Carbon sideskirt extensions
- Thread starter dubsesd
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So how do microlight aircraft manage to fly (i.e. lift) at around 65km/h, if aero only kicks in at about 180km/h as you suggest? Are you saying the formula I've quoted does not apply to both lift and downforce?[/quote]
Downforce on 3.8 GT3 is only affected by the front splitter and rear wing at those speeds. What they told me was simple, the resistance of the springs, weight and velocity of the car means that they are only effective at those speeds. not talking about general aero dynamics here of course and I'm sure you're formulae is correct, but and I've heard it from more than one person who does it for a living, all those splitters and wings you see on well prepped ie: factory prepared "road racers" if you like only work at high speeds, the need for ground clearance rendering them useless at lower speeds, nor do they wnt it to be effective as downforce would only slow the car's acceleration whilst grip from wide tyres and the suspension generate sufficuient mechanical grip for the car to be stable. It makes sense to me, look how low a racing car is! It makes no sense for some carbon or plastic bit stuck on a road car to work the same way as it does on a race car.
Downforce on 3.8 GT3 is only affected by the front splitter and rear wing at those speeds. What they told me was simple, the resistance of the springs, weight and velocity of the car means that they are only effective at those speeds. not talking about general aero dynamics here of course and I'm sure you're formulae is correct, but and I've heard it from more than one person who does it for a living, all those splitters and wings you see on well prepped ie: factory prepared "road racers" if you like only work at high speeds, the need for ground clearance rendering them useless at lower speeds, nor do they wnt it to be effective as downforce would only slow the car's acceleration whilst grip from wide tyres and the suspension generate sufficuient mechanical grip for the car to be stable. It makes sense to me, look how low a racing car is! It makes no sense for some carbon or plastic bit stuck on a road car to work the same way as it does on a race car.
ChawenHalo said:
If the splitters and spoilers are fixed and unmovable items on the cars you are talking about and not operated by speed related controls like the rear spoiler on the Porsche Cayman or activated like the DRS on the rear wing of F1 cars, then they will work in accordance with the graph I previously posted. So if the total downforce generated at 180km/hr is, say, 200kgs equivalent, then at 90kms/hr, it will be 50kgs equivalent. I'm not wishing to be confrontational, just referring to the physics which applies.
Markcoopers
Member
So some pics of side skirts and 5 pages on we are into physics….good thread drift chaps, quite impressed. 
So on topic, i too am interested in the make up of these, as the proportions look good and the finish excellent. Go on tell us..please?
So on topic, i too am interested in the make up of these, as the proportions look good and the finish excellent. Go on tell us..please?
Markcoopers
Member
Too true my friend, too true 
exdos said:ChawenHalo said:
If the splitters and spoilers are fixed and unmovable items on the cars you are talking about and not operated by speed related controls like the rear spoiler on the Porsche Cayman or activated like the DRS on the rear wing of F1 cars, then they will work in accordance with the graph I previously posted. So if the total downforce generated at 180km/hr is, say, 200kgs equivalent, then at 90kms/hr, it will be 50kgs equivalent. I'm not wishing to be confrontational, just referring to the physics which applies.
Yes correct, the effect of which (50 kg at 90 mph) is peanuts and makes absolutely no difference to how the car handle vs its mechanical grip. You can't look at these things in isolation.
I'd still them though, looks Fab on the front.
You've previously been discussing this in Kilometres Per Hour and now you've switched my example at 90kms/hr to 90mph which considerably distorts the figures in the example. Yes, aerodynamics which only produces 50kgs equivalent of downforce at 90mph (=144.8kph) will only produce 77.26kgs equivalent downforce at 180kph (= 111.8mph) and that is peanuts on a race car. Out of interest, how much downforce do your DTM engineers reckon they can create from aero parts at 180kms/hr on racecars?ChawenHalo said:exdos said:ChawenHalo said:If the splitters and spoilers are fixed and unmovable items on the cars you are talking about and not operated by speed related controls like the rear spoiler on the Porsche Cayman or activated like the DRS on the rear wing of F1 cars, then they will work in accordance with the graph I previously posted. So if the total downforce generated at 180km/hr is, say, 200kgs equivalent, then at 90kms/hr, it will be 50kgs equivalent. I'm not wishing to be confrontational, just referring to the physics which applies.
Yes correct, the effect of which (50 kg at 90 mph) is peanuts and makes absolutely no difference to how the car handle vs its mechanical grip.
Yes correct, the effect of which (50 kg at 90 mph) is peanuts and makes absolutely no difference to how the car handle vs its mechanical grip.
[/quote][/quote]
You've previously been discussing this in Kilometres Per Hour and now you've switched my example at 90kms/hr to 90mph which considerably distorts the figures in the example. Yes, aerodynamics which only produces 50kgs equivalent of downforce at 90mph (=144.8kph) will only produce 77.26kgs equivalent downforce at 180kph (= 111.8mph) and that is peanuts on a race car. Out of interest, how much downforce do your DTM engineers reckon they can create from aero parts at 180kms/hr on racecars?[/quote]
Yes sorry but whatevever dude, 50 kg at 90 kph is just as meaningless, but 200 kg at 180 kph probably starts to have effect. I understand what you're saying but I think you're wrong. I did ask whether road car tuners or factory aftermarket expensive CF bits had any effect and they just laugh and said NO. No manufacturer will make such claims in fact. And as I said, you can't look at these things under isolation and there is a difference between your theories which I'm sure are correct and the reality of their application in context and all the variables and other factors it involves. When I see a DTM, GT1 or other in the metal (or compound rather) and go, its fairly obvious. And they all tell you that technology transfer is complete balls, road and race cars do not have the same development whatsoever. Any raceteam who also prep "fast road" cars will tell you race parts are not appropriate.
[/quote][/quote]
You've previously been discussing this in Kilometres Per Hour and now you've switched my example at 90kms/hr to 90mph which considerably distorts the figures in the example. Yes, aerodynamics which only produces 50kgs equivalent of downforce at 90mph (=144.8kph) will only produce 77.26kgs equivalent downforce at 180kph (= 111.8mph) and that is peanuts on a race car. Out of interest, how much downforce do your DTM engineers reckon they can create from aero parts at 180kms/hr on racecars?[/quote]
Yes sorry but whatevever dude, 50 kg at 90 kph is just as meaningless, but 200 kg at 180 kph probably starts to have effect. I understand what you're saying but I think you're wrong. I did ask whether road car tuners or factory aftermarket expensive CF bits had any effect and they just laugh and said NO. No manufacturer will make such claims in fact. And as I said, you can't look at these things under isolation and there is a difference between your theories which I'm sure are correct and the reality of their application in context and all the variables and other factors it involves. When I see a DTM, GT1 or other in the metal (or compound rather) and go, its fairly obvious. And they all tell you that technology transfer is complete balls, road and race cars do not have the same development whatsoever. Any raceteam who also prep "fast road" cars will tell you race parts are not appropriate.
ChawenHalo said:
Obviously, a road car needs a few inches of ground clearance for driveability, which prevents them using all the racecar aero-parts, but properly designed front splitters, rear spoilers, flat undertrays and diffusers on road cars will prevent lift, or even produce small amounts of downforce, and will considerably improve handling, especially for those of us (you too) who like to go on track where we can drive at speeds at which aerodynamic effects significantly affect handling.
Have a look at this: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2012/07/03/bf-interview-dtm-driver-joey-hand/ The driver says: "The big thing with the DTM is the downforce, its the first thing you notice about the car. When you get into third and fourth gear corners it has SO MUCH downforce especially from the middle of the car rearward, that’s where you start to feel the comfort." So what speed is a DTM car doing in 3rd gear? Less than 180km/hr I expect.
This isn't my theory, just physics which is put into practice by race teams
Winglets on aircraft stop the air falling off the end of the wing and creating turbulence -- effectively they attach or constrain the laminar flow to the wing. I assume the goal is the same here -- to keep the laminar air flow attached to the rear surface of the car, particularly as it usually all goes wrong around the rotating wheels.Sae said:
Obviously, a road car needs a few inches of ground clearance for driveability, which prevents them using all the racecar aero-parts, but properly designed front splitters, rear spoilers, flat undertrays and diffusers on road cars will prevent lift, or even produce small amounts of downforce, and will considerably improve handling, especially for those of us (you too) who like to go on track where we can drive at speeds at which aerodynamic effects significantly affect handling.
Have a look at this: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2012/07/03/bf-interview-dtm-driver-joey-hand/ The driver says: "The big thing with the DTM is the downforce, its the first thing you notice about the car. When you get into third and fourth gear corners it has SO MUCH downforce especially from the middle of the car rearward, that’s where you start to feel the comfort." So what speed is a DTM car doing in 3rd gear? Less than 180km/hr I expect.
This isn't my theory, just physics which is put into practice by race teams[/quote]
Yes I understand what you're saying but they weigh 1100 kg min and are mm off the ground on racing tyres. Also look at the mad aero on recent Ferraris so that they can do without a picnic bench at the back. Either way I applaud any efforts in that direction just doubt any will make a tangible difference on our road cars but just generate other issues.
Have a look at this: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2012/07/03/bf-interview-dtm-driver-joey-hand/ The driver says: "The big thing with the DTM is the downforce, its the first thing you notice about the car. When you get into third and fourth gear corners it has SO MUCH downforce especially from the middle of the car rearward, that’s where you start to feel the comfort." So what speed is a DTM car doing in 3rd gear? Less than 180km/hr I expect.
This isn't my theory, just physics which is put into practice by race teams
[/quote]Yes I understand what you're saying but they weigh 1100 kg min and are mm off the ground on racing tyres. Also look at the mad aero on recent Ferraris so that they can do without a picnic bench at the back. Either way I applaud any efforts in that direction
just doubt any will make a tangible difference on our road cars but just generate other issues.Almeida1234
Member
I really like these