to manipulate the foot around for H&T.

 

[Paulwirral]

One thought, if the car is entering oversteer is it viable to dab the break with the left foot and correct this? Currently I am lifting off a little to bring the rear wheels back into grip and steering into the slide to correct it. I wonder if I can leave the throttle applied a little and dab the brake.

Thats a maybe... Hard to say as it will depend on how the car enters oversteer, through power, lifting off or braking. Lifting a little bit whilst maintaining a balanced throttle and opposite lock is a good way of controlling a slide without losing too much momentum. Too much of a lift or too much throttle can see you spin one way or other so you are doing the right thing by practising. The drift days at Oulton or a Caterham drift day at Donington are really worth while too as the sliding takes place at lower speeds.
Personally I dont left foot brake very often and as youve found a lot of modern cars dont like throttle overlap.

I've noticed the overlap on a few cars , when I had my s4 re mapped the guy mapped it out , it was a much better car to drive afterwards . I've no idea if this is possible with bmws though , would any of the tech gurus know ?

 

[Fishy Dave]

The Z4 seems fine with brake and throttle together, I think it was Phils Mercedes that didnt like it.

 

[abar121]

I would agree that the over servoe'd brakes make it tricky to do smoothly on the road.

 

[BMWZ4MC]

I found the spacing of the throttle and brake pedals was not conducive with reliable heel-and-toe, so I made this:



The steel rule is held in place by the pedal cover so it can all be removed without leaving any damage to the pedals.



As said above, the over-servoed brakes make heel-and-toe more difficult when braking at a sensible rate on the road, but sport mode helps enormously.

As for technique, here's how I heel-and-toe (barefoot for clarity....ok, it was barefoot or flip flops!):

[youtube]Fut_a3axt-4[/youtube]

Despite being a rental (and therefore the fastest car in the world), I had to double declutch as the synchromesh in a Holden Barina doesn't allow enthusiastic down shifts!

This was the road:



Crying out for a proper car!

 

[pHilli0]

Anyone got links to some pedal covers? I think that might be a good option.

 

[abar121]

I just used a generic black alloy 'M' set from ebay China. It cost buttons tbh and looks pretty stock.

I only used the throttle cover though, as I wanted to raise the throttle pedal a little. Perfect now.

Edit: like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Accelerator-Brake-Clutch-Pedal-E36-E46-E60-E87-E88-E90-E92-Z3-Z4-M3-M5-RHD-/262715527315