E91 - Comments??

G

Greeno

Active member
 St ives, Cambs.
Folks,

after nearly 5 years of ownership and 5 years of a lot of lurking round here the end of Z ownership is in sight.

I cant fit the Mrs and the dog in the Z and cant justify 2 cars.

looking at a 320d or a 318d touring 2010/11 vintage.

I have had a cruise round e90post and bimmerforums. almost too much information and all buried in pages of chat.

the only thing i can see is that there has been an issue with timing belt failure (N47 engine). what the chances of this happening... always hard to tell as everyone shounts when something is wrong but rarely when something is great.

Want to stay with BMW.

Any words of wisdom (apart from ditch the Mrs/dog and/or both..!)?

Cheers
Greeno
 
Great car for doing it all but i had the 330d remapped so bit more pokey 8)
Yeah the belt being in a bad position at the rear of engine indicates a non service item but in reality they are failing pretty regularly by all accounts :wink:
mileage covered no guarantee either as its effected many low milers also .
I actually preferred our 3 tourer to a previous 5 . Obviously not as spacious but it rode & handled better
What budget ?
 
cheers guys.

i really wanted to stay with BMW but it is a bit of an issue. so not really sure where to go now...

I'll end up turning into Andysat, worrying every time i hear a slightly strange noise that the belt is on the out.

there arent many 320 petrols around and they are all older or a bit more pokey than i wanted.
 
It's a chain, not a belt and is therefore not a standard service item.

Failures are generally at over 150k, and access is only possible to service it by removing the gearbox etc. ie it's expensive to do, but if I had a high-mile E9x N47 and the clutch or gearbox needed work, I'd get the cam drive chain replaced at the same time. Any component on any car can fail at low miles, or any other time: it's called failure scatter rates and is why we have a warranty from new to catch the early failure scatter. Aim for a low mileage example (ie under say 60k) with a full service history and get a warranty on it. If you go for a warranty, it MUST have a complete, correct service history.....otherwise the warranty is pointless.

E91 is a decent car, the 320d version pulls well and rides well if a bit crashy in Msport guise. Your budget is key as to what you will get. Avoid the 318d: it's too slow and will frustrate you. Avoid the petrols: too slow in 2.0 form, and thirsty in others and rare too as no-one bought them new and for good reason: the 320d is a very fine all-rounder and if more pace was required, they'd go 325/330d.

If you think the N47 has issues, checkout the issues with VAG's 2.0TDi.....I have a friend with an 80k-miles 2008 A4 TDi which is effectively trashed (turbo, DPF, EGR), and that''s before his oil pump fails later on. He'll drive it until it does and scrap it: he's a car mechanic and cannot fix the issues however hard he tries.

There is also an issue with clutch vibration (juddering) on many E9x models. If you go manual, really give the clutch a hard workout with some hill starts both hot and cold (if possible) as a new DMF is costly and not covered by warranty but the modified BMW units are much better and less prone to the judders. Some cars will have had their DMF's upgraded by BMW under warranty, others are unaffected, but this can really spoil the image of the car if the car is shaking like it's inside a tornado whilst you're trying to carefully negotiate an awkward parking gap etc. The current DMF's being used are a massive improvement: our 118d is faultless.

Oh, and if you think the DMF concern is too much, just about every car out there has one (petrol and diesel), and all manufacturers are having their difficulties. It's just that some owners think 'it's normal' so it doesn't get reported, or are fobbed-off by dealers. BMW have now put their hands up and admitted there is an issue on some, but not all, cars and were good with warranty claims in the end.

Good luck, and if in doubt, have someone who REALLY knows their way round E9x's to go with you. I'd have an N47 E9x again any day. Be careful with chipping, though, as the standard brakes are at their limit at around 200hp (D3 levels of power, the D3BT at 214hp received 330i/d brakes to cope), and the DMF is always a weak point on the manuals, and more power through them is a baaaad idea unless you fancy a huge bill.
 
I had an e90 320d and an earlier e90 318d. As previously stated the 318d was too slow so I wouldn't touch it.

I'm actually on my third N47 equipped BMW and i've never had a problem with any of them. I've been on e90post for years and the timing chain is a reported problem but in my opinion it's blown out of all proportion lately due to people buying high mileage cars with a patchy service history and no warranty. It's usually people who know nothing and buy a cheapish BMW under the belief that anything German is bomb proof. Truth is it's not so get a warranty and you'll have no worries. The sub 60k miles and full history is only for BMW warranty but a 3rd party warranty can still be had if the car doesn't meet that criteria.

I've experienced the judder but it was the clutch delay valve rather than the DMF, this is usually the problem. This can be fixed on your drive for nothing. There was a spate of the Mitsubishi turbos going on 320d's at around 70k miles a while back but i've not heard about any going for a while so it could have just been a bad batch on early cars (not read a report of any LCI cars having the issue).

The 320d is a good package. Decent performance and pretty cheap to run. I'd say the few (but potentially large) problems have already been covered above. The only other thing worth checking when you look at any is the inside of the front tires. For some reason these seem to wear terribly on all e90s and it's easy to miss when buying a used one.

It's worth pushing the budget a little if possible and seeking out a D3 as previously owned by 2alpsade. Cost of ownership will probably work out slightly less over time as it will hold value well. They are a fantastic medium between the 320d and the 330d although the 330d is also a stonker and probably one of the most reliable engines BMW have ever produced.
 
Cheers guys :thumbsup:

much appreciated.

Spot on the kind of info i was after.

the package on the 318d was perfect but i think we will hold out 320d.

we dont have an urgency for it so we can hold out for the right combo.

Mowflow, - much appreciated for your insight. gives me a lot of reassurance. kinf od money we are looking at spending should give us a low miler 2010/11. might go start lurking over in e90post.

Although i dont post much i will kind of miss this place.
 
I wouldn't argue with anything MOWFLOW said except for this....

Mowflow said:
I've experienced the judder but it was the clutch delay valve rather than the DMF, this is usually the problem.
Click to expand...

Engineering and dynamics (vibration) background here, and a full-on understanding of this system as its been in use for donkeys years and is known for problems, so bear with this short explanation...and I know there has been plenty of uneducated rambling on this elsewhere, but that is a problem with forums and incorrect info, sadly :|

The CDV is only in the system to prevent lash into the DMF if the clutch is released rapidly and/or without control. The CDV slows the fluid flow on clutch release via its restricting orifice, hence automatically reduces the lash in the system, gives a 100% repeatable clutch release rate and prevents accidental (or careless) damage to the DMF. Removing a CDV valve whilst being the 'manly' thing to do, is in effect putting your DMF at risk if you make an error with your clutch control. It has NO effect on clutch judder per se, only its apparent severity. Clutch judder is a result of a high and hot spots due to non-flatness and localised heating on the clutch plates. The hot spot comes from local heating friction during clutch engagement, and may be (for example instance) a slight inbuilt and within tolerance misalignment between plates on take-up (there is after all, a 360degree arc of take-up, so a potential 1 in 360 chance of matching high and hot spots at instant of drive take-up). The high and hot spot interaction results in a grab-release-grab-release of the DMF drive and friction plates, and this causes the DMF drive springs to oscillate at their undamped natural frequency (imagine fixing a rope at one end and flicking the other repeatedly and seeing the waves it sets up). That shakes the car to buggery as the drive is taken up and released in pulses..... The undamped oscillation then causes the springs to clatter their guides and housing and reduces the lifespan of the springs, and can crack the casing and/or flywheel itself...which is a right-off of the DMF. If you remove the CDV on a DMF with a minor issue, you may improve the engagement slightly as the plates will come together faster, and any fluctuations pass more quickly (basic dynamics) but still exist. That is masking, not fixing the fault.

Friend of mine works as a main dealer service manager. He's lost count of the number of DMF's that they get in with 'slight judders' and on opening the joint, bits of DMF fall out of the bell housing. I recently had in my hands a 9k-miles old DMF which had been run without a CDV. It was trashed. £1200 again please, sir, for the benefit of giving you back your drive. Leave the CDV in: BMW put it there for a bloody good reason. If the clutch judders, it has a DMF problem. Full stop.

From a personal POV, I would never buy any used car from any manufacturer where I thought the CDV may have been removed by a previous owner unless the DMF had been exchanged just prior to my purchase.
 
I had an E90 320d m sport (177bhp start stop). Loved it. Very reliable. Ride was quite crashy with the 18" wheels and suspension set-up.

If you can afford, try get the 184bhp engine in facelift guise.

330d auto is sublime to drive but people want silly money for them.
 
I do love this place - I bet this thread is more useful (in the round) than anything you found on e90post :D
 
Sport spec does look great but after having the 520d Sport tourer when i bought our 3 tourer it had to be the 330d & in SE spec :wink:
They drive better & also cost much less to buy so win-win :)

Get a set of 224,s fitted & they look great :thumbsup:

330323_zps7e1c5775.jpg
 
2alpsade said:
I wouldn't argue with anything MOWFLOW said except for this....

Mowflow said:
I've experienced the judder but it was the clutch delay valve rather than the DMF, this is usually the problem.
Click to expand...

Engineering and dynamics (vibration) background here, and a full-on understanding of this system as its been in use for donkeys years and is known for problems, so bear with this short explanation...and I know there has been plenty of uneducated rambling on this elsewhere, but that is a problem with forums and incorrect info, sadly :|

The CDV is only in the system to prevent lash into the DMF if the clutch is released rapidly and/or without control. The CDV slows the fluid flow on clutch release via its restricting orifice, hence automatically reduces the lash in the system, gives a 100% repeatable clutch release rate and prevents accidental (or careless) damage to the DMF. Removing a CDV valve whilst being the 'manly' thing to do, is in effect putting your DMF at risk if you make an error with your clutch control. It has NO effect on clutch judder per se, only its apparent severity. Clutch judder is a result of a high and hot spots due to non-flatness and localised heating on the clutch plates. The hot spot comes from local heating friction during clutch engagement, and may be (for example instance) a slight inbuilt and within tolerance misalignment between plates on take-up (there is after all, a 360degree arc of take-up, so a potential 1 in 360 chance of matching high and hot spots at instant of drive take-up). The high and hot spot interaction results in a grab-release-grab-release of the DMF drive and friction plates, and this causes the DMF drive springs to oscillate at their undamped natural frequency (imagine fixing a rope at one end and flicking the other repeatedly and seeing the waves it sets up). That shakes the car to buggery as the drive is taken up and released in pulses..... The undamped oscillation then causes the springs to clatter their guides and housing and reduces the lifespan of the springs, and can crack the casing and/or flywheel itself...which is a right-off of the DMF. If you remove the CDV on a DMF with a minor issue, you may improve the engagement slightly as the plates will come together faster, and any fluctuations pass more quickly (basic dynamics) but still exist. That is masking, not fixing the fault.

Friend of mine works as a main dealer service manager. He's lost count of the number of DMF's that they get in with 'slight judders' and on opening the joint, bits of DMF fall out of the bell housing. I recently had in my hands a 9k-miles old DMF which had been run without a CDV. It was trashed. £1200 again please, sir, for the benefit of giving you back your drive. Leave the CDV in: BMW put it there for a bloody good reason. If the clutch judders, it has a DMF problem. Full stop.

From a personal POV, I would never buy any used car from any manufacturer where I thought the CDV may have been removed by a previous owner unless the DMF had been exchanged just prior to my purchase.
Click to expand...

Good to know how it works. I sort of knew what the CDV was for, although I was told it was so certain customers in countries which favoured autos didn't destroy the clutch.

My experience has been roughly 200k miles covered in 3 N47s and never replaced a timing chain, turbo or DMF in any of them. I experienced the judder in my 318d but the car went on to cover 60k miles without a grumble. That perhaps proves nothing other than my level of luck.
 
Great reading. thanks guys :thumbsup:

well that is it. Saturday afternoon we found a '10 plate 320d with 30K on the clock, M Sport with an auto box.

traded the z in for peanuts - but you pay for the convenience.

Much to SWMBO displeasure i was proper grumpy all afternoon due to the impending loss.

Pick it up next sat.
 
Go for the 330d. Brilliant engine and economical too. And more pull than the Z. :D
 
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