Z4 2.5 "Tuning" and Rolling Road Dyno (Pics/Vid)

PawnSacrifice

Lifer
South Oxfordshire
Back in February I booked my car in with A-L Tuning to have an Eisenmann exhaust and Carbonio induction kit fitted. Mike, from A-L Tuning, said that with those changes and a live remap they could achieve a 10-15bhp increase :o . I was very sceptical, but Mike stood his ground and suggested I could get an independent dyno. By ordering the lot in one go he agreed an additional discount (which essentially got the remap for free!). So why not. My only concern at this point was their fiddling with the delivery to make it feel faster. Apparently they just needed to tell me it was (see below).

I had a look on the web for dyno people and DK Engineering came up. I'd heard of them before, and that they have a good reputation. Very good. For DKE's rolling road credentials they did the baseline power testing for the BMW Kumho Cup. There is a link at the bottom to a gallery thread I posted from my visit. The first run, before stats, was done in early March, timed to be just before the work on the car. At that point it was about 4C.

The exhaust was fitted a little while later but the wrong induction kit had been sent. So more waiting and all the time ambient temperatures rising. A-L Tuning had done the remap anyway but this would be tweaked live when induction kit eventually went on. Shocking delays from the guys shipping the induction kit, which I understand can happen. I reached the end of my teather I and demanded the shipping reference or my money back. Receiving the former I checked online and found the induction kit had shipped days rather than weeks before :x . Enough. I spoke to Mike and he has agreed a refund for the induction kit. I do believe that he was acting in good faith.

Frustrating things, I was going to get the nice carbon induction kit noise and I wasn't going to see this through. Also, in the time I had been waiting for the second dyno I had run exactly the same fuel and even kept the same wheels and tyres (which I have sold).
At the end of it all I was curious to see if there had been any difference with the exhaust and remap. Also, I just wanted to reassure myself that things were as they should be. So on Tuesday of this week I got myself down to DK Engineering for the second run – accepting that I had changed the wheels, had a full alignment and was running different fuel. Also, it was 24C.

The Dyno setup, for those unfamiliar with the process:
Somewhere back there things are being inserted into the car, actually it was a temperature probe which was eventually hung on the grill in front of the air intake.
DKEng_1.jpg

At the front of the car is a massive fan to help with cooling and also to simulate the air flow of a moving car.
DKEng_2.jpg

The rear wheels of the car sit on rollers, behind that the extractors. There is a sensor in the exhaust to monitor the fuelling.
Z4_June_Comp.jpg

The front wheels are chocked and the back is strapped down, basically to stop the car from going anywhere.

As I can’t help myself at the moment, here is the video of the day two run:
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Results
This is the HP / Fuel graph. The 005 run was from March, 007 and 008 from Tuesday - with and without the sports button pressed.
DK_BHP_FUEL.jpg

I asked if they could do a run with and without Sport on as A-L Tuning told me they'd done something special with Sport mode. Power wise it's the same, as you'd expect. I have to say though, since learning that they’d done something special the car did feel zippier, especially through third :oops: . *placebo* I may be stupid, but at least I'm being honest about it.

This is the HP / Torque graph. I was surprised how early the max torque comes in, nice flat line too.
DK_BHP_TORQUE.jpg

In rough terms:
1. The car has lost a few HP over the years. Happy with that. That is to say, its to be expected.
2. The car has not lost any HP after the exhaust and remap - this is far too common, Adrian almost seemed surprised! He told me about some of the cars people had bought in from other tuners with similar claims – including a 360 with a fancy exhaust which had lost around 40hp!
3. It doesn't really show it on the graph, but the fuelling did jump around a couple times (running very rich and lean) and it made little difference to the figures. I assume this illustrates how futile adding an induction kit and doing nothing else would be, computer takes it out.
There was a difference in barometric pressure between the two days. Adrian said that he had not adjusted the day two run figures to match day one; he hadn't done this as the automatic settings, he believes, over compensate. He did say that the figures for day two would have increased. I didn't bother with the exercise as it would have just been for vanity.

I am still curious to know what difference the induction kit would make.

Photos of the really interesting stuff...
DK Engineering - Italian Exotica!

Thanks to DK Engineering and A-L Tuning. Also, thanks to Dave, (Mr Whippy) for his help on the science stuff - especially his patience. (I am still going to get some of the GTech data up once it's through the spreadsheet).
 
Wow, why didnt i see this before?? Great post, very ineteresting!

Firstly Pawn, what fuel were you running on? Are they really before and after remap? Did they change anything at all??

I wouldn't say your car has lost power at all. Dyno Dynamics rolling roads are reputedly harsh on NA cars, almost to the point i dont believe them at all. Ive been to a few in my NA VX220 days with friends with their Remapped TDI's. Whereas the TDi's ran same numbers on the Dyno Dynamics, Dynojet and Piper rollers; mine always ran about 15bhp (10%) down on JUST the Dyno Dynamics ones. They also don't seem to do a coast-down for calculation of transmission losses, so it must be just calculated magically or something... :rofl:

Also, that fan is a bit piddly. It will be giving the car nowhere near as much air as it needs at high rpm... This may be why the torque peaks so early...

The AFR graph looks pretty perfect however, getting slightly too lean at higher RPM but nothing too bad - 12.8:1 is ideal for maximum power. :thumbsup:

I bet that on any other rolling road, you'll get more. Also dont worry about the induction kit. The Z4 has a ram-air design and will be the best short of ITB's. Its amazing how changing intake pathways on non Forced Induction cars can wreck the AFR as the Fuel Rail often uses the intake vaccum as a pressure regulator (although i dont know if this is true on the M54!).

Would love to get mine on some rollers soonish :)
 
EdButler said:
Wow, why didnt i see this before?? Great post, very ineteresting!
Thanks Ed, I thought I'd better be thorough to avoid a complete flaming, ironically nothing but :tumbleweed:

Good to have some feedback from someone who knows what they're talking about.

EdButler said:
Firstly Pawn, what fuel were you running on? Are they really before and after remap? Did they change anything at all??
This was running BP's high octane fuel, I usually use Shell Optimax but a couple weeks before I had no choice but to fill up at BP. A combination of your fuel thread last year and discussions with Mr Whippy about good science I realised I should run the BP fuel and a second tank through so I the engine had adjusted by the time of the first run. And then keep using it for the next few months.

To be fair the remap hadn't been done fully - it would have been tweaked when the induction kit went on, that's when Mike at A-L Tuning said I'd see the change. He wouldn't tell me what they do for the remap (secret sauce type scenario), but looking at the results (assuming they did do the remap) I'm wondering if it tells the car not to adjust for the extra air flow?

The new exhaust has gone on, but other than that no changes were made to the car. Am sure the carbon kit would have complimented the exhaust nicely 8) But yes, they are before and after. The big difference is psychological as, even having seen the results; I'm convinced it feels quicker on the flat through third. At least that's where I think I notice an improvement.


EdButler said:
I wouldn't say your car has lost power at all. Dyno Dynamics rolling roads are reputedly harsh on NA cars, almost to the point i dont believe them at all. Ive been to a few in my NA VX220 days with friends with their Remapped TDI's. Whereas the TDi's ran same numbers on the Dyno Dynamics, Dynojet and Piper rollers; mine always ran about 15bhp (10%) down on JUST the Dyno Dynamics ones. They also don't seem to do a coast-down for calculation of transmission losses, so it must be just calculated magically or something... :rofl:
Interesting that. I was expecting to lose a little power over 6 years and the result was where I thought it would be. He did say that when the did the benchmarking for the Kumho Cup there were some complaints of low-balling the results, especially from guys who'd spent a lot tuning their NA cars and the results being lower than those provided by the tuning company.

I understand the Dymo Dynamics is sensitive to tyre pressure. One of the Kumho guys objected to having his car run at the correct tyre pressures, say 32PSI. After they did a few runs he dropped them to around 26PSI and the dyno results improved dramatically. But that is odd as you ran the VX220 at quite low PSI on Vreds?

The Dyno Dynamics computer can make an allowance for changes in barometric pressure. I know there was quite a gulf between the two runs, one was really cold, the other baking hot! Adrian did offer to adjust this for me manually - he believes that the automatic computations over compensate. I didn't bother, while it would have been flattering I was only interesting in making sure the power curve hadn't been fiddled with to give the impression of improved performance.

Like you say, I found the whole experience quite fascinating. Rather than gauging real figures I wanted to see what the comparison was between the before and after. I am really curious to know though what difference an induction kit would have made just because it has been cause for so much debate on here and other forums.
 
Yeah i heard about the tyre pressure thing too, the VX ran 24psi rear so maybe that was a factor? Even other NA cars on the day ran terribly... I seem to remember a Stock Clio 182 on the same day running 159bhp (23 down), running on 95 Octane fuel... The operator said that it was mostly due to the fuel, but i think he was talking rubbish.

Like you say though, its how it feels that counts :) Also dynos do not show partial throttle (closed loop operation) or indeed responsiveness so theyre not the be all and end all.

Did you request against a RPM limiter increase? Remaps to NA's usually net their best gain with a slightly raised limit, say 6750-6800 on an M54...
 
Yeah I completely missed this post too. I have no idea what most of it, or the graphs mean, but it was interesting and it distracted me from working.
Thanks :)
 
EdButler said:
Did you request against a RPM limiter increase? Remaps to NA's usually net their best gain with a slightly raised limit, say 6750-6800 on an M54...

I need to pay attention and run it up to see, but I think they may have raised the limit in Sport mode. Although the graph still drops off at the same point?

The other thing I got out of this exercise, seeing the point of diminishing returns.

Tired, don't entirely understand a lot of it myself - seems Ed has gotten more from the data than I did :oops:
 
I'm another one who missed this post, glad I caught it :)

Sounds like you've gone into this with the right sort of mind set to get some interesting stuff out of it, but not be dissapointed by a lack of gains or by not being given huge numbers. Definitely the best way to do it IMHO :)

Always what it drives like that really matters!
 
Very interesting read. Always been curious about a dyno to see if it's at least near to factory power.

How much does one set you back?
 
Siftah said:
Sounds like you've gone into this with the right sort of mind set to get some interesting stuff out of it, but not be dissapointed by a lack of gains or by not being given huge numbers. Definitely the best way to do it IMHO :)

Always what it drives like that really matters!

Decision to get it done was based entirely on making sure they weren't messing up the power delivery. After the first one was done though I was really keen to go back... I find this whole thing fascinating!

daveg said:
How much does one set you back?

First one was £50 + vat... second one was a little more, due to my wasting time messing about taking footage. May be worth looking into what sort of machines the rolling road guys are using and which is best - Ed's obviously had some experience in this area. Not sure how accurate it will be though - my dyno runs were purely to check the variance between before and after, so how accurate the HP result were didn't really matter.

There may be other people on here who wouldn't mind checking their power... might be worth a group booking? That way even if HP figures aren't completely accurate it will give your car a comparison among its peers - although someone is likely to leave feeling a little unhappy!
 
PawnSacrifice said:
There may be other people on here who wouldn't mind checking their power... might be worth a group booking? That way even if HP figures aren't completely accurate it will give your car a comparison among its peers - although someone is likely to leave feeling a little unhappy!

Tis a good idea that - I did similar years ago with the Mini owning people. It was interesting as the Mini peeps would constantly 'argue' (in good spirit) about who's car was quickest and who's tuning efforts had been the most successful. Having everyone together on the Dyno at the same time gave a nice benchmark.

The Z4 owners I've met so far have been totally different and seemingly entirely uninterested in HP or modifying the cars, but it'd be interesting as a comparison and I suspect it'd be a interesting exercise purely in the sense that many of our cars are approaching 7 years old and it'd be good to see how they're fairing up against newer ones, ie; if it's lost power then maybe it's time for some maintenance etc.

It'd also just be a good excuse to all stand around and chat about cars like we usually do :)
 
Thanks Matt,

I'm in Siftah, when you organising it for!

Would love to know if my VANOS is actually faulty and the car down on power or just faulty sensor and this seems a fun way to do it :wink:
 
daveg said:
Thanks Matt,

I'm in Siftah, when you organising it for!

Would love to know if my VANOS is actually faulty and the car down on power or just faulty sensor and this seems a fun way to do it :wink:

It'll be >September if I do as my weekends are pretty much booked up until ~October at the moment, maybe make a good winter meet though? Happy to organise if people are interested :)
 
I'd just been pondering in my head whether AutoTech in Telford have a rolling road (have just emailed to ask).

They've got very good reviews on their service for BMW's and it'd make sense to use them as they could do re-coding on the cars too, so it'd be a good way of getting a meet up at a place that knows the cars and could do re-coding and rolling road all at the same time - work out good for them hopefully and good for us.

Though... I do hear a certain someone else can do re-coding too... :)
 
Hi,

I'm after some general advice first of all: I'm looking at buying a 03-05 Z4 3.0 - I have seen the post's about the rear suspension issues that people have had but does anyone have any other pointers for buying a z4

Also quick question - What (if any) induction kit do people recommend for the Z4?

Cheers
 
popey1 said:
Hi,

I'm after some general advice first of all: I'm looking at buying a 03-05 Z4 3.0 - I have seen the post's about the rear suspension issues that people have had but does anyone have any other pointers for buying a z4

Also quick question - What (if any) induction kit do people recommend for the Z4?

Cheers

Welcome to the Forum popey1, your questions have all been answered and a quick search or 2 will yield all!

Start off by checking out Andy's FAQ for common issues etc: http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15177

Most would recommend you do NOT change the airbox, the BMW one is more than adequate. If its noise you're after, the 3.0i has a sound generator that transmits noise into the cabin (this can be VERY loud with all dampening foam removed). This noise cannot be heard outside however :)

Dont worry about the rear springs too much, mine are fine after 53k and driven in all weather :thumbsup:
 
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