BMW Z4M E86 - S54 marbles in a can type noise - possible Vanos
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Thanks for the additional pointers. I've added more images to my original post.
When I removed the top cover , everything was very clean, no sludge or varnish to speak of. Car has full history (serviced every year) and only has 24K miles.
Thanks Andy. It has been driving me mad tbh. Very grateful for your inputAll this thread has proved is that there's lot's of different opinions, and no-one knows *for sure* exactly what is going on.
I've read all the replies on this thread and some of it doesn't add up with my own experience, some does and some I've not tested like pressure for example (still no explanation as to why pressure would cause an issue with the exhaust side and not the inlet side and vice versa so I'm doubting that personally).
Worth noting that not everyone has the tools / space / expertise to do all this testing / VANOS work so it's all money spent at a garage messing about.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do Steve, don't drive yourself mad over it instead of enjoying the car, it drives well so I'd leave alone if your happy the big failure points are sorted. Bet you wish you'd never asked!
Quick one Steve out of interest, is your VANOS unit the original unit as in never been replaced / exchanged?
Thanks Andy. It has been driving me mad tbh. Very grateful for your input
If I remember, when I take the car out the garage in April, I'll post a video of mine starting up from cold, imagine it's much the same sound as yours.
I believe it to be original and there is nothing in the history file to suggest otherwise. Its also only covered 24K miles.All this thread has proved is that there's lot's of different opinions, and no-one knows *for sure* exactly what is going on.
I've read all the replies on this thread and some of it doesn't add up with my own experience, some does and some I've not tested like pressure for example (still no explanation as to why pressure would cause an issue with the exhaust side and not the inlet side and vice versa so I'm doubting that personally).
Worth noting that not everyone has the tools / space / expertise to do all this testing / VANOS work so it's all money spent at a garage messing about.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do Steve, don't drive yourself mad over it instead of enjoying the car, it drives well so I'd leave alone if your happy the big failure points are sorted. Bet you wish you'd never asked!
Quick one Steve out of interest, is your VANOS unit the original unit as in never been replaced / exchanged?
Yup almost certainly original then, interesting. I’ve never actually seen another car be out of tolerance on the leak test like mine, yours is the first so at least I’m not the only one!
Just to add, mine hasn’t always failed that leak test, though I used to run the test in DIS before ISTA became a thing. It has always made the noise though at startup and drive ability has never been an issue or changed as far as I can tell, so riddle me that! Also done many track days with no issues on that side.
Sounds like normal VANOS noise when cold IMO. Pretty sure mine sounds a bit like that, tends to make a bit of noise when cold due to the thick oil. If it goes away when it's warmed up a bit I wouldn't be worrying about it. I would go out to mine and start it up and show you but it's having a rest after a, busy summer let's say! Edit: I've listened again and almost certain mine sounds exactly the same.
You can do anti rattle kits but I really wouldn't bother, my advice for a while now has been don't touch the VANOS if you don't need to, can go down an unnecessary and expensive rabbit hole with it.
If the bolts have been upgraded with the newer versions and the tabs aren't broken then that's the main parts that can cause issues. If you were doing that work then changing out the seals isn't a bad idea either but the VANOS test you've done can give you good idea of health. (Most of the pics you've posted by the way are just the bits before the actual test result, may as well delete those as it makes it a bit of a chore scrolling through them!).
Interestingly the leak test is out of spec on the intake side on yours, mine's out of spec on the exhaust sideThat's got nothing to do with the noise by the way, mine's not always been out of spec and has always had a bit of a noise from cold, just interesting to note! Rest of the VANOS tests all good?
Noise > I wouldn't worry. Leak test I wouldn't worry either. You've got no error codes, car runs and pulls fine, tabs aren't broken and bolts aren't loose / backing out. Drive and enjoy. It's not going to grenade itself if the bits mentioned are fine.
Source for this info, VANOS refurb, VANOS replaced with a refurb unit, lots of money spent and lots of specialist advice along the way (Redish, Everything M3's, Spartan Auto). And a lot of money wasted
Attached my VANOS test results from last year for reference if it helps:
View attachment 291493View attachment 291494View attachment 291495View attachment 291496View attachment 291497View attachment 291498View attachment 291499View attachment 291500
Steve,I would completely agree with Andy....the noise sounded fairly normal to me.
Having read the rest of this thread,I too would point out,like Andy and others,and I've possibly mentioned to you,that my Vanos was replaced with a rebuilt unit by MrVanos.....as a preventative measure,back in 2021. I had never had any issues with it,but did have other things that may have ,or not as it turned out,been Vanos related.
But in hindsight, I wouldn't get the Vanos done again if I were to do it over,but knowing what I later found out. Like others,I went down the Vanos rebuild rabbit hole,and wouldn't again.
As Andy etc said,I wouldn't worry,especially at only 24k mls.
I admit there is some comfort in knowing you are not alone but its like an itch that I can't leave.
The marbles noise has not always been there. I recall it started as a very feint noise on deceleration from 2000rpm (I struggled to hear it tbh) before I did all the valve clearances, but nothing like it is now. This could be a red herring, but I swear it got worse after I cleaned/blew out and changed the O rings on the vanos pressure limiting (reducing) valve. I have read elsewhere about owners adjusting this factory set valve to quieten the vanos. I think the practice emanated from BMW Techs in Sweden, but don't hold me to that.
I have bought a high pressure oil pressure gauge and adaptors to check the vanos pressure, which I understand should be circa 115 Bar when cold. If it proves to be low then possibly a vanos pressure limiting (reducing) valve adjustment/or replacement might be worth a go.
Hi Craig, I hear you mate, but as said earlier, its like an itch that I can't leave alone!
Is 115 bar at operating temp. To adjust the valve you do it at lower oil temps to set it at 115, that said, when hot, if you have lower pressure, adjusting the valve changes nothing as you are not reaching its setpoint. If you want to make sure is working or set correctly, connect the gauge and start the engine, very sure u will see 115, the key is, does it keep 115 when hot?
My car had 40bar when hot with an aftermarket disc, then improved to 80 with a BMW genuine item, and I wish I knew how was the pressure when it was all original, but that is now impossible
My new unit is indeed 115, and my adjustment times are now in the low 200s, before they were 300s when I had 40bar
I went to hell and back, changed everything I could, even the nitrogen accumulator, and solenoid assembly with a new genuine part and nothing solved the issue until I replaced the unit
The moral is, measure pressure, if good, u can rebuild seals with confidence, if not, don’t bother and just get a new unit now that they still exist. They are 1500, and come with solenoid pack and valve body so is not horrible.
That is why I always tel people, test and go from there.
My car had 40bar when hot with an aftermarket disc, then improved to 80 with a BMW genuine item, and I wish I knew how was the pressure when it was all original, but that is now impossible
My new unit is indeed 115, and my adjustment times are now in the low 200s, before they were 300s when I had 40bar
I went to hell and back, changed everything I could, even the nitrogen accumulator, and solenoid assembly with a new genuine part and nothing solved the issue until I replaced the unit
The moral is, measure pressure, if good, u can rebuild seals with confidence, if not, don’t bother and just get a new unit now that they still exist. They are 1500, and come with solenoid pack and valve body so is not horrible.
That is why I always tel people, test and go from there.
Thanks, checking the Vanos pressure is my first/next step. Hopefully, this weekend!
Totally get this, honestly, it annoyed me for ages and I toyed with getting the refurb unit from Hack last year and having done with it. But that would put my on my 3rd VANOS unit, which is madness TBH money wise when all that's wrong with it is the leak test. Oh and the labour on top to fit it of course!
As for the response times test, no way anyone's telling me there's a noticeable difference in real world driving between 200ms and 300ms so not interested in that.
Logically, if the bits that can go bang have been done, the bolts backing out and the pump disc tabs breaking, then the rest is just chasing an issue that doesn't really matter, that's how I've justified leaving it be, I'll run it until it gives me an actual issue. Doesn't stop it being annoying, but better things to spend money on (nudge...carbon airbox
).You are in a better position than me though having not spent any money on it so far presumably, which is why I suggested do it once and do it right if you have to. There's no guarantee replacing seals is going to fix either of your 'issues', and that's when you go down the rabbit hole of both cost and time and even potentially starting to resent the car if it doesn't help. If you can do the work yourself obviously that would help, still be time consuming though.
I don't know where the chap above is from but I can't believe you can get a brand new VANOS in the UK from BMW for £1500, more like £2k I imagine, at least, and that's if it's in stock. I could be wrong though. I believe the part number is 11367838161 if you care to check. I guess if it is that much it's not outrageous, still pretty unpleasant for a car on 20k miles though. What's to say a new unit won't do exactly the same in another 20k as well.......
My only reason for recommending Hack was that I would imagine if you had any issues after using theirs, they would likely stand by it and their rebuild process and knowledge seems pretty comprehensive. It's who I would use personally but obviously others are available and that's just my opinion.
The only other tip I could give you is if you go towards replacing the accumulator regards to pressure issues, there's a guy on eBay who will service yours and send it back for around £85. Easy to replace as well so a relatively low cost thing to rule out. Think a few guys on Cutters have used him with no issues. Link: Vanos.acc
I think I've exhausted what I can offer on this thread, there's more I could add, but I think you've been given most of the relevant advice and it tends to end up going round in circles! Let us know how it goes, I'd be interested in what route you decide to take and what the result is.
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Well, the bottom line is that if you can't pass a VANOS test, your unit has a problem. Every healthy unit will pass. Mine was in rough shape and still passed all the tests before I rebuilt it.All this thread has proved is that there's lot's of different opinions, and no-one knows *for sure* exactly what is going on.
I've read all the replies on this thread and some of it doesn't add up with my own experience, some does and some I've not tested like pressure for example (still no explanation as to why pressure would cause an issue with the exhaust side and not the inlet side and vice versa so I'm doubting that personally).
Worth noting that not everyone has the tools / space / expertise to do all this testing / VANOS work so it's all money spent at a garage messing about.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do Steve, don't drive yourself mad over it instead of enjoying the car, it drives well so I'd leave alone if your happy the big failure points are sorted. Bet you wish you'd never asked!
Quick one Steve out of interest, is your VANOS unit the original unit as in never been replaced / exchanged?
Well yeah, obviously, when did I say it didn't have a 'problem'? If you read the whole thread my point is what issue is it causing (none I can tell) and how much more time and money do I put in to a problem that has no noticeable effect?
Everything on it has had the usual 'uprated' parts / seals, no difference. So a whole new unit? No, as I've explained above. Cost vs Reward. I might do the accumulator at some point as it's a cheap part to sort.
I think the perspective of giving a blind eye to an issue just because it drives normal is not best, it can be right for you, but that does not make it right from an engineering point of view.
The OP asked for input, and I think he got some, I wish someone would have given me this level of input to make informed decisions (with data) about my car. There are people out there that have spent time and money to test different parts on their cars.
BTW, a new unit can be had from Beisan directly, as well as bimmer world
beisansystems.com
www.bimmerworld.com
You can ask Beisan to skip some of the services they do, like re-drilling the disc, and they would lower the cost. I actually paid 1500 for a new unit from them in 2024 for an unmolested unit, I chose to go the VAC hub route to solve the play issue, which is real.
Lastly, I have to say I laugh at those specialists saying their units are proven and tested when all they do is connect the BMW tool to operate the solenoids with a 20psi airline, that only tells the solenoids turn on, but does not test at all the unit's ability to deliver its specified performance. that tool is design for the shop to be able to install and setup the timing correctly, not to test the unit.
I think the OP has been left with several points of views and links to what good working units deliver when tested in DIS or ISTA, what to look for and he now can choose what works for him.
The OP asked for input, and I think he got some, I wish someone would have given me this level of input to make informed decisions (with data) about my car. There are people out there that have spent time and money to test different parts on their cars.
BTW, a new unit can be had from Beisan directly, as well as bimmer world
[BS100] New BMW OEM + Beisan Upgrade S54 Vanos E46 M3 + Z4M $1,990.00 + $500 Core Charge
New BMW OEM + BeisanBrand new OEM S54 Vanos unit BMW #11367838161 upgraded with Beisan-Systems parts!Includes a $500 core charge
beisansystems.com
Brand New Genuine BMW VANOS Unit for S54 - E46 M3, MZ3, Z4M
Genuine BMW Complete S54 VANOS Unit with a 2 Year Warranty<div id=
You can ask Beisan to skip some of the services they do, like re-drilling the disc, and they would lower the cost. I actually paid 1500 for a new unit from them in 2024 for an unmolested unit, I chose to go the VAC hub route to solve the play issue, which is real.
Lastly, I have to say I laugh at those specialists saying their units are proven and tested when all they do is connect the BMW tool to operate the solenoids with a 20psi airline, that only tells the solenoids turn on, but does not test at all the unit's ability to deliver its specified performance. that tool is design for the shop to be able to install and setup the timing correctly, not to test the unit.
I think the OP has been left with several points of views and links to what good working units deliver when tested in DIS or ISTA, what to look for and he now can choose what works for him.
Maybe not from an engineering point of view, and I'm not an engineer, obviously, but a lot of these engines are going up in mileage now, there's likely all kind of bits which are no longer optimal so how far do you go before it becomes a bit obsessive and a money pit?
What did you actually gain from all your fettling with it out of interest? Did you gain power / torque that's been verified? Has their been any recorded mechanical failures from a failed leak test? Not being facetious, honestly interested. That's the only two things that matter to me with my non engineering brain and I see no data on that or even anecdotal evidence linked to the leak test.
You've obviously got a lot of knowledge which I respect but nothing that's been said has given me reason personally to look into it again, IMO.
If I had your expertise and tools and (I wish) time to look into it more, I would have done, I don't though but fair play to you for doing so, honestly, there's some interesting stuff in there
Both of those units you've posted are from the US by the way, so can add import tax, VAT and shipping to that, so around 2k in British money or thereabouts I imagine.
Absolutely right though, it's the OP's car / money, he's free to do however he wishes, I genuinely hope he get's it sorted.
Don't mean to sound argumentative by the way, I agree with a lot of what you've said. Your second to last paragraph, I don't know about that specifically but there was / has certainly been a lot of scaremongering around the VANOS that has made a lot of businesses a lot of money!
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I do have a z4m but this story is not from that but from the m52tu I had in my z3. After adding cat cams we had a similar sounding rattle we could not find. Vanos rattle kit applied. No change. New factory vanos applied. No change. New m52tu chain tensioner applied. No change. S54 chain tensioner used. Noise gone.
Perhaps a cheap and easy change is a new chain tensioner. It's a simple job. The only thing against this advice is that you say your noise goes away when the oil thins out. If the tensioner is suspect it usually gets worse with thin oil as the spring is assisted by hydraulic pressure.
And by the way I think your engine is quiet for an s54. They are busy sounding engines. Yours sounds just like mine. Although if you'd are failing vanos tests that can't be good. Unusual at such low miles. Did the car stand for ages?
Perhaps a cheap and easy change is a new chain tensioner. It's a simple job. The only thing against this advice is that you say your noise goes away when the oil thins out. If the tensioner is suspect it usually gets worse with thin oil as the spring is assisted by hydraulic pressure.
And by the way I think your engine is quiet for an s54. They are busy sounding engines. Yours sounds just like mine. Although if you'd are failing vanos tests that can't be good. Unusual at such low miles. Did the car stand for ages?
Yes, I have to agree it is quiet, especially since I adjusted the valve clearances but it wasn't that noisy before to be honest.
I guess, based on such a low mileage, that's its spent most of its life sitting rather than being driven. However, it has a great service history, so it hasn't been neglected or abused as far as I can tell and certainly not in my ownership.
I know cars, bikes etc prefer to be driven/ridden but what in particular (with regards the current status) might have been affected by it just sitting for a while?
Interesting that you mentioned the chain adjuster. A while back I noticed oil weeping from the sealing aluminium washer and realised that it wasn't torqued properly. I decided to remove the adjuster to check its action. It was full of oil as expected and I could compress the spring/plunger. It was quite stiff, almost notchy in action but I had nothing to compare so couldn't say whether that was right or not. After refitting, I must admit it was much noisier until the oil had filtered through once again.
Thanks Sajk.