Z4M coupe v Porsche 911 997.1 C2S comparison.

jimmybell · Post by **jimmybell** » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:34 pm

indeed. unbeatable engine, sadly :/ facelift with PPP +(30bhp etc) + LSD ;d great car, i must say. Was a gamble purchasing it but totally understand the hype around them - not as precise as BMW - i suspect largely due to the extra weight they add trying to make it luxurious, but much more thrilling for everyday use.

petrolhead88 · Post by **petrolhead88** » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:47 pm

Interesting comparison. What are your thoughts on throttle pedal feel?
I think the Z4M pedal feel is a big weakness, as the throttle pedal seems like it's not connected to anything. Is this better at all in the 997?

Beedub · Post by **Beedub** » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:18 pm

petrolhead88 wrote:Interesting comparison. What are your thoughts on throttle pedal feel?
I think the Z4M pedal feel is a big weakness, as the throttle pedal seems like it's not connected to anything. Is this better at all in the 997?

thats the first time I've ever read someone comment on that.... are you sure your pedal spring isn't broken???

abar121 · Post by **abar121** » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:13 pm

I can only think your're comparing the throttle to something that isn't drive by wire. i.e. has a cable throttle.

The Z4M throttle is a lot quicker to react and is more responsive than most of it's age. Certainly a lot less delay than other E85/6s in my experience.

The DBW throttles on the GT86 and ND MX5s are better. But then they've had another ten years to think about it

BMWZ4MC · Post by **BMWZ4MC** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:20 am

Very interesting discussion.

abar121 wrote:....Just to add, a friend both a Z4M Coupe and a lovely 996 MK1 GT3. Both in rude health and made for a fantastic comparison. Surprisingly, the Z4M was just a little quicker on acceleration and would always edge away.

I used to regularly go head to head with a 996 GT3 on a variety of tracks, and my Z4MC was the faster car (at the time it was only lightly modified from stock). The 997 GT3, however, was a different proposition!

abar121 wrote:I can only think your're comparing the throttle to something that isn't drive by wire. i.e. has a cable throttle.

The Z4M throttle is a lot quicker to react and is more responsive than most of it's age. Certainly a lot less delay than other E85/6s in my experience.

The DBW throttles on the GT86 and ND MX5s are better. But then they've had another ten years to think about it

I hate the fly-by-wire throttle of the ///M - I wish it were simple to change it to a cable setup. It makes heel-and-toe much more difficult than it needs to be and I'm convinced that the nature of the throttle response during the early part of the pedal travel is the reason why the ///M is difficult to drive at low speed with a cold engine. The only circumstance in which it really works well is at ten tenths on the track, and I suspect that is a reflection of not needing precise throttle modulation during that early part of pedal travel when driving hard.

petrolhead88 · Post by **petrolhead88** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:27 am

Beedub wrote:
petrolhead88 wrote:thats the first time I've ever read someone comment on that.... are you sure your pedal spring isn't broken???

Definitely not. I've found other M cars to be the same, and a friend with an E46 M3 had the same comments about his car.

As other forum members have now commented, it's difficult to modulate throttle and feed in the power.
I'd say this is the biggest downfall of the Z4M, the rest of the car is sublime.

nickw6666 · Post by **nickw6666** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:22 am

I don't believe the Z4M throttle is difficult to modulate in non-sport setting.

The throttle response is amazing from the engine and the pedal well matched against that.

In sport mode setting, I think the throttle is too aggressive. I've used my car on track and I've found the throttle response and pedal action really good.

nickw6666 · Post by **nickw6666** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:37 am

Time to post a few pics of my Z4M coupe and 911 997 Gen1 C2S which I've comparing as part of this thread.

Beedub · Post by **Beedub** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:07 am

nickw6666 wrote:I don't believe the Z4M throttle is difficult to modulate in non-sport setting.

The throttle response is amazing from the engine and the pedal well matched against that.

In sport mode setting, I think the throttle is too aggressive. I've used my car on track and I've found the throttle response and pedal action really good.

totally agree tbh.

Gustavo7 · Post by **Gustavo7** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:42 am

Indeed the throttle sensitivity in sport mode is very high.

It's virtually impossible for someone who doesn't know the car well to drive smoothly in sport mode.

sport mode + cold engine don't match, but then why would one be on sport mode with cold a engine eheh

it was only after many many hours of driving that I started to extract joy from the sport mode and I do press the button when driving in a more spirited way now, and it does work best with DSC off. Best way to describe it: if guns had a sport mode your finger would be pressing the trigger at all times, just not the enough to pull it.

BMWZ4MC · Post by **BMWZ4MC** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:08 am

Out of sport mode, the first centimetre of throttle pedal travel does little. It's improved with sports mode, but overall the fly-by-wire throttle is a poor substitute for a throttle cable. I'd love to find someone who could write a different map for the throttle to more closely match the behaviour of a cable set up, specifically removing the initial dead pedal travel.
I'd quite like to programme out the preemptive boost in brake servo pressure that occurs in response to rapid throttle closure too. It's supposed to be a safety feature for an impending emergency stop, but I find it can interfere with modulating the brakes on the track.
That's a nice choice if cars for the daily commute Nick. I ran an S2000 as my daily driver for a while next to my Zed and every journey was a pleasure

abar121 · Post by **abar121** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:49 pm

I'd love to also be able to convert the Z4M pedal to cable and remove some of the over-servo'd sensation from the brakes. I still think the DBW throttle is one of the better installations, but it still has the odd flatspot / hiccup. The delay is there whether you use the sport button or not. It's just a question of if you want to be able to use the full throttle travel, or just the first 2/3ds.

It's a bit like comparing the throttle on an N52 equipped 330i vs a Z4 3.0si. In the Z4 you get a really slack throttle with quite a delay in normal mode, or the same delay but over what feels like half the travel in sport mode. The 330i does without the sport button, yet the throttle feels slightly better everywhere and was more natural to heel and toe for me. Nothing like as responsive as the M though.

It can be done much better though. I was riding a Yamaha MT10 with DBW the other day. The electronic throttle is very sensitive and quick to react compared to any car I've driven. It has to be though, throttle response is much more critical on a bike, even just balancing a bike when manoeuvring. Also ND MX5s and GT86s have much less delay and more natural feeling throttles and even pretty good EPAS systems.

A nice 997.1 review released today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6vlVdY2Fr8

I have to echo his comments at 11:30 re: PASM. A complete waste of time really, stock it's fine, but the sport mode just leaves it over-damped, without any handling benefit. Another placebo type feature with no real benefit

Viren · Post by **Viren** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:17 pm

I find at low speed or city driving the throttle is quite frustrating, however at medium to high speed the throttle is fine, anything above 2.5krpm is sweet. Every car has its character this is the zeds, it sulks at low speed and sings at high speed.

petrolhead88 · Post by **petrolhead88** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:34 pm

nickw6666 wrote:I don't believe the Z4M throttle is difficult to modulate in non-sport setting.

The throttle response is amazing from the engine and the pedal well matched against that.

I think the issue is the first 2cm of pedal travel does next to nothing. This makes rev matching and heel & toe difficult in normal mode. It's easier in sport mode, but then it's jerky when pulling away.

Aside from that, it's the feel of the throttle pedal that I have issue with. It just feels very light and offers little feedback.

TomK · Post by **TomK** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:21 pm

petrolhead88 wrote:
nickw6666 wrote:I don't believe the Z4M throttle is difficult to modulate in non-sport setting.

The throttle response is amazing from the engine and the pedal well matched against that.
I think the issue is the first 2cm of pedal travel does next to nothing. This makes rev matching and heel & toe difficult in normal mode. It's easier in sport mode, but then it's jerky when pulling away.

Aside from that, it's the feel of the throttle pedal that I have issue with. It just feels very light and offers little feedback.

I think I've commented on your throttle thoughts before, but in case not I will reiterate that I think you really ought to get yours checked out. I drive mine exclusively in non sports mode and have immediate pickup from the throttle (if anything I would prefer something very slightly less aggressive to modulate better). I have also driven my friend's z4M quite a bit and found the throttle behavior to be pretty much identical.
Throttle lightness/heaviness I can't really comment on as I don't know what you're comparing it to, however I found it not to be much difference to my old 968. The throttle map in my e46 M3 is non sports mode was horrible and had the feeling you describe of no power for the first few cm of travel. With that car I did have to use the sport mode which was annoying as it's so much more binary.

ETA: maybe try and compare with a local member?

Z4-forum.com

Z4-forum.com