'Fast' cruise/convoy leaders beware

mmm-five

mmm-five

Lifer
 Liverpool
Site Supporter
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2009/November/nov1909-speeding-penalty-for-leading-rideout/

Basically it's saying that if you're over the speed limit (even slightly) which causes anyone in the group to speed too then you can be prosecuted to the same extent as the person who is speeding heavily over the limit. And if that person is involved in an accident, then you can also be held culpable.

As the leader it it your responsibility to ensure you don't drive in a manner that would cause the following party to have to do something unlawful to catch up.

However, the leader has to be charged with a road offence before that offence can be 'upgraded' to the same offence as the following driver. If the leader has kept to the limit and not done anything unlawful (or there is no evidence of this) then the courts cannot censure them any more as they won't be at court with the accused anyway.
 
mmm-five said:
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2009/November/nov1909-speeding-penalty-for-leading-rideout/

Basically it's saying that if you're over the speed limit (even slightly) which causes anyone in the group to speed too then you can be prosecuted to the same extent as the person who is speeding heavily over the limit. And if that person is involved in an accident, then you can also be held culpable.
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Works well for bikers imho.

Very rarely do you see a group of say 5 cars all tear arsing along overtaking one after the other, while in summer on 'biker' roads you often get 5-10 bikers all driving and trying to 'keep up' with the group... first lot get through fine, but more often than not some loonies at the back do heroic retarded overtakes to keep with the group.

Personally I've never seen cars on runs out driving like this. If you get stuck then you stay stuck. Ultimately bikers should do this, and plenty probably do, but there are some who are nobbers and do daft stuff.

I guess the reality is, big groups of cars out on runs are complemented with drivers who likely go out like this rarely anyway (so are not in a rush to keep in the group etc), and large groups are rare too, so the problem really is significantly less apparent.


All said and done, if the Plod threw the book at the people doing the stupid stuff irrespective of the person at the front (afterall, they may just be making safe progress and prevailing traffic/conditions for the people at the back may be causing them to get left behind and do stupid stuff), then it wouldn't be a big issue. But any given summers evening/weekend I can just go for a one hour drive and see loads of examples of this retarded behaviour.
Stamping it out when seen is what is needed imho, trying to come down harder on the fellow at the front if they are driving sensibly seems a bit unfair if it's idiots down the line.

Everyone should drive their own drive on the road... :) Those who can't are the ones who need books throwing at them :D

If others get aggrevated by you having more favourable conditions and moving ahead, then how are you to be responsible for others?

I guess this is a good thing ultimately because it means those going out riding will prefer not to have those who are idiots tag along with them! And idiots out riding on their own won't tend to drive so badly (i'd hope)

Dave
 
This doesn't make any sense to me at all. If I'm leading a cruise and adhering to the speed limit, how can they possibly prosecute me for what people are doing behind me? :?
 
spokey said:
This doesn't make any sense to me at all. If I'm leading a cruise and adhering to the speed limit, how can they possibly prosecute me for what people are doing behind me? :?
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They cant.
If you WERE speeding tho, they can.

But personally I think it's bollox, because if you're doing 80 on a motorway, and some guy comes teararsing up behind you, then stacks it, you can't be prosicuted for that - which is effectively the same.
As a cruise leader, you're in no way responsible for anyone elses driving and if they CHOOSE to break the law, rather than bow out of the cruise, then it's the own choice - you're not forcing them to do anything!

I reckon you appeal this and it'll get quashed.
 
Mr Whippy said:
Works well for bikers imho.

Personally I've never seen cars on runs out driving like this. If you get stuck then you stay stuck. Ultimately bikers should do this, and plenty probably do, but there are some who are nobbers and do daft stuff.
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Act like a twat in any of the bike rideouts I've beenwith, from three different forums, and you're not invited back - simple as.
I've also seen this ALOT with cars from modified forums, specifically saxo and astras.

Not saying there aren't twohats on bikes, as there are, but they exist in cars too!
 
sk93 said:
Mr Whippy said:
Works well for bikers imho.

Personally I've never seen cars on runs out driving like this. If you get stuck then you stay stuck. Ultimately bikers should do this, and plenty probably do, but there are some who are nobbers and do daft stuff.
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Act like a twat in any of the bike rideouts I've beenwith, from three different forums, and you're not invited back - simple as.
I've also seen this ALOT with cars from modified forums, specifically saxo and astras.

Not saying there aren't twohats on bikes, as there are, but they exist in cars too!
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Problem is the dumb behaviour is often by the person at the back, so no one watching them :(

I think cars do the same, but again, it's just so rare to see a whole load of cars tear arsing it around on a summers weekend playing keep up. I've maybe seen it once or twice ever, and there seems to be no 'driver' roads either. Bikes on the other hand, well, there are biker roads near biker pubs, and if you just happen to be on one then you probably see many groups flying past on a single journey on a nice weekend.

So, problem exists in every transport method, problem is that bikers are the ones doing it most often, so ergo there are more nobbers doing it at any given point in time, and so it ends up that those one in one hundred idiots on a run out pop up more often with the bikers!


Either way, I think it's a good initiative *however* I do think that when a law exists that could already be applied to sort this problem, that it should be, and in this case it appears that it isn't being applied effectively already to do the same job. That is pretty bad imho. If bad driving/riding is going on, then DWDCAT and DD already exist to be able to prosecute idiots on the roads!

Dave
 
Interesting situation of upgrading the leaders penalty if he/she too is separately convicted of a traffic offence. Not sure I agree with it, but do understand the sentiment. In this case a leader doing 85 in a 60 zone was bound to cause the followers to try to replicate (human nature, peer group pressure, etc.) and in this case go over his speed.

As a comment I think whatever speed a cruise leader goes at the followers will at some point have to exceed due to the concertina effect of passing other cars if they are following and not independantly driving a given and known route. The further back in the line the greater the effect and no doubt catch up speed.

Therefore if a leader holds say bang on 50mph on a 50mph road and passes a car doing 40mph then followers are likely to have to hold considerably above 50mph to catch up and tail enders even more, if they are in any way delayed in passing the slower car, which reality of windy UK roads makes it a near certainty.

That poses a challenge to leaders of driving like a granny, keeping to small groups or having known routes or catch points.
 
Thank goodness I don't speak the language then in case I get stopped.

So - are you going to send me the latest TomTom ITNs then?
 
cj10jeeper said:
Interesting situation of upgrading the leaders penalty if he/she too is separately convicted of a traffic offence. Not sure I agree with it, but do understand the sentiment. In this case a leader doing 85 in a 60 zone was bound to cause the followers to try to replicate (human nature, peer group pressure, etc.) and in this case go over his speed.

As a comment I think whatever speed a cruise leader goes at the followers will at some point have to exceed due to the concertina effect of passing other cars if they are following and not independantly driving a given and known route. The further back in the line the greater the effect and no doubt catch up speed.

Therefore if a leader holds say bang on 50mph on a 50mph road and passes a car doing 40mph then followers are likely to have to hold considerably above 50mph to catch up and tail enders even more, if they are in any way delayed in passing the slower car, which reality of windy UK roads makes it a near certainty.

That poses a challenge to leaders of driving like a granny, keeping to small groups or having known routes or catch points.
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The thing is, I still think it's all down to those following to drive their own drive.

If the run is well organised and contains good minded people, then no silly behaviour should happen further down the line.

I'm not condoning speeding, but lets be honest, bikes can go fast and do it safely. It's only a problem when the riders feel pressure they make bad judgements. However, that isn't to say that the pressure borne isn't just in their head. If they want to stay legal or stay alive, or not fall off, they know what they have to do.


Personally if I were organising a run out, I would be happy to wait 5 minutes at the end of every section at junctions for others to catch up or normal traffic filter out. 10 minutes even, if everyone had a safe and fun time!

It really is just a few individuals who are very bad drivers/riders who feel the need to 'keep up'... but that kind of attitude just doesn't mix with roads unless you are highly trained, but even Plod pursuit drivers can have issues with red mist and they do this actively as a job! Easier to just leave ego at home and have good safe fun :)

Dave
 
pvr said:
Thank goodness I don't speak the language then in case I get stopped.

So - are you going to send me the latest TomTom ITNs then?
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Of course just sorting now and will send to you tomorrow, just wondering if we should pop past Winstons old place on our way down it's quite a nice road, but does mean going through Westerham.
 
I see, yes - probably will lose half the people after the third roundabout ...

Will need a TomTom driver every second car :D
 
having been the leader on a few drives I think you have to try to keep the speeds down especially on A roads where it would be possible to exceed the speed limit by a considerable amount. On the B road twisties it's possible to drive within the legal limit but still have a lot of fun keeping up a brisk pace.
Other forum drives I've been on have been well led and nobody has acted like a tool- so far. :)
 
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