997.2 c2s v z4m

[Angelus666]

Went for a bit of blast this afternoon with a mate and his 997.2 c2s pdk vs the MC...it was surprising at how closely matched the two cars are, with the porky having just that bit more poke in the mid range.

It was my mates first go in an MC and he was hugely impressed, it made a better more visceral noise, felt more compelling and exciting to be in....gave him a lot of food for thought!

 

[buzyg]

The only surprise is he could keep up. :wink:

 

[ga41]

Really twisty roads are a great equaliser between cars, add the driver factor and a slower car can comfortably keep up with faster machinery. Demonstrated to me excellently by a quick friend of mine with a Honda S2000! :lol:

Our Z's are great cars but they're not as quick as a C2S, especially with the PDK box... Sounds like you had fun though!

 

[Scaramanga]

Having had both, I have to say the C2S is in a different league. But it's also at a v different price-point.

997.2 C2S likely £40k+, which makes the Z4MC much cheaper.

Don't get me wrong, if money was no object I'd have both!!

 

[tomscott]

Really twisty roads are a great equaliser between cars, add the driver factor and a slower car can comfortably keep up with faster machinery. Demonstrated to me excellently by a quick friend of mine with a Honda S2000! :lol:

Our Z's are great cars but they're not as quick as a C2S, especially with the PDK box... Sounds like you had fun though!

+1 the M is incredible fun but as a complete car out of the box it doesn't come close to the 911.

Now they are hitting 30k+ I would have the 911.2 all day long.

 

[nickw6666]

Interesting comments. I have a Porsche 997.1 C2S 2007 with sports exhaust and 19" Fuchs Alloys from the SportClassic.

I bought it to replace my Z4M coupe 2007 which I have owned for 9 years. Having owned the 911 for 5 months now, I can honestly say that the Z4M coupe is the slightly more desirable car to me. I have a dilemma now as I have held back from selling my Z4M coupe as I actually like it better than the 911 in many respects.

The S54 in the Z4M coupe is in a different league to the 911 engine. It feels weapons grade whereas the M97 in the 997.1 is good but nowhere near as ferocious or as hard revving as the S54. It sounds muted without the sports exhaust, certainly compared to the angry T-Rex roar of the S54. The 997.2 direct injection engine is entirely lacking in character, and needs a sports exhaust to sound even half good.

I have found that the 911 feels very much like my old 986 Boxster, just with more power and with a rear weight bias thanks to the rear engine. So much for premium feel. My Boxster 2.7 actually sounded much better to me than the 911, as it howls much louder under hard acceleration.

The only area that the 911 feels better to me is in the brakes, and actually that is really only the pedal feel and the resistance to fade, not the actual stopping power.

The 911 has a poor ride, as the Z4M, but no better. It has a poor driving position compared to Z4M, with legs angled into the middle of the cockpit, fouling against the centre console. The interior is nicely trimmed with the full leather, but actually feels flimsy compared to the Z4M. I think I could remove the centre console in the 911 with one hand and no tools. The Z4M centre console feels far more solid.

Don't get me wrong, I think the 911 is a great car still, but it is not significantly better than the Z4M all round. It's better in some areas, and not so good in others for me. Obviously it has benefitted from constant development and refinement over the years, and the the motoring press have built the 911 up to be better than it really is, helped by the halo cars such as the GT3.

So overall, as good as the 911 is, it does not embarrass the Z4M coupe and in many ways for me is actually inferior.

I suppose it depends on what you want from the car. The Z4M is definitely the more raw experience.

Think hard before you let your cars go folks!

 

[Jaw]

Interesting comments. I have a Porsche 997.1 C2S 2007 with sports exhaust and 19" Fuchs Alloys from the SportClassic.

I bought it to replace my Z4M coupe 2007 which I have owned for 9 years. Having owned the 911 for 5 months now, I can honestly say that the Z4M coupe is the slightly more desirable car to me. I have a dilemma now as I have held back from selling my Z4M coupe as I actually like it better than the 911 in many respects.

The S54 in the Z4M coupe is in a different league to the 911 engine. It feels weapons grade whereas the M97 in the 997.1 is good but nowhere near as ferocious or as hard revving as the S54. It sounds muted without the sports exhaust, certainly compared to the angry T-Rex roar of the S54. The 997.2 direct injection engine is entirely lacking in character, and needs a sports exhaust to sound even half good.

I have found that the 911 feels very much like my old 986 Boxster, just with more power and with a rear weight bias thanks to the rear engine. So much for premium feel. My Boxster 2.7 actually sounded much better to me than the 911, as it howls much louder under hard acceleration.

The only area that the 911 feels better to me is in the brakes, and actually that is really only the pedal feel and the resistance to fade, not the actual stopping power.

The 911 has a poor ride, as the Z4M, but no better. It has a poor driving position compared to Z4M, with legs angled into the middle of the cockpit, fouling against the centre console. The interior is nicely trimmed with the full leather, but actually feels flimsy compared to the Z4M. I think I could remove the centre console in the 911 with one hand and no tools. The Z4M centre console feels far more solid.

Don't get me wrong, I think the 911 is a great car still, but it is not significantly better than the Z4M all round. It's better in some areas, and not so good in others for me. Obviously it has benefitted from constant development and refinement over the years, and the the motoring press have built the 911 up to be better than it really is, helped by the halo cars such as the GT3.

So overall, as good as the 911 is, it does not embarrass the Z4M coupe and in many ways for me is actually inferior.

I suppose it depends on what you want from the car. The Z4M is definitely the more raw experience.

Think hard before you let your cars go folks!

I think a lot of it's subjective, most things there are 'feels' which I guess will always vary between people. I love the driving position of the 911 (996) compared to the z4 - I do prefer the dash in the Z4 though, always have done. I think it's also one of those things in standard form where the 'benefits' of the Porsche only really turn up when you're trying to hoon around some serious twisties even then they're too different to be compared with much like for likeliness. Have to remember that it's a case of the 'top of the line' Z4 really vs the entry level Carrera too. The factory options on the 911's change things drastically and that's before you start thinking about the other variants.

Must say that a standard 996/997c2/cayman never appealed to me after a few test drives. But one with factory enhancements / a higher spec (eg even the carrera power pack and sports exhause) is something to behold compared to the boggo 'rerra.. My 911's a different league to my old Z4 but has a lot of factory options / aftermarket factory mods which makes it a hard one to mix up for me, because some choice mods bring the Z4M Up a league too. A z4m will never handle like a 911 - but that's part of what I loved about them!

 

[cj10jeeper]

Interesting read but comparing driving performance on simple road drives is very difficult. The experience I agree with.

In most situations a decent 2.0 diesel hatch is a real challenge for a Zed to keep up with. Beedub has posted that his 500hp ///M struggled to match my 3.0 auto on standard road and adherence to the law..

I sat in the 718 Boxster and Cayman variants yesterday and while lovely cars I'd never swap out of the Zed for one, especially as I'd have to add £50k to the deal. Just not the same experience..

 

[nickw6666]

My 997.1 is not the standard car, but the Carrera 2S with 355bhp. Compared to Z4M 343bhp.

I agree all of this is subjective and down to personal opinion, it's not about 0-60 or lap times. For me the stand out point is that the Z4M can be considered as a serious used rival to the 911. Having driven many 911's, including GT3 and GT2, and also taken my Z4M on track, and now owning both cars which has allowed me to drive them back to back over the same road, I believe even more that the Z4M is currently a stunning bargain.

Either car will provide plenty of smiles!

 

[paulgs1000]

It was mentioned above as well but for me comparative price v performance when taken into account is a massive factor. . . .

All very interesting reading

 

[Jaw]

I believe even more that the Z4M is currently a stunning bargain.

Either car will provide plenty of smiles!

Couldn't agree more with that! honestly can't think of much in the same price bracket (and even slightly beyond) that can deliver half of what the M does.

 

[Viren]

I believe even more that the Z4M is currently a stunning bargain.

Either car will provide plenty of smiles!

Couldn't agree more with that! honestly can't think of much in the same price bracket (and even slightly beyond) that can deliver half of what the M does.

Exactly the problem I'm having with finding my next car. The world has moved towards dct turbos and more daily usability. If you want a 'raw' car which feels special the options are now limited to 60k plus cars (cayman gt4 type). If you throw 15k at your zed you will have a car which is capable of keeping up with today's special cars. So it really is a difficult decision. Also porsches are great cars but 45k will buy you a car which is not much quicker than a standard z4m and is alot more common.

 

[tomscott]

The other problem is that the S54 is very unlikely to go wrong in comparison.

I bought a 987 Boxster S earlier in the year and the engine let go in the first two weeks of owning it which has pretty much put me off anything of the 99-2008 cars. The comparison to your boxster is valid because it uses 90% the same parts as the 911 including the engine, doors etc the 997 just has a more bored out variant, has more power and the engine is in a different place.

The Boxster and Cayman only actually became its own car in 2012 when they made bespoke parts specifically for it. They made the wheel base longer and shortened the doors, the main issue being the doors were straight off an 911 which is a bigger car. The 981s are in another league again amazing cars.

All said I had my Z4M for about 3 years with my dad having the 911 997 Cs at the same time and always took the piss about the value for money prospect. Because at the time my Z4M was 17.5k on 40k miles in 2011 and his was more than double but only had 7k on it when bought. Other than that I disagree with most of your observations but they are all subjective and personal.

The 911s pedal and driving position is far better making it a much better car to drive. The 911s engine I would say is equal to that of the Z. I always thought the M coupe was quiet with the best bit being the rasp, the convertible sounds better because you can actually hear it. The Cs with the sports exhaust sounds better imo. Took the Cs for a 3000 mile road trip around Europe and not only is it a fantastic sports car it can be a brilliant GT which the Z just isn't, my Z had H&R springs and was spine shaking, as standard its not much better, the Porsche had adjustable suspension making it more comfortable. Not sure about your Cs but the cabin had the extended leather and the sports seats with the x amount of adjustment and also have the wings at the top which might be the difference, the standard seats are pants. The zs interior isn't that luxurious although nice and in all honesty wears poorly. Hardly any Z4Ms were speced with extended leather which does make them feel more luxurious but the plastic of the main console for example :thumbsdown: It does feel like it was made as a project rather than a well thought through campaign like the other BMWs.

The main thing the Z has going for it is that it 'was' cheap and unloved, at 30k I don't think they are the bargain people say but then anything without a turbo is shooting through the roof so maybe it still is. It is an oddity in the fact they weren't popular therefore barely any were sold and are rare, the S54 is marvellous and that it is a really beautiful design, one of the best looking BMWs ever made. But I stick to my original thoughts that the 911 is in a different league and better out of the box but it should be as it was twice the money at 75k start for a Cs and the Z was about 40k.

Spend the money on the Z sorting the suspension add a strut brace, a good geo and some sticky tyres and it proves itself time and again against the best, maybe not as quite as good but at half or less the price.

If your not keen on the 911 which many aren't, it takes time to get to used to it and try and stick with it. Many people I speak to think they are antiquated and not that quick but they are a joy to drive on twisty roads and get the engine high up the range and leave it up there and its such a fantastic experience. When I first started driving the 911 I was really frustrated with it because the Z has so much down low grunt and the 911 doesn't until 3500-4k. Took me a while to get used to driving it in a different manor.

 

[Babw]

I agree with much of what tomscott says above apart from the GT aspect. The 991 has improved considerably but the 997 was a terrible cruiser, the tyre roar and tramlining became quite tedious.

The pedal placement, seating position, brake feel, steering feel and general balance was much better in the 911. The steering feel especially is something BMW can't seem to get right, they seem to have this artificial weight without much feel. Something like an Elise that has much lighter steering but is far more immediate/communicative. The brake pedal feel and steering communication are the first things you notice in something that's been built ground up as a bespoke sports car i.e Audi R8 has completely different steering and brake feel to all other Audi's even the RS models. BMW tend to do parts bin cars which I tend to think of as factory modified cars - E85 sort of spawned out of an E46 parts bin.

Z4M is no doubt an interesting and fun car, of course modifying to will make it faster on track but at the detriment of road use. I think the 911 is the benchmark for a road going sports car and I don't think BMW have yet made a car that competes with it.