BMW Z4M E86 - S54 marbles in a can type noise - possible Vanos

[Nooms1]

Hi All,

I have a noise which appears to be from the engines top end, possibly Vanos!

The marbles in a can type noise can be heard from 1min 20 secs and from 1min 55 secs into the video . The noise completely disappears when the oil gets warm (circa 5-10mins).

I have recently completed a full valve clearance check and adjust and all intake and exhaust valve clearances are set at mid spec.

I checked that the Vanos oil pump disc tabs (Exh cam) were not broken and ensured there were no loose or broken bolts/screws. I have no known external oil leaks.

The car starts easily, runs /idles perfectly and pulls well through the rev range without hesitation. There are no fault codes and returns a decent 23 - 29 mpg.

I have researched this matter to death but still cannot confirm the cause and/or find a solution.

The internet (Youtube) is awash with suspected Vanos noise issues. I have only heard the exact same noise on one other Z4M via youtube. The guy did before and after videos following a Beisan vanos rebuild and the marbles in a can type sound was in both. He has since reported the noise disappeared on its own at a later date.

I have a full BMW ISTA Vanos test report and only one parameter appears to be out of specification, which I list below. I have attached images from the Vanos test below.

Readout actual steering axis inclination of the Vanos intake = 130 degrees (setpoint value = 115 degrees +/_ 5 degrees crankshaft angle).

Any help to resolve this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Steve

 

[AndyBeech]

Sounds like normal VANOS noise when cold IMO. Pretty sure mine sounds a bit like that, tends to make a bit of noise when cold due to the thick oil. If it goes away when it's warmed up a bit I wouldn't be worrying about it. I would go out to mine and start it up and show you but it's having a rest after a, busy summer let's say! Edit: I've listened again and almost certain mine sounds exactly the same.

You can do anti rattle kits but I really wouldn't bother, my advice for a while now has been don't touch the VANOS if you don't need to, can go down an unnecessary and expensive rabbit hole with it.
If the bolts have been upgraded with the newer versions and the tabs aren't broken then that's the main parts that can cause issues. If you were doing that work then changing out the seals isn't a bad idea either but the VANOS test you've done can give you good idea of health. (Most of the pics you've posted by the way are just the bits before the actual test result, may as well delete those as it makes it a bit of a chore scrolling through them!).

Interestingly the leak test is out of spec on the intake side on yours, mine's out of spec on the exhaust side That's got nothing to do with the noise by the way, mine's not always been out of spec and has always had a bit of a noise from cold, just interesting to note! Rest of the VANOS tests all good?

Noise > I wouldn't worry. Leak test I wouldn't worry either. You've got no error codes, car runs and pulls fine, tabs aren't broken and bolts aren't loose / backing out. Drive and enjoy. It's not going to grenade itself if the bits mentioned are fine.
Source for this info, VANOS refurb, VANOS replaced with a refurb unit, lots of money spent and lots of specialist advice along the way (Redish, Everything M3's, Spartan Auto). And a lot of money wasted

Attached my VANOS test results from last year for reference if it helps:

 

[Nooms1]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your detailed response and guidance.

I read about others going down the Vanos £££ rabbit hole as well, so your advice is well heeded.

I will trim down on the amount of pics, as suggested.

 

[AndyBeech]

I don't know how long you've had the car Steve but you do get used to all the 'normal' noises the engine makes eventually, which is good as you know quickly when something definitely isn't right. They are noisy beasts, especially when cold because of the oil thickness, but what you have sounds completely normal to me.

For context, I've had the VANOS on and off so many times one of the threads for a bolt that holds the VANOS to the head completely stripped last summer, which was a total pain in the a-hole. They're only about 7nm of torque and clearly aren't designed to be taken on and off as much as it has been! I'll do a post on it when it's back out from the garage next month but it basically culminated in a head off job, nearly 2k, though I did do the head gasket at the same time even though that was fine.
And all because I got paranoid about normal noises when I first brought the car and then subsequently the leak test not being in spec I've spent well over the cost of a fully fitted and tuned carbon airbox on the VANOS over the years, lesson learnt!

My only advice for anyone else that is thinking of messing with the VANOS if you must, is do it once and do it right. Buy a recon unit that's been tested and has all the nice bits installed on it already from somewhere reputable like Hack Engineering, change the plastic chain guide that can break and have done with it. I would've saved thousands if I'd done that in the first place!

 

[tomscott]

Sounds ok to me!

 

[Nooms1]

I don't know how long you've had the car Steve but you do get used to all the 'normal' noises the engine makes eventually, which is good as you know quickly when something definitely isn't right. They are noisy beasts, especially when cold because of the oil thickness, but what you have sounds completely normal to me.

For context, I've had the VANOS on and off so many times one of the threads for a bolt that holds the VANOS to the head completely stripped last summer, which was a total pain in the a-hole. They're only about 7nm of torque and clearly aren't designed to be taken on and off as much as it has been! I'll do a post on it when it's back out from the garage next month but it basically culminated in a head off job, nearly 2k, though I did do the head gasket at the same time even though that was fine.
And all because I got paranoid about normal noises when I first brought the car and then subsequently the leak test not being in spec I've spent well over the cost of a fully fitted and tuned carbon airbox on the VANOS over the years, lesson learnt!

My only advice for anyone else that is thinking of messing with the VANOS if you must, is do it once and do it right. Buy a recon unit that's been tested and has all the nice bits installed on it already from somewhere reputable like Hack Engineering, change the plastic chain guide that can break and have done with it. I would've saved thousands if I'd done that in the first place!

Yes, the noises (I know its character really!). Maybe being deaf is a prerequisite to owning one. However, the flipside is that when on song, they sound totally amazing!

Sorry to hear of your woes, a painful experience indeed! I feel that I was starting to go down a similar path. To date, I have just spent loads of time researching the matter with little extra cost, so thanks for sharing your experience and for the warning.

If I require any repairs to the Vanos or decide to future proof it, then I will definitely follow your recommendations.

 

[Mr Tidy]

I've never noticed mine sounding like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't!

But if it runs fine and pulls well that suggests there isn't a Vanos issue, especially if the noise goes away when warm.

Now I'll have my ears tuned in next time I drive it!

 

[AndyBeech]

I've never noticed mine sounding like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't!

It's from a stone cold start only, pop the bonnet and listen, no need to rev it, wager you have something similar. It'll be the VANOS gears rattling, can *probably* get rid of it with the anti rattle kit if you really wanted as they reduce the tolerances but I wouldn't bother it won't be doing any harm.

 

[mmm-five]

Due to my loud exhaust, I only ever hear it when I'm going slowly down a country road with walls close by...with the windows open...as the noise echoes off the walls.

 

[MrPT]

The normal/infamous vanos rattle is best heard on the motorway, as RPM-wise its annoyingly close to the speed limit in 6th.

As others have said, nothing really stands out in that video, but it’s always hard to tell with phone vids. If you ever get an Inspection 2 (or ad hoc valve shim adjustment) you’ll probably start hearing all kinds of other weird stuff because the prominent tappetty noise decreases.

I think it’s the injector tick which bounces off tunnel walls, concrete barriers etc and can sometimes be mistaken for more serious issues.

 

[maupineda]

your testing report is showing you have a timing issue and is actually ending prematurely. so you need to start there.

The noise is indeed not normal, the marbles as you rev the engine and it comes back to idle are normal, but once at idle, it should not sound.

Buy the timing tools (genuine) and open the valve cover and see where you are timing wise. if there are no DTC, seems is just bad timing, your car is outside the +/-5 degree tolerance. I would also do a Vanos pressure test, but seems to be mechanical in nature. Open INPA and have a look at your VANOS adaptations too confirm.

 

[AndyBeech]

your testing report is showing you have a timing issue and is actually ending prematurely. so you need to start there.

The noise is indeed not normal, the marbles as you rev the engine and it comes back to idle are normal, but once at idle, it should not sound.

Buy the timing tools (genuine) and open the valve cover and see where you are timing wise. if there are no DTC, seems is just bad timing, your car is outside the +/-5 degree tolerance. I would also do a Vanos pressure test, but seems to be mechanical in nature. Open INPA and have a look at your VANOS adaptations too confirm.

Mine makes the same noise from cold for about 2 minutes as per the OP, always has done, with 2 different VANOS units, latter being fully refurbished. Noise goes away after the initial warm up. Maybe it's chain related rather than VANOS?

It's been timed properly multiple times by different specialists using genuine tools. I doubt it's anything to do with timing.

What I can't explain is the leak test being outside of spec on only one side of the VANOS, mine on the exhaust, OP on the intake. I do know it doesn't seem to cause performance issues and gives no codes and 2 well regarded specialists have said not to worry about it. Mystery tbh!

 

[maupineda]

290ms response timing is not a concern, tolerance is up to 500ms. I have a brand new Vanos unit in my Z, and now both sides are within 200ms (except for one cam), when engine is at full temp the numbers improve a bit.

Here my test results

Results are as follows

Camshaft Positioning
Advance Exhaust 128DEG
Retard Exhaust 80DEG
Advance Intake 70DEG
Retard Intake 130 DEG

Exhust Adjustment
Early adjustment: 195
Late adjustment: 293

Intake Adjustment
Early adjustment: 196
Late adjustment: 195

Leak test came at 2DEG for both camshafts.

The OP report images show the car is exiting the test as it is not reaching the set points. either his timing is off, or his VANOS unit cannot move to the commanded position.

 

[maupineda]

I had a lot of back and forth with others in the M3 forum about test results, etc. feel free to have a read

S54 Diaphragm Springs and Exhaust Hub - NA M3 Forums

A bit of context, about 4 years ago I "bullet proofed" my VANOS, and that sent me down a rabbit hole unnecessarily. so word of caution is, do limit the scope of your work to what is actually needed addressed, and avoid following internet advise blindly. For me, the key learnings from that...

nam3forum.com

but images 5 and 6 of the OP indicate his test is failing.

 

[AndyBeech]

but images 5 and 6 of the OP indicate his test is failing.

They indicate the leak test for the inlet is out of tolerance yes, don't think that's being disputed. There is no other test results from the OP other than the leak tests. If you look at my tests, they are all in tolerance, pretty much bang on apart from the exhaust leak test which is out of tolerance by 15 degrees, the same amount as the OP's leak test on the inlet. Still don't see how that's got anything to do with timing and it's not the valve body as I've tried a different one with the same results?

If you know the answer then your better than all the specialists I've consulted (including Besian) and I'd appreciate the advice
It's not timing though, there's no way you can tell me numerous specialists I've used that pretty much exclusively work on S54's have all got it wrong, unless the chain is bad but this has never been mentioned but guess it's possible as it's never been changed.

Fact is as far as I've learnt, no-one can seem to point the finger at one particular thing but if it was really a problem, the engine would throw a code, which it doesn't, so why doesn't it?

The first line in your post about going down a rabbit hole unnecessarily I can certainly agree with but honestly if you have knowledge about the leak test please share, would be appreciated

 

[0l0dom0l0]

I've just done my vanos and it was an interesting learning curve that opened a can of worms for me. So much mis information and out of date information.

Firstly, I learned that not doing a vanos test before stripping things down to get a benchmark means you are blind to your after results. At least you have done that, although I can't see the results.

I also learned that swapping out your oil pump disc for a re drilled one from some other unknown vanos unit is a risk, and will potentially lead to low vanos oil pressure.
Any response times sub 220ms are more than likely a sign that your oil pressure is lower than the target 115 bar. Despite the tolerance being 500ms, all instances that I've read up on where the response time was less than 220 have had sub optimal oil pressure in the unit, primarily caused from swapping out the oil pump disc.

I'm also afraid to say that I do not think besian are the experts, they have missed a fundamental component of the vanos system in my opinion. If you look at the oil pump disc and shaft, they are labelled "a" and "b". My conclusion is that all vanos units from the factory are toleranced and paired, an "a" disc goes with an "a" shaft and that this is what the "a" and "b" helps identify. They are absolutely not batch numbers as claimed by besian. Any untouched factory fit vanos unit that I've seen has a matching letter on the pump and disc - not coincidental.

Doing mine again, with the knowledge I have now, I would replace the cam chain guide, replace the bolts that snap and lock tite them in (as I did), and fit a VAC exhaust hub with the larger tabs and leave the vanos unit alone if it passed all the other tests. My freshly rebuilt vanos unit shows 3 degrees of leakage, I expect it was exactly the same before it was rebuilt.

Anti rattle kits are not needed and nor are S62 diaphram springs. I replaced my diaphram springs with new, standard S54 springs, which were slightly taller on the bench, from less fatigue. If the S54 needed the S62 springs, bmw would have superceded them. Simple as that.

So back to the ops noise - I'm not sure what it is, however it did sound very similar to mine before I did my vanos rebuild and mine is almost silent now.

As your car is not passing all the vanos testsn, to me it says you should open things up. I'd start by doing the exhaust cam bolts and timing chain guide, then consider replacing the exhaust hub, or potentially re drilling your own vanos oil pump disc.

As above my car is noticeably quieter after I did mine and I attribute it to the oil pump disc.

Oh and in addition, get your vanos accumulator recharged with nitrogen. Mine was down to 10 bar. It helps with driveability.

If you do open things up and want some help then more than happy to help. Re timing the engine was very simple, not anywhere near as complex as people make it out to be.

 

[Nooms1]

I've just done my vanos and it was an interesting learning curve that opened a can of worms for me. So much mis information and out of date information.

Firstly, I learned that not doing a vanos test before stripping things down to get a benchmark means you are blind to your after results. At least you have done that, although I can't see the results.

I also learned that swapping out your oil pump disc for a re drilled one from some other unknown vanos unit is a risk, and will potentially lead to low vanos oil pressure.
Any response times sub 220ms are more than likely a sign that your oil pressure is lower than the target 115 bar. Despite the tolerance being 500ms, all instances that I've read up on where the response time was less than 220 have had sub optimal oil pressure in the unit, primarily caused from swapping out the oil pump disc.

I'm also afraid to say that I do not think besian are the experts, they have missed a fundamental component of the vanos system in my opinion. If you look at the oil pump disc and shaft, they are labelled "a" and "b". My conclusion is that all vanos units from the factory are toleranced and paired, an "a" disc goes with an "a" shaft and that this is what the "a" and "b" helps identify. They are absolutely not batch numbers as claimed by besian. Any untouched factory fit vanos unit that I've seen has a matching letter on the pump and disc - not coincidental.

Doing mine again, with the knowledge I have now, I would replace the cam chain guide, replace the bolts that snap and lock tite them in, and fit a VAC exhaust hub with the larger tabs and leave the vanos unit alone if it passed all the other tests. My freshly rebuilt vanos unit shows 3 degrees of leakage, I expect it was exactly the same before it was rebuilt.

Anti rattle kits are not needed and nor are S62 diaphram springs. I replaced my diaphram springs with new, standard S54 springs, which were slightly taller on the bench, from less fatigue. If the S54 needed the S62 springs, bmw would have superceded them. Simple as that.

So back to the ops noise - I'm not sure what it is, however it did sound very similar to mine before I did my vanos rebuild and mine is almost silent now.

As your car is not passing all the vanos testsitto me it says you should open things up. I'd start by doing the exhaust cam bolts and timing chain guide, then consider replacing the exhaust hub, or potentially re drilling your own vanos oil pump disc.

As above my car is noticeably quieter after I did mine and I attribute it to the oil pump disc.

Oh and in addition, get your vanos accumulator recharged with nitrogen. Mine was down to 10 bar. It helps with driveability.

If you do open things up and want some help then mlre than happy to help. Re timing the engine was very simple, not anywhere near as complex as people make it out to be.

Very interesting to hear of your experience, so thanks for sharing and for your offer to help us. I have uploaded the images again (more info) into my original post, as I did not do a great job initially.

I am struggling with this to be honest as my car runs so well, its just the marbles in a can type noise until the oil gets warm.

There was a very feint noise on deceleration (struggled to hear it tbh) before I did all the valve clearances, but nothing like it is now. This could be a red herring, but I swear it got worse after I cleaned/blew out and changed the O rings on the vanos pressure limiting valve. I have read elsewhere about owners adjusting this factory set valve to quieten the vanos. I think the practice emanated from BMW Techs in Sweden, but don't hold me to that.

 

[Nooms1]

290ms response timing is not a concern, tolerance is up to 500ms. I have a brand new Vanos unit in my Z, and now both sides are within 200ms (except for one cam), when engine is at full temp the numbers improve a bit.

Here my test results

Results are as follows

Camshaft Positioning
Advance Exhaust 128DEG
Retard Exhaust 80DEG
Advance Intake 70DEG
Retard Intake 130 DEG

Exhust Adjustment
Early adjustment: 195
Late adjustment: 293

Intake Adjustment
Early adjustment: 196
Late adjustment: 195

Leak test came at 2DEG for both camshafts.

The OP report images show the car is exiting the test as it is not reaching the set points. either his timing is off, or his VANOS unit cannot move to the commanded position.

Many thanks for your input and for endeavouring to help us with this issue. I have read many of your posts before trying to understand/resolve my issue.

 

[maupineda]

I missed one important aspect as your images were not sequential and complete, I missed that the 15 degree deviation was on the leak test, not timing checks.

15 degree deviation is massive and can be several things

Low pressure
Worn seals
Worn solenoid block seats
Clogged solenoid block avoiding proper oil chaneling

These units are very basic and clever in principle and the oil can only flow in few pathways.

If you couple your slowish adjustments times with your leakage failure, I would look at the things above.

Cleaning the solenoid block is easy and you do not need to take the cam cover apart, so start there.

If after clean you still have the issue then seals maybe worn, what is the mileage on the car, and how clean was you head? If I showed how mine looks you would dare to think is a new engine, original owners followed BMW recommendations for oil change and that leads to sludge build up that can bloc oil passages.

As very well said above, DO NOT, use S62 springs nor exchange your oil disc with some other unit.

Lastly, do a pressure test before any serious mechanical work.

Low pressure and leakage can result in noise as the VANOS cannot hold cam position. So it makes sense that a leaky unit can make more noise as the cams timing shift back and forth as pressure leaks and vanos solenoids compensate for that, if this happens, the oil disc rocks back and forth on the tabs making noise.

 

[AndyBeech]

All this thread has proved is that there's lot's of different opinions, and no-one knows *for sure* exactly what is going on.

I've read all the replies on this thread and some of it doesn't add up with my own experience, some does and some I've not tested like pressure for example (still no explanation as to why pressure would cause an issue with the exhaust side and not the inlet side and vice versa so I'm doubting that personally).
Worth noting that not everyone has the tools / space / expertise to do all this testing / VANOS work so it's all money spent at a garage messing about.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do Steve, don't drive yourself mad over it instead of enjoying the car, it drives well so I'd leave alone if your happy the big failure points are sorted. Bet you wish you'd never asked!

Quick one Steve out of interest, is your VANOS unit the original unit as in never been replaced / exchanged?